As for the red, holy crap! Nobody has a right to tell anyone what is or is not the right way to do anything. That's just plain crazy to me.


Not everybody fits into that vision Martina. I'm not trying to be a role model and I sure am not trying to sell my version of yummy to anyone else. I don't even think I really buy into what works for me as being a "50's" way of being.

But for us, it does work that I stay at home (head injury and all) and Brute works. I cook, he takes out the trash....when he's home dammit!!! He deals with certain "male" things and I deal with certain "female" things. But's that's not how we live or define ourselfs. It's just works out that what he does best is what society has labeled the "man" thing and what I do best, society has labeled the "woman" thing.

And I think that's the root of this issue. Because society sees certain traits and behaviors as gendered, the fact that what seems to work for me to be me, is labeled as societies idea of man or woman. I can't help that. Just because society decides that such and such is such and such, and I don't like societies version of such and such, that doesn't mean I still don't fell more comfortable with MY version of such and such. I'm sure that made absolutly no sense to anyone but me. LOL!


About manners....I don't place any sort of....I don't know what to call it...judgement maybe? on where my ideas of polite and mannerly come from. All I know is that people act rude in public and that's fucked up. The only thing I can relate it to is the law. Your rights end where my nose begins. So if your child is running around the store throwing things on the floor, they are walking on my nose.

This is so hard to articulate. I wish I had better words.


j

Ok.


must have 10 characters dammit

I think you are being too nice is choosing the word "original" LOL!!! I have some other that might apply.

What I'm attracted to first is the energy of the person and if they happen to be FT M so be it. What I think is supremely sexy is the abundance of male energy with an underlying dichotomy of sorts.(f)


Duchess

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?

LOL!! I think you're on the same track I'm on, not sure it's the "right track"


I don't think that I would say Brute and i *enjoy* cause that's kinda like a preference. I would say that the core of who we are, UNFORTUNATLY, fit into societies version of stereotypical binary gender roles. (phew. mouth full that was)


And I think that's where this issue starts to go sideways. First people are lazy in language and thought. Second, there really is no correct language to use in this instance because it all revolves back to societal ideas. I just have to call bullshit on that.

All of us, especially me, need to be more careful when talking about what makes us tick as an individual. Words matter and sometimes if we would take two more seconds to think, we might pick a word that doesn't push other peoples buttons.

But on the flip side, if what works for me is something that society labels one thing, please don't dismiss that what works for me, may work for me outside of societies ideas or sterotypes. Just because what works for me is something that screams out OPPRESION, does not mean that it's not me. Or that I am glamorizing or wishisg for that oppresion. And when people say that being a certain way is wrong or does not acknowlege the hardships of the past, that is just as off base as someone glamourizing the 50's or pick an era.


There has got to be a way to not have this same argument over and over.


I'm not trying to be right or prove a point or any such nonsense. I'm trying to figure out how to talk about my relationship, without offending others. Cause whatever I may say, could and usually does illicet this type of response. It's hurtful and sad. It would be nice to feel free to just speak about my truth without being so worried I'm gonna say the wrong thing because of societies limitations.



j

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. :tea: language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.


j

When you begin to truly live as who you were always meant to be, that confidence and awareness of yourself really truly comes out & so does your confidence :)

Wish you lived closer...<smile>....[/QUOTE]

I know I never seem to live close to anyone :p

More thoughts.
 

PS.- also there will be Guys/FTMs/Masculine folk who are attracted to transfolk. Sorry the PS is above the OP but I'm on the road and realized like a dork I left out those in other various forms of relationships:)


Agreed, and though this is the Trans Zone there are guys here on BFP who attract Femmes/Women/Females who don't fall into binary roles.

I have a hard on for queer folk who are like this.

I have to say....
 

I didn't say anything about the 50's being "better" than now...for any reason..I said, people seemed to have more manners then...hell..let's say in the 60's 70's & 80's too......point is...people are MUCH more rude & self-absorbed in today's society in general.....but of course...not on this website...<grin>.....

What attracts you to FtMs???
 

Bumping back to the question of what attracts you to FtMs???

If I think about the FtMs I've been /am attracted to, the commonality between them is the way they are comfortable being exactly who they are, their masculinity, and their swagger. Additionally, I've always appreciated their experience of being aware of gender and gender identity. Most heterosexual males I know do not think about this concept ever, or if they have it's from a very juvenile place. Note: I am stating these things from MY experiences with people *I* have known. This doesn't apply to all, just as I'm not attracted to all FtMs, nor do I believe all FtMs are any of the things I said above, not all heterosexual males ignore gender and gender identity. (I think I've covered all the bases...)

WHAT???? You didn't pick one of my posts??? I'm crushed!!!! lol

I brought that descriptor into the convo because some folks see it as that. Some folks see it as a fetish (see below). Some folks just 'see' it. No adjectives or descriptors needed.

Wow. Just wow.

I haven't said any of this (as opposed to those it is referencing) and I'm offended. Communication is a two way street. The weight of the message does not rest solely on the speaker. Not only must the speaker find a way to get their message across clearly but the listener must make the effort to make sure the message received is the message intended.

I feel that that is not happening.

I like how you feel such a connection with history and the impact our predecessors made towards giving us rights and the ability to choose what style we want and/or need to live our lives in. And I think that it's important to be reminded of that, but I do not feel that that should go hand in hand with what is being discussed.

I guarantee when I am engaging with my partner...whether sex specific or not...I do not think of every person who has come before me and their struggles in this world. Perhaps I am narrowminded or selfish or just not observant outside my own sphere but when I am with someone and I am doing something with that person that says "THIS is US", I'm thinking...strangely enough...of US.

Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

Why? Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them and force a history lesson they may or may not know already down their throat?

Just to be clear, I would love to be able to stay at home. Kids or no kids. Whatever. But the reality is that I have to work, whether I'm in a relationship or not. I don't consider that a "June Cleaver" (Can we please call it something else because I think that name is inflammatory enough on its own?) lifestyle because most of my partners have cooked better than I do and I'm not doing the serving you in heels thing unless it's my choice and then it's going to be ON later that night. So, I take things from this 'pattern' shall I call it and use it as I see fit in my relationships but it does not define me and does not call for a morality lesson every time I engage in it.

I really think I've missed something here. I think it was Snowy that mentioned the Nostalgia thread and I think that a lot of hurt and frustration from when this was brought up in that thread didn't get ironed out. I missed out on what transpired there and maybe that's where some of the 'the 50's were the best damn time in the world' stuff came up. I actually didn't see any of that in here. Again, I've obviously missed something because a group said they did see it in here. Or maybe someone said something that was CLOSE to what was said before and everyone got riled up again, expecting the same thing from last time to happen. Guessing here as I wasn't there.

I really, really tried to let this go (obviously not enough as I am still typing), but it just feels too damn icky to me to do so. I'll be happy to discuss it further with anyone that would like to pm me though, as I do see that some folks are working hard to get the thread back on track.

/derail

I'm in the 'energy' group. I like a lot of masculinity, in whatever form it may present itself, to balance out my femininity. It's like salt on my watermelon, really.

Dang my brother it is a toss up between the food looks better in the 50's
And gemmes post
Food , hmmmm
Ok I'm torn
;)
ROFL
You made me laugh
My wife is a donna reed but something else other locations
I dig it

That's giving people a lot of power. How could someone here take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them?

And if you don't claim to be living the 50's household life, then my comments aren't relevant to you.

Oh and re saying something is wrong vs saying it isn't for me. I don't think this living arrangement is wrong. But holding up as exemplary an arrangement in which the male id'd person has power and privilege by virtue of his gender -- yeah that's wrong. Was wrong, is wrong, will always be wrong.

Gemme, no one has told you how to have a relationship.

No one.

It is very dangerous to white wash history. We are about to have a Presidential election where our rights could take us back to the 1950s and earlier. I am never going to ignore any of that. I didn't take issue with anyone's relationship. What I have issue with is white washing history.

And if people want to make male the superior in their relationship they can, but if people are going to tie that to some wonderful mystical past when things were so much better I will challenge that. And I will continue to challenge male being superior as the default in society.

Gemme you can PM me anytime but you can't just come in here and say a bunch of stuff and then tell us to take it to private.

Moderating
 

Here's what needs to happen, folks:

1. This thread appears to have meandered into a completely different area than "What attracts you to FtMs...". While threads will do that, I think that the discussion being had here is valuable enough to warrant it's own thread so that folks can continue teasing this apart without derailing the folks who would like to engage in more light-hearted banter.

2. This discussion feels very similar to me as the one did when the whole "Gor-Daddy" thing came up. Much like that conversation, I want to remind folks that you do not get to police other people's kink. You don't get to label what someone else finds sexy as "wrong". It may indeed *be* wrong but this is where we have to accept that desire is a really convoluted thing and that its intersections are often going to bump up against things that are made of -isms.

3. I think it is super valuable to dismantle desire for ourselves. If you want to tease apart why something doesn't work for you, then do that with language that is thoughtful and sincere. Refrain from jabs that make you look like an asshole because the conversation cannot happen if people keep trying to "win" rather than listen.

4. The very nature of the Butch/Femme dynamic is seen as sexist, racist, and homophobic by many folks. Think back to discussions in your Feminism circles where you may have heard those shitty diatribes about how Butches "just want to be men" or how Femmes "are really straight women looking to get their pussy licked". Does it feel at all familiar to folks that we are now turning inward on other dynamics that feel "wrong" to us but that other people have found shelter in?
I'm not saying that there aren't dynamics out there that are really fucked up. There are. There are dynamics out there that deserve a ton of discussion. My point is that I would like to see that discussion happen thoughtfully without all the other bullshit. (you know, that bullshit where we waggle our fingers at someone else's way of doing their desire).

5. As far as individual desire goes, I'm a huge fan of the motto "If you aren't fucking me, paying my bills, or living in my house, you don't get to have an opinion on what I do."

6. With the above being said, if you are up on a Feminist website spouting some bullshit about Gor-Daddies and how awesome it is when Femmes turn into Stepford Pussies or Butches are only Butch when they are climbing the "Machismo Dick Tower", expect to have that shit dragged out into the daylight and picked at.

The point of all this is y'all need to treat each other better.
Make your point as if the person you are talking to is across the table from you at the Reunion.

And in the immortal words of Ozzy, "I love you all but you're all fucking mad."

Thanks,
Angie

I just love these two. I hope that the honeymooners are not considered x-rated or something.. Also, people can choose whether or not they wanna watch the show. Just a link. Heck Alice is awesome. Crazy Ralph says..."Baby, you're the greatest" and also, to the moon Alice...when he doesn't understand her.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frbp2O6I2go"]The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 1/3 - YouTube[/nomedia]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI8Elpu18uU"]The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 2/3 - YouTube[/nomedia]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRG62QFGcKM"]The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 3/3 - YouTube[/nomedia]

This is when Alice goes and gets a job and Ralph can't deal with her not at home. He has no idea how much work it is for her to do all that she does.
It is great. I think the women that have known me...eh...would probably say...i can be a little too much like Ralph sometimes.
Probably sometimes too much. Hell, maybe i am giving myself too much credit. Would have to ask the women that have lived with me really to get a real idea. Would be nice to hear them critique this post ....from a distance...and in bits.
Damn he is like a child...i don't think i was that bad????

thank you.

my politics and my personal life preferences/kinks do not necessarily reflect one another. i'm what happens when you mix the DNA of an intellectual, a housewife and a porn star to create a whole new person. anyone who doesn't like my love of submission and sexual engagement via housework, cooking, baking, grocery shopping, budgeting, errand running, managing a home and spreading my legs for my One Person can suck my dick. (she said in a very genteel fashion)

**EDIT**

my apologies for not reading the moderation that Medusa posted or recognizing that i was further derailing the thread. that said, my post stands undeleted because i'm selfish that way.

Times have changed. Just my opinion ....I actually think that life now demands an awful lot(i think more demand than that of the past) from women...especially mothers with jobs and a home to take care of. (Maybe i feel this way because i have not experienced any other time or way of life.) I believe that there should be a balance of work within a home from a family.
Never ok to hit a woman in my opinion. I didn't realize that it was ever ok or perfectly acceptable to hit a woman back then. I don't think i ever will realize that. I disagree with it so much that it would not matter what context or time period.

And as far as the Honeymooners goes...if it has to be deleted or taken out from this forum..if the show offends anyone...then i would understand. I wouldn't take it personally. I just like the show.

back on track
 

i'm attracted to FtMs in part because i love people who live from a place of extreme authenticity. as a cis-gendered person i've not ever had to demand space for myself. i can only imagine (and i expect i aprobably couldnt come close to imagining even half) what it might be take to demand that kind of room in the world or what it would feel like to have the stones to do it. that kind of honesty bunches my knickers.

i feel the compelled to write the following disclaimer so i dont get bent over for not acknowledging that non-transgendered folks also do exactly what i've just described. please accept this paragraph as my acknowledgement of that fact now. lots of people do that who are not transgendered have to create space for themselves in this narrow world. many (if not most) of the people on this website do that very thing every day. in my post i am merely responding to the topic (what attracts you to FtMs) in a personal and honest way. in addition, this is only PART of what attracts me to FtMs. the rest of what attracts me to them (or to anyone, for that matter) is often a mystery to me. it just is what it is. [/I]

What attracts you to FtMs???
 

Bumping to get us back on this trail..

I love you for this....thank you !
 

Thank you !

Clearing my throat....
 

I'd like to hear again.....why is it you femmes love/ are attracted to us ?????.......

<smile>....

Jonathan

quoting cause I'm lazy like that...
 

disclaimer...please note I am posting in a thread about FTM's in the Trans Zone. I do realize that the above could apply to pretty much.....everybody.