I stand corrected, and rightfully so. I was inadvertently dismissive when I described her quality as a streak...it isn't that transient (to be a streak) it's a quality borne of her life experiences and her assertiveness and the vision she has of her future. So starts my lesson.

Addressing a disconnect between "bitch and angel" (Blushes words!) ...I wish she was here so that we could kick this can around...I wonder if /when she feels that? Though I feel I would be speaking out of turn to comment on her feelings.
I cant wait til we talk tonight ...now I want to dig into this with her!

But pondering my "feeling safe" thing. This feeling is new for me. I trust her, with my heart and I trust her with our future, one that we are building together...and from this trust comes a feeling of safety. Who she is (separate and independent from the "us" that we are creating) is where the trust started. Her values, her code, her strengths, her armor, her fierceness, her assertiveness, her charm, her manners, her emotions. She is not just one of these, but an ever shifting culmination of these qualities and more.

This thread has my head spinning...

I am engrossed in the different discussions going on here, and thrilled with the information and personal opinion that is being presented.

While I haven't seen this in your posts, TPT--maybe because you were already changing by the time we started interacting?--I have experienced it from others. I call it "gatekeeping" behavior. People have beliefs that are vitally important to them--usually they involve "Truth" in some manifestation--and they seem to feel driven to keep others from expressing anything different.

I like this. It's pretty much how I try to handle things as well; I will speak about my opinions, I will stand up for people who seem to need it, but I don't need to argue nor do I need to "defeat" anyone. Other people's opinions cannot change the truth of my life, of my being.... and I do not have the right to try to change the truth of their lives, no matter how wrong I think they might be. It was a hard path learning these lessons. Thank you for a chance to reflect on them again.

I don't think it's horrible and I don't think it's a whole nuther thread, either.... I think it speaks to deep lifelong conditioning as a female, which certainly impacts anyone as a Femme, especially as she tries to find her voice in adulthood. I had the same kind of conditioning from my mother... she didn't have to die for me to break at least partially free, but I DID have to invoke the Geographical Cure and move halfway across the country, yanno?

I was one of those newbies, but I do have to say that it was the SERIOUS threads which did me more damage than the joke threads, even though both played a role. I'm really glad that the serious "how to be a Femme" threads have all long since fallen by the wayside.

I. Love. Your. Dream. World.

Amazingly enough, mine looks just like it! :cheesy:

I have to go offline--a friend just called to say she's bringing over a piece of furniture she doesn't need anymore!! Wooohooo! Storage!--so I'll talk to y'all later.

Sorry if I mis-spoke or didn't perceive right. I caught "relegated" and "unseen" in perusing this fast. I'll sit back now. Thanks, June

I'm sorry, I had no idea that femmes were treated this way. It's very alien to me considering how I regard femmes. Thanks for responding.

I am using your post super duper Femme to write my own letter to the baby femme that is me. We hear about baby butches a lot. I am a baby femme at the ripe old age of 43! Anyway this is me writing to the new fresh femme me. Yes this is all about me. Hee hee.

Dear Baby Femme-

Why are you scared of femmes? Why do you feel like you are back in the sixth grade? Why are you intimidated by someone who identifies as a high femme? I think it is because you feel less than. I think it is coming from inside and not how anyone else identifies. Can you see that? Can you see that creating hierarchies is bad for you?

I know you feel like a big loser sometimes because you are new. I know you feel defined by others because your first and only partner is a transmasculine butch. It's ok for you to identify and call yourself whatever you like.

It's scary to be in a group of women. That has sometimes not gone so well for you in the past. I know it is easier to focus on the masculine beings in your midst.

I know you feel out of place in a group of femmes without the straight married mom mask you used to wear. It is just another aspect of coming out. Maybe life can be more now than just talking about kids, vacations, home renovations and other things that never interested you in the first place. I know you have seen how exciting it is to be around people who talk about ideas instead of things.

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Love You very very much my sweet baby femme.

Julie

TD, I'd like to know to whom you're directing this question and the tone with which you ask it.

I own Brazen Femme too.

This is my absolute, all-time favorite essay on femme. There was a time when I'd placed "Quantum Femme" as my identity in that space over there
<---
on another b/f website.

My fucking god.

Thank you for reminding me.

Thank you for using these exact words. Until I came across this thread, I had been composing a thread titled "Living Less Than" to broach this very real issue.

One of the biggest struggles I have had in adapting to living with/caring for my precious motherinlaw is her very entrenched view of men/males and women/females.

I love my motherinlaw. I treat her as I would want one of my sisterinlaw's to treat my mother. And yet, she is the bane of my existence at times.

She is ENAMORED with men. Period. Doesn't matter the character of the man - if he was born with a penis, its her job/duty/obligation as a less than woman to cater to his every need. Nothing pisses me off more than watching her dote over the uneducated redneck who we have hired to perform some type of manual labor around the house. She sat, for over two hours, while the plumber worked on our well pump. Not did she sit there and distract a man with prattle while he was being paid by the hour, she also made sure he had ice water. The selfadmitted illiterate handyguy down the street for whom she cooks a full blown, southern Sunday dinner. I won't even get started on her view of her son, the unmedicated bipolar, raging alcoholic, unemployed idiot. Nothing is EVER a man's fault - its always "one of them whores".

In all my nearly 40 years have I ever, ever seen this level of kowtowing to males. Never have I felt the need to cook a meal for someone I was paying by the hour. Doubt I ever will.

Imagine how difficult it is to watch this play out, day after day. Yes, I was raised by a mother with a similar background and is in the same generation. However, I was taught that I could achieve anything I desired. I could be, do, have just the same as my brothers. I would like to think that it was my father's way of forming me into what I now call being a "grown ass woman."

This might have been a slight derail and for that, I apologize. I do think that as we talk about femme issues that this is relevant and how we overcome it, bypass it or defeat it is important.

I am tired of being told or it being inferred that I am less than because of my gender. It is very contradictory in what I see in the mirror, what I present to the world and how I move through the world.

My femme is not always wrapped in a nice pretty package with that disarming southern drawl. Sometimes she is. Sometimes she is that abrasive, bitchy tall redhead in lovely, lovely stilettoes that can be hurled at one's head in a nanosecond.

Either way, one thing is consistent... she is me... my truth... my strength... every day.

Christie

This is for both Blush and Kosmo, and really anyone else that thought I might be asserting something negative(?) about a particular set of gay males.

Relational Aggression is a theory of social psychology. I believe that whenever it is not acceptable or ALLOWABLE for the human animal to attend to their aggressions openly as masculine people more often do (via threats, intimidation, posturing or acts of socially condoned violence) that she or he will attend to them in a relational way. So not only do we see these behaviors in the culture of certain gay males, but also in the business/organizational culture.

I simply didn't want to go into all of that as it isn't relative to the feminine people on the whole and how women and girls are primarily socialized.

Male supporter here, invited, swear!

I want to touch on what e is talking about here. I think it's important to recognize that regardless of the culture or subculture, femininity never fails to be the scapegoat. If you look at the gay male community (with which I'm more familiar than even this one), masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("girl is such a nelly queen"). If you look at the lesbian/butch-femme community, masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("she looks straight, she's not a real femme" or "she always takes up for trans men, she's "rolling over for the men.")

I think we tend to overlook the ways in which many of us are drawn toward certain gender expressions, even when they contradict our socialization. The fact that there are young feminine boy and masculine girl children suggests that gender expression often precedes or supercedes gender norms. We must look at it in terms of biological as well as social constructs or else everything becomes a choice (gender, sexuality) which supports all kinds of wrong patriarchal ideas about the people here on this website.

That's why instead of constantly critiquing femininity, we should recognize that it exists on its own independent of anything else (as is being talked about in here) and can offer its own rewards to those who naturally gravitate to it, whether female or male. We need to recognize that assuming femininity is weak, passive, and only exists to appease, stroke, reassure men/masculine is one way this community is promoting the male-centric atmosphere that inspired this thread. We have to strip femininity from its negative connotations to free femme. I wonder if this has to happen before we can dislocate masculinity and change notions of it.

Yes, and yes again.

Somebody remember to bring the underlined up every few pages whenever we begin to spiral downward.

I also wanted to say way back there, but have gotten distracted, that I personally and absofuckinglutely acknowledge and allow that femme is not just female, not just girl/woman.

I know some pretty kick-ass boy femmes and others and, for me, they only expand the possibilities of what-all this experience will allow.

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?