oh boy
 

Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

1. Ahhhhhhhh, thanks. I don't watch The Larry.

2. UGH with the stereotyping. Yeah, I agree...speaking in terms of stereotypes would totally diminish the actual situation.

2a) on a side note, I DO believe in some differences I didn't used to believe in...but I'm still totally agreeing with what you've said here.

3. Oh, I know...I was agreeing with you too. It's so annoying.

4. I agree.

5. Good points...thanks for the perspective


Dylan

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

I included off the top of my head famous cheaters and cheaters who became famous.

As for sleeping around during separation? That is usually between a couple and can be very subjective depending on the lunacy of one or the other. When I divorced, sleeping around like a whore in a Navy port was fine.

So yeah. If you don't have a tv use your google powers.

Just because the Reverend doesn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Meg Ryan cheated with Russell Crowe, not Antonio, I think. Either way, she went the way of the manly man.

Mary Kay Laterneau was a teacher that had sex and babies with a student. I believe he was...14 when the first baby was born. She was married and had 4 or 5 kids already.

Anne Heche cheated on Ellen with a man....a camera guy?

Thanks for the info. I certainly didn't say it didn't happen...merely said I didn't know about it. Which really isn't all that surprising considering I don't pay attention to celebrity gossip.

Sooooo, would you have slept around like a whore in a Navy port if you hadn't been able to (for whatever reason) get divorced? And if yes, would that have been acceptable? That was really my point.


Dylan

i thought this thread was about lying cheating sacks of shit, which has shit to do with gender..?

(unless of course it's a MAN who thinks cheating is a means to navigating his manhood--i've absolutely seen that behavior/justification.)

Yes, sex addicts need help. Are Tiger Woods or Sandra Bullocks' husband sex addicts? I doubt it. So why do they hold this up as their recovery plan? Because we like our celebrity spokespeople to be squeeky clean and this is all they need to do, come clean seek professional help and *poof they're cured and better in our eyes, right? Rather than call a spade a spade, you cheated, you got caught, that wasn't your original agreement--they turn it into a "medical" problem and that absolves them. The "they" is publicists.

Cheating is cheating--if you suddenly want to run around on your spouse, significant other, girlfriend, boyfriend best be up front and have that talk WAY before another pops into the picture.

As others have said polyamory and open relationships are not about cheating or taking advantage of another person. It takes hard work to have these kind of relationships.

The "one and only" concept works for many and monogomany as polyamory are valid expressions of ones preference for relationships. The holier than thou attitude--I could not stand someone else touching the one I love, or I give them my all and could not share them--interesting commentar y but certainly a little laced with unconscious condescension.

Is monogamy an idea that is fading? I think yes and no, I think lots of people leave relationships immediately after finding a passing fling and they are sorry but the damage is done. Trust is broken and it's incredibly hard to get that back and forgive and forget. I see lots of people think that the goal is monogamy rather than the goal is a healty relationship. I don't think polyamory is for everyone--it takes a lot of work. But think about what you truly want--is dating where you should really be rather than focusing on one person. Dating is for trying on people, trying on relationships--so insisting that the person you're dating should be mongamous with you--that's called a relationship not dating.

Is staying in a relationship with one person until you find the next one healthy? That reminds me of high school relationships--don't break up with one until you've hooked the next one. As if being alone a milisecond isn't possibly the healthiest thing you could do for yourself and ultimately the next relationship.

Rope--

Yes butches are equated to men all the time. I don't see men or butches being held to higher standards. I see the exact opposite when it comes to men. Women are held to much higher standards and there is lots of violence against women when they have cheated or perceived to have cheated, something that can happen to men but doesn't nearly as often. Boys will be boys may be a stereotype but it is also a major way of excusing behavior.

As to butch femme communities, I think if a butch, FTM, person of masculine persuasion is cheated on they get the same sympathy and sense of outrage as when it happens to a femme. I do not see butches being held to higher standards when it comes to cheating, relationships, etc. There are of course instances of friends taking sides, etc which happens in any community.

As to celebrities, I don't much care. I didn't think you did either, but you keep bringing them up.

Oh and as to my little "tutorial" yeah most butches and femmes are women. When you keep talking about how bad men have it and keep ignoring what women have to say here and in other discussions it's pretty offensive to some of us.

Cheating is cheating no matter which gender does it.

I am very monogamous and definitely feel I am wired that way. I do think though there are probably some unrealistic expectations that go along with it for many people. However, I don't see how people who cheat or have a problem with honesty or communication would be successful at poly relationships either. You have to be honest and communicate well to have successful poly relationships as much or more than with a successful monogamous one because there are more individuals or potentially more individuals involved.

My reading was that you said there was a double standard for women. i also was talking about the U.S. -- now as well as the past.

What you said was offensive in the extreme. Women DIE in the U.S. every year after they have been accused of infidelity. It's not OK to just not include this fact in the conversation. Why is that so often the case -- that dead and beaten women go uncounted? Why is it not appalling when we do that? Or why, when we notice that we have done it, do we not take a long pause and think about it? It's not what i expect to encounter here. The fact is that misogyny in our community is a huge problem, and this illustrates it.

You KNOW the history of women, but you choose to dole out stereotypes of what people say about men vs what we say about women on an issue that has a bloody past and present for women? You KNOW, but you just don't want to mention that side of it? Please, spare me the stereotypes. i couldn't care less about your anecdotal observations about people's reactions to celebrities. i do take note that you can't be bothered to acknowledge the brutal facts of life as a woman in this culture.

Once again, Dylan, your misogyny is showing. Feel what you feel. But this isn't the place to bring it. It's hostile as hell to bring it here.

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

I didn't even do it when it WAS acceptable. I have to say that it really depends on how an individual is wired. Who are the acceptable police? I mean, who deems what is acceptable in a relationship between two people other than those two people? My vagina's business ends at the tip of everyone elses nose.

When women cheat (or even just date more than one person) they are deemed whore, slut, man eater, cheap, loose and so forth. Men normally get a wink and a pat on the back. Stud muffins. (Unless they are high profile and claiming family values, or just being two faced douche bags)

So your point of acceptability is moot, IMO. Cheating, lying, and hiding things from ones partner? Not nice. No matter who you are.

Insurance companies pay for Viagra and most pharmacies carry it.
The same cannot be said for birth control, the morning after pill, etc.
I've yet to hear of a flacid penis be a pre-existing condition, or beating ones wife be a pre-existing condition.
I HAVE heard of childbirth and being a victim of DV justified as reason to deny health coverage.

I guess my point is that double standards run rampant, but not usually in the favor of women.

Dylan using married queers who are divorcing is almost comical considering the incredibly small percentage of queers who are allowed to get married and how very new it is.

Internal dialogue....
 

Interesting posts. I'm new here so I think I will learn as I go, I think, haha

I swear, do y'all just read my posts, and then insert whatever wild thought comes to your head? Do you read my posts at all, or do you just see that I've posted, make up some ridiculousness, and then attribute it to me?

Please show me where I used queer marriages as an example of anything.

I'm beginning to think you misconstrue my words on purpose


Dylan

Oh, I don't know. Where on EARTH did I come up with that?
Because you just feed me the material Rev., I don't have to make a THING up.

p.s. Dylan you are right about sleeping with others while legally separated. Texas and six other states don't even ALLOW legal separation. Who knew? See, I learned something. It has to be whittled down to state law really on a *legal* basis. On a *moral* basis? That is between the couple I guess but technically it IS adultery. So thanks, because I had no idea.

Legal vs. moral, very different concepts. And I'm thinking about personal moral vs. public moral.... dictates, conditioning, power dynamics and money..... on and on.....

There is no way I can put every single person that is unfaithful into one specific category. Nor can I personally define what is morally right for anyone else but myself. Hummm.. actually, the term moral doesn't sit well with me anyway. And I prefer legal sanctions about marriage (straight or queer) to encoumpass no-fault divorce. I have yet to see a divorce in which fault cannot be found with both partners in some way. Sure, there are things like cheating (if partners have an agreement to be sexually mongamous) and/or abusive trump most fault variables, but I am happy that many states have moved beyond fault which has been really based upon moral issues for dissolution of marriage. There are many other variables such as children to deal with. Many of us do own property together and have set-up retirement plans together.

Along with the right to marry legally, comes all the responsibilities of marriage and divorce.

I am just not OK with someone being sexual with someone else and being with me. However, I am very clear about this at the start and want this honesty returned. Sometimes we just have things that are deal-breakers.

I'm just glad I have developed some clarity about what I can accept and not accept and an understanding that all of us are just different in these matters.

to clarify: i used moral as in we each have our own moral compass of what is right and what is wrong.:love1:

Yeppers, I got this!

:2butch:

one of my main credos is I dont accept the unacceptable. When people start to court me, I go through a series of questions that I ask them at different points along the way, and offer my own answers to them. Its a fun little game, but a serious one as well. I even tease (but am serious) about a contract before living together, compiled of things we have discussed and agreed upon. If someone absolutely has to have the sink cleaned out of dishes at all times...they need to let me know that because I am a stacker...I let the dishes stack up until there is enough of them to warrant standing there to do them. You would think this would not be a serious issue, but with two past partners, it was. So I have included this kind of "research" in my "questionarre"
so if I am going to ask about sinks and dirty dishes, you know I am going to ask about morals and values. Let someone say the "n" word and its a deal breaker. Seriously. Let someone tell me its ok to emotionally cheat on a partner,that they believe its not the same thing as physical cheating, they also lose.

I am CLEAR about my unacceptables, deal breakers. Life is way to short to think I can spend even a day with someone who does things that have the same affect on my soul as nails on chalkboards have on my spine....

It's not just disruptive to the sufferer, but everyone who knows them. It pervades every pore of the relationship until it kills it eventually. Maybe not in every case, but in my case, yeah. Some people suffer from the whole triple threat you mentioned, it's sad to feel so un-cared for by the other, that they would not want to get help. But they have to want it for themselves, another person will never be important enough. Like with my own addictions, I had to want to be clean and sober for myself, not for someone else. But I've also learned, for ME, sex addiction is a huge consideration in partnering -- learned like everything else, the hard way. I want no drugs, no alcohol, no smoking, and no sex addictions in my life. I want my partner to be able to be as fully in the present as possible. I offer that, and I want it in return. No more compromising my values. There are enough challenges in life without having to face daily addictions as part of the burden. Progress, not perfection -- and for me, progress starts with being free from active addictions, and my partner also. This is a separate issue (but related) from that of honesty and communication which are integral; for me it is impossible to achieve that with addictions in the way.

AMEN. I wonder if these few celebrity cases are doing a disservice to those who really do suffer as sex addicts. IMO it has made the public at large make a big joke about it. Which is sad.

Progress, not perfection baby!

In a way they do shine a light on a pervasive problem. On the down side, it tends to cause people to make light of a serious situation. Not everyone who suffers can get an all-expenses-paid trip to "Promises" or whatever the hell celeb rehab is popular these days. Maybe instead of highlighting those on pedestals, they could offer real solutions for the average person who may need it. It's a very complicated issue that can't be treated with a golf club.

Many sex addicts are not in relationships. With a real person that is.

and, many sex addicts don't feel *themselves* as 'real' people...the whole thing, imo, is that it's all sad, sad, sad and brings that same upon everyone involved...

maudlin this evening, I guess...