I guess I don't care if I'm invisible as a femme. I don't care what people I don't know, don't know about me.

And if people make assumptions about who I want to sleep with, I don't care about that, either. If they matter to me, I'll give them more information so they know me better. If they don't matter to me, I don't care if their assessment of me is inaccurate.

I can't relate to the pain of invisible femme-ness. And the way I feel about this, doesn't make me less of a femme, or a lesser femme. I'm just a femme who doesn't care if I'm the only one who knows it.

I could give 2 hoots if I am invisible in the straight world...though the reactions are interesting. It's in the gay world, I feel hurt. Our own community stereotypes us and can't recognize us. I hate being the "straight girl" with a butch partner, or an outsider of the community because "I'm not really gay". Bah!

But, when you do get recognized... It makes it so worth it! :)

I really want to echo this. I felt it most when I was coming out and was trying to find my place in the community. I never felt like I belonged and I felt like I stuck out. Gay boys thought I was just an unsure hag. Lesbians didn't welcome me because they thought I was either a straight girl, bi or experimenting

The "you're not really gay" used to hurt the most.

Now I just respond with "No, I'm just queer and fabulous." and flash a smile.

I own my femme. Visible or invisible :)

Some interesting thoughts on this whole "femme invisibility" topic.
I'll speak from my own individual place, as a femme, and also, as I relate to this subject as a feminist.

So first of all, I'm about as invisible as a full blown super nova. I take up space. I have opinions, presence, and don't move through any space, queer or not, like some invisible wraith in a push up bra and a pair of heels.

It sits somewhere unpleasantly on the shelf next to 'reverse racism' for me. Issues of passing locate themselves importantly in the axis of power and privilege, of oppression and violence. Just like there is no such thing as 'reverse racism' against a dominant white body, the idea of a 'passing' as straight through the world is privilege, that is being spun now as the 'oppression' of not being seen. It's not an accusation to be read as 'straight' by a heteronormative world. It's simply an anatomical fiat: I have a gender, that gender is femme. I express that gender in ways that FIT me. Those expressions give me an undeserved, unwarranted privilege in passing.


Femme Invisibility: not so much.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma...myu0o1_500.jpg


I prefer this:


http://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com...0a0a0cc8fe.jpg

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

http://media-cache-ec7.pinterest.com...32492276bc.jpg

Didn't Know...
 

...which thread to share this on, but this is AWESOME!

Femmes, Pulling the Pieces Together: A Keynote Address by Pratibha Parmar


http://thefeministwire.com/2013/02/f...zm-l9Y.twitter

So I feel conflicted as a QWF that's being called out here.

I don't say "femme invisibility" in these threads to claim being wronged by society as a whole. It's a loss of community I have felt. It's a feeling and experience that is solely mine, that makes me feel less isolated when it's echoed back from a femme sister. It's an experience that not everyone shares for sure.

And as a QWF, I would never try to own someone else's experience as a person of color, a transgendered person, or anything else that isn't my experience to own.

I know that I have privilege and safety, there is an alternate thread in the Femme Zone called unpacking the purse--discussing femme privilege. I guess as this a venue for me to connect with my femme sisters in way that I normally don't get to do regularly. I think we should all have the chance to speak in our voices.

But sometimes I feel like when we don't share experiences with each other for the sake of saying "x, y or z has it so much worse" it shuts down a venue for people to discuss. I want everyone to share whatever experiences they've had in their lives. Because the only person that can speak your story is you.

This isn't meant as a retort, so much as its a desire to open up discussion.

I love that we have this venue/space to connect. You are so right in that many of us don't get to do so regularly.

As a QWF myself, that image, and the words spoke to me. I received them as an ally to my femme sisters who are WOC. I acknowledge the reality of how their experience(s) differ from my own.

I don't feel personally, that femme invisibility, is an issue for me OUTSIDE of our own communities. I also truly believe that there is no hierarchy of oppression, and that all of our experiences are real, valid and worthy of sharing. :)

I'm going to use this photo as a jumping off point, and my (possible) rant is NOT aimed at you, femmeInterrupted. Just to make that clear. Some of my ideas are probably going to be admittedly reactionary.

I've been out of the loop in the Butch/Femme online community for a long time now. I dropped out of the scene after some big online drama on some big other web site. I'm sure a lot of you know what I am talking about. In the spirit of full disclosure, I used to go by the name of musicfemme in old online circles. The name just doesn't fit me as well anymore, so here I am.

I have been desperately wanting to get back into the online community for a while now but haven't known how. I've been wanting to post something on this site about being Femme and what I've been going through in the past few years of my life. The very REAL, and genuine pain I feel around issues of Femme invisibility. I haven't known where to post, or how to do it, and I know most of this conversation took place years ago, but that photo really stuck in my craw and motivated me to finally speak.

When I say I have DESPERATELY been wanting to get back into the B/F online community, I am not overstating my point. I feel literally desperate for Femmes and Butches. I feel desperate and lonely and alone and ripped apart and fucking INVISIBLE. I have been searching for the right thread to reach out because I feel fucking INVISIBLE in my life. That INVISIBILITY is so real and so painful to me, that I read this entire thread fucking crying. That when I tried getting on this web site again, after six months of when I signed up--I cried. It's very emotional for me. You know what? I think it's great that some Femmes don't feel an issue with invisibility--but I do. And it's not because I'm stupid or care too much what other people think--it's because community is genuinely important, and when you literally have none, well talk to me then about what it's like to try and move through the world interacting with hardly anyone who can wrap their mind around who you fucking are.

You want to know why that picture pisses me off? Well, it's because it smacks of blowing off femininity and rendering the feelings of feminine folks, FEMMES, as lesser and less important than other issues. Look, I fully understand that because I am white and feminine and seemingly straight that I get to move in the world in ways that are easier because of those things. HOWEVER, it does not change the reality and validity of anything I feel as a Femme in regards to my femininity and the pain of invisibility. BOTH can exist at the same time. The matrix of power and privilege and opression are complicated things.

Anyway. Yeah, so invisibility can fucking suck. I got to a point in my life where finding real time kinky community was more important to me than anything else. And while, I learned a LOT, and experienced a lot, it really did divorce me from any sort of B/F community. I made the decision to take some time off from being online and really got immersed in BDSM. In a mostly straight community. In a community that wouldn't understand Femme if it bit them in the ass. In a community where "FemDom" is shorthand for "Female Dominant". I'm like, no I am a F-E-M-M-EEEEE, totally different thing. Have you ever tried explaining Femme to completely ignorant folks WITHOUT referencing Butch, Lesbian, Trans, your girlfriend at home, etc.? It's actually very difficult.

Then, THEN, I committed the Femme Cardinal Sin of All Femme Sins. I fell in love with a cis man. Yes, you heard that correctly. And while I love him very much--it has complicated my life and fucked with my head and really served to divorce me from the Femme/Butch community further. I have never felt more invisible in my entire life than I have since I've been with him. It shoves me back in the closet fucking constantly. And as much as he tries to understand Femme, it is NOT the same as the intrinsic understanding that comes from other Femmes, Femme-loving Butches, and Femme-loving Transmen.

Most of the folks in my local kinky community think I am straight and I have given up trying to explain. I feel unwelcome at Queer events because of who my partner is, and it is heartbreaking because HE DOES NOT DEFINE WHO I AM. Because, you see, I am still a Butch and Transman loving Femme. My identity has not changed because I happened to fall in love with a cis man. I am NOT straight, as some folks like to tell me. I am NOT bisexual (though there is nothing wrong with that), and I am NOT pansexual. Everyone seems to like to tell me what the fuck I am now. I have even more strongly realized that my identity is not dependant on anyone else, and that my sexual orientation towards Transmen (mainly) and also Butches HAS NOT CHANGED. I would most likely never seek out a relationship with a cis man ever again. Which is also not to say I don't fucking love my partner.

But my level of visibility? That has absolutely changed. I am seen as suspect. I am traitor. My feminity less valid, much more easily dismissed. The ironic thing being I am VERY political, out, proud, radical in my femininity and brand of Femme. Yes, I do those things that others have mentioned are not always deemed "acceptable" for Femmes--swearing, kink, fucking, Topping, strapping, and many others. So, I feel fucked six ways to Sunday and not in a good way.

Even though I know exactly who I am, it does get pretty lonely without anyone who can really SEE me. Without community. It's kind of like the tree falling in the forrest thing. I do care to have people in my life who can truly SEE me. Who "get" my gender and my performance and that I don't have to constantly explain myself to. I am desperately lonely and feel torn in two directions and it fucking sucks. My pain in this invisibility I am experiencing is REAL and does not go away just because I am white and I can "pass," whatever that really means. I ABHOR being told I shouldn't be vocal about Femme invisibility because of passing. It hurts. Plain and simple.

Ok, I feel like this post is getting way too long and rambling. I just really feel the need to speak and put my story out there, maybe have some people read it and get some support.

The thing that came to mind, for me, back when I saw this post in February, was the semiotic value of using the mascara wand; and then, as if by provenance, I came across a quote last night, posted by 'Soon' (I loved seeing that quote, Soon):

“Sometimes I think the difference between what we want and what we're afraid of is about the width of an eyelash.” ― Jay McInerney

candy_coated_bitch's post last night struck to the heart of the complication of matters - most of which I feel deal with the struggle many of, if not most all: The idea proposed by candy_coated_bitch that "the matrix of power and privilege and oppression are complicated things" (See, paragraph 5, of ccb's 11 stanza post above).

Back to expressing my own, although brief, complicated arrangement of thoughts: I liked the mascara wand in that often times, no matter how expensive the brand of mascara I buy, I often deal with clumping issues. And, the irony of the statement contained within the photo found on Pinterest, and contained within the quote as well, was the idea that if we took gender, sexual orientation and proclivities, race (I use this particular term loosely to include all forms of racial identification and ethnicity, not just one) and all other biological and social markers out of the equation and all we had left was an 'eye-lash' of distinction, how is it that we still face 'clumping issues' ??? (a rhetorical implication)

In my own opinion, I face 'clumping issues' every single day in life and it's not only within this particular community, but in everyday life at work or even in ongoing relationships with people (in general). It pisses me off. It taxes every single last nerve I have, even in the subterranean existence I feel I often lead on a daily basis. And, simultaneously, I also find that, for me, I find myself appalled that I would relish being invisible because when I come to the point where I equally (for lack of a better way to explain it) experience invisibility here in this particular community or in any community abroad, I loathe how even now in life I have less than a better way to reveal who I am. And I say that because in my own life experience, even when I am quite vocal about who I am, I get tired of perceptual foci of others who would say or think that I am, in their words, a "Femme Dom" or "Bisexual" or any other sexual orientation or gender other than what I am. And what I am is simply this: I am Femme (full stop). And, even with having taken the time to explain who I am in a single post, two years ago, in Betenoir's forum thread of who I am as a Femme, I still face the unintended (or intended) consequence of perception held by others of who they think I am, when clearly their perception of who I am is not who I am.

I want to say thank you, wholeheartedly, to candy_coated_bitch for your timely post and the eloquence with which you express your views. I'm glad you are here once again in our online community. :rrose:

Most people assume that I am straight because of what I look like but I don't really care what anyone else thinks. I only care what the person (butch or ftm) I am with thinks. That is of course when I am in a relationship.

ok...so I know this is an older post, and we're all commenting on it now and talking about it, which is really super awesome.

I, however, have LOTS OF FEELINGS about it.

First: confusion. I do not understand why an afro-latina femme dyke is freaking out about privilege for queer white femmes in relation to invisibility. Is there not privilege in passing for a straight afro-latina woman also? I understand race politics are messy and I am loathe to open that can of worms here, it just looks like the person who made the photo was trying to make a comment about those racial politics but missed her mark. Is she implying that femmes of color are recognizable as dykes?

Second: Calling people out on privilege. This is something that has becoming REALLY popular lately. Instead of having teachable moments where we can learn and be educated and educate others, we have somehow gotten to this place where everything is instantly viewed as a personal insult, and every vestige of privilege needs to be called out, scorned, and turned into a competition of "I have less privilege than you". I can't stand it. I had a friend who would spend all of their time berating people for what they believed was privilege and cultural appropriation. Most of the time, they were just searching for reasons to blame everyone else for things that were beyond their control. They are no longer my friend because they cannot tell the difference between malicious insult and being uninformed.

Third: I believe invisibility is a problem for folks looking to find people to date. How can a person find a partner if they don't know who to look for/consider as a possible match? I would love to go out on dates, but the only people who approach me are cis-gendered men. I indicate interest to masculine-presenting folks, but that is often considered "too forward". For me, there is no appearance-based characteristic to indicate my sexual/relationship preferences and that causes a problem because it immediately discounts the prospect of being seen as a member of the community at first glance. For me, I will have to invest the time to talk to someone and choose to disclose the information that I am queer to make my identity known. I will have to trust that people interested in potentially making a match with me for whatever reason will be able to put in the time to find out that information. Sometimes people just want to be able to look and know.


Sorry for the novel. Thank you for letting me speak my mind. I hope some of you lovely folks might be able to help me understand what's going on with that photo and the subsequent discussion. I promise I am not trying to be insulting, just curious (and slightly ranty about invisibility).

I'm so glad that folks are posting in this thread again. I want to write, and hate doing the whole multi-quote thing but will try and make it clear when I am responing to someone else.

One of the best things I've ever read on the myth of "Femme Privilege"

I swear I could kiss that woman on the mouth for that if I ever meet her. It touches more eloquently on some of the things I was trying to say in my post than I could. Food for thought.

Katzchen (if I knew how to make the little two dots above the "a" I would LOL)--Oh yes, I really like your analogy with the mascara wand and issues of "clumping". All of this stuff tends to bump up against each other in often messy, not so pretty ways. Including invisibility!

Yes, why would anyone RELISH being invisible? Gee, that's so enjoyable, right? But it goes beyond that. I loved what the author of the blog pointed out about the reconstruction of the closet as oppressive. Fucking AMEN. The notion of straight unil proven otherwise I think is oppressive for ANYONE queer, and that the burden of having to constantly come out and explain ourselves as Femmes is absolutely a type of erasure, silencing, and yes, oppression. Also, even in our own communities--Femmes are often viewed as suspect. An almost "guilty until proven innocent" kind of thing when it comes to femininity.

And once proven legitimate--how is that legitimacy so quickly removed? So often based on whom we choose to partner with? It's ludicrous! I really wish there were better ways of explaining and understanding Femme beyond "Oh I like Butches". That's all well and good and often a part of Femme sexuality--but it is NOT what Femme is about. I feel like we (general we) are able to recognize that Femme is a gender but not really able to explain it. The easiest way for me to come out has always been an explanation regarding who my partner/potential partners are. Which is fucked! And now that the option of doing that, for me, is removed, or more complicated, or whatever--I dearly wish I had better words to explain "Femme" other than something vis avis who I am fucking.

ScandalAndy: I really liked your post and had actually been thinking about coming back and writing something here raising some of the questions you did. Like I said earlier--I think issues of power and privilege are complicated, but yeah WTF with the Oppression Olympics. I would ABSOLUTELY think an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke (or other Femme of color) would experience issues of invisibility in similar ways. I'm not really sure what she was getting at either, except an odd way of saying she thinks racism is a more important issue for her? Which it may very well be for many Femmes of color, I couldn't speak on that. My feelings on my own experience are not somehow invalid because I am white. It doesn't make issues of Femme (in)visibility less real. A Femme of color may have other issues going on that make things more complicated, that may make issues of (in)visibility more or less salient. Sure, I get that. And I'm pretty sure a lot of white Femmes wanting to talk about this stuff get it. I'm not going to fucking shut up just because racism exists. I want to try my best as a white person to be an ally (I may not always be successful) and listen to important conversation when I have the opportunity. But I will NOT stop having feelings because I am white, or stop speaking about the ways I experience other forms of oppression just because I am white.

That picture SO left a bad tatse in mouth partially because I felt it insinuated that white Femmes couldn't be aware of their own invisibility AND acknowledge issues around racism at the same time. But, I am perfectly able to acknowledge both, thank you. I am not an air head and my mind can handle it without exploding.

I think it WOULD be inappropriate to continually bring up issues of invisibility during a conversation Femmes of color were trying to have about race. Like, saying "oh yeah but I'm so invisible" and hijacking the conversation. THAT is Oppression Olympics and inappropriate. I would never do that. That space for discussions about racism needs to exist and I respect that. I even wanna learn from that. HOWEVER, a Queer White Femme making comments and speaking on her own outside of that--um, no. Just don't even dismiss that shit just because I am white. That in and of itself feels like an other type of silencing that just does not sit well with me.

I fully believe this issue of (in)visibility goes well and beyond some "hurt feelings". I think the blog entry, again, touches on some of that stuff really wonderfully. The question about how much privilege a feminine woman really accesses is an important one, I think. Enough with the red herrings already.

And finally--Chancie. I liked your post. I also agree that I find descriptors such as: "high," "true," "pure," etc. disconcerting. I suspect that their usage in and of itself is a result of feelings around Femme (in)visibility, even unconsciously. I mean--what is a "pure" Femme? What qualities or traits or behaviors can make a Femme IMpure (i.e. less Femme)? How does that even make sense, really? But I think we feel those things! I think those pressures and stereotypes exist. I think using such adjectives show a real need for a Femme to assert her Femmeness and femininity, to stand out, to legitimize herself. When really, ANY embodiment of Femme is true, pure, natural, uber, and the highest form of Femme possible.

I guess I am not understanding what is so bad about what the femme wrote. She acknowledges that femme invisibility sucks and feels bad and should be something to discuss but that the "passing" of a white femme is a very different experience than of a femme of color. I am not saying this be the good white person. I guess it reminds of the arguments people get into with transmen versus butches. Everyone has valid concerns and issues but no one ever hears anything because they are so busy being offended, othered and dismissed. Why can't people have their feelings that don't always acknowledge or make room for other's feelings?

This femme is entitled to her feelings and lived experience. Her experience does not negate or invalidate mine. I hope this makes sense. I am not trying to disagree with any of the posts here and I actually really appreciate all of the opinions.

That image above - that really gets under my skin. hmm.

You know, I really don't go around complaining about the invisibility and frankly if anybody paid attention I think my gayness is a bit visible except to the clueless.

However, I'm wondering if the word "invisibility" trivializes the lived experience. Other words I have found apply: on the outskirts, trivialized, not believed, invalidated, not a "real" lesbian, suspect.

Growing up, I knew some lesbians. In fact, my next-door neighbors were a lesbian couple. They weren't butch-femme. If anything, they were more butch-butch looking to my 10 year-old eyes. They used to have other lesbians over and drink beer and talk on their back driveway, the sound of their laughter and comradery were sounds that carried me to the window in the Texas dusk. The seemed to have what it seemed like so many men had - a sort of comradery that I didn't see among straight women. My mom is one of four sisters and they love each other and are very kind to each other. But the way these women related to each other - it was something I wanted very badly with other women and that I didn't see other women having. But that laughter, that kinship always seemed to be in some farther room - inaccessible. At first because I was in the closet, and later because I still wasn't that - type of lesbian who could have that sort of interaction with other lesbians. Sometimes I really wonder what it would be like to just be a butch among butches. It looks like heaven from the outside. But, I have found something - if not the same type of comradery as my neighbors' 80s get-togethers - amongst other femmes - and even in company of butches and femmes together. I guess what I'm saying is that it's nice to be in the company of people who know what the heck a femme is in the first place. There are few really who do know what a femme is - even in the queer world and even if the word "femme" is in the vocabulary.

Hmmm
 

The descriptors you used in the post to *me* are assigned markers of hierarchy... Femme has no High ----- Low, we- just are. For me it's my gender so..... I can't and won't fall into the trap of assigning "value" to Femme. I'd like to address the stuff about Femmes of Color and our experiences but I'll take the chance and be transparent and say I'm not comfortable cause there was some hostility in the posts regarding a WOC's perception about race/identify/gender/Femme...


Candy, I'm going to come back after work and share my experience as a Femme who chose to live with a cis gender man and the trials of holding on to Femme:)

Hang in there sister!

I really hear you on the employment issues, Dee. I never judge people who are not out at work. We all pretend at our jobs in one way or another, or most do anyway.

I'm out at work, but I wasn't for the first few months.

Being out at work usually doesn't have an impact on how it feels to be there but this past week I had a meeting with the chair of a department at my college, and it came up.

He was commenting about a guy in my department who is regarded as a kind of "womanizer." I said I "don't get" the appeal of the guy, but I'm gay, and since the only way he relates to women is by flirting, I don't even notice he's there most of the time.

The department chair looked kind of startled. Then he told me his daughter is gay and she's about to marry her partner of ten years. He said it was hard for him at first; he kept asking her, "Are you sure?" but now, he's happy for her. He looked at me differently when I left. He walked me all the way to the exit, past all the other offices.

I don't think I'm out at work to change the world. I just don't have the energy to constantly reinvent myself to make others comfortable.

It's also personal for me and not about being gay. I recently left my partner and felt invisible in her house for a lot of reasons that were amplified once I withdrew from the twice-weekly family dinners where her mother glared hatefully at me and jumped in to invalidate everything I said. I went everywhere by myself and never felt so alone in my own home and life when I was in that relationship. That kind of invisibility damaged me in ways that are going to take a while to heal.

Maybe that's why I also, lately, stepped out as a gay person at work (I'm already out at work and it doesn't usually come up but there is a certain subtext in place when I make a comment about gay stuff as opposed to a straight person making it), and laughed at my boss when he said he didn't want to write an article about a queer lit professor because "it's not his thing." He seemed really uncomfortable that we even have a queer lit class at the college.

And I laughed out loud at him, which he didn't like. I said, "I've just never heard a manager be so open with his homophobia." Then I said, "Just don't make comments like that at Cabinet!" and laughed more.

The guy was embarrassed and back-pedaled strenuously to justify his comments. I said look, what if I say I don't want to cover a Jewish history class because "it's not my thing." (I'm not Jewish, but my boss is, and anti-Semitism is the only "ism" that gets to him, IMO.) I was playing devil's advocate, of course. To his credit he didn't play the "boss" card, and we just moved on.

I work in a very politically correct environment with a lot of institutional protections in place for gays and people of color but it doesn't sound like you do. I can say those things because I have protections in place.

But did I "change the world" as you describe that act of being out in the world?

I don't know. I enjoyed the exchange. And guess what, he has changed. He's much cooler now about this gay guy that works in another department that he used to make unkind remarks about, for one thing. I wonder if it's related.

When I was in college, a local elder of the river community came to talk to us about the anthropology field study we had just completed. He talked to us about privilege. He said that we were privileged to have had that education and experience. That we had the time and means (student loan) to do so and many of us have the privilege of being white or being a respected member or a group who can speak with authority. Or both. Use that privilege to influence change for balance, so others can have that privilege.

One thing I have really learned from living in many different places in this world is that the privileges I have in Vancouver are not the same when I live somewhere else. I lose some and gain others when I move.
In some places I just lose some.
People forget that there is a giant subtext to talking about privilege and hierarchies. Its experiences are local.
I did not have any of the problems that I had as a femme in the community in London that I have here. And there were even more when I lived/stayed in seattle and NY.
The atmosphere of fear of the gay is what drives femme invisibility. When that lessens, I find there are fewer problems for people within the community itself.
Before I left I would have agreed there was a hierarchy. Now I just think there are fuckwits I don't want to know or bother with.
Invisibility is real but when I exchange my visibility for lesbianism with perceived heterosexuality and availability to men I get all kinds of fucked up shit in return that I DONT have when I'm visible. Yes there are privileges to passing. I can go into the B&B and book a room when my partner gets told there's no rooms left. I get a job when someone else does not (I may have to be in the closet, but I got hired). But this is not about how I shouldn't have those rights - and these are rights, and everyone should have them, not have them taken away as a privilege I don't deserve.
But I would like the privilege that I won't be considered to be stupid, shallow, submissive, superfluous, silly, an item that can't understand complex conversations like a pretty plant, no capable, helpless, greedy, insecure, need a cock in my mouth to shut me up, a gossip, weak, meddling... I can go on... Because I am feminine. Even in the feminist circles of the just me hippy types my age, when I asked one of them, as we were in a group and having a drink and I could feel that old tension between being found attractive and being hated - and it felt like being around men - why didn't she put that she wanted to date femmes in her profile online her answer was: because she thought she's get responses from girls who were fluffy and shallow.

That sort of says it all right there really. My local lezzo community wants to fuck femininity but they don't want to talk to it.

Its deeply sexist. And it comes from feminists.

As a feminist I find this disgusting.

As a human it feels fucking debasing.

And it is really hard to get back into the zen mindset of "wanker bell end I don't want to talk to, and so are your friends" and not colour every single non-queer IDing lesbian in Vancouver with the same brush of "ignorant sexist wank rag" and despair.

My invisibility allows me access to RIGHTS we should ALL have. And its my job to use any privileges to ensure others have access to rights too.

However, if I want to bitch and moan about the rampant sexist fucking ass cheese about the basis of invisibility I goddamn well will. If you don't want to hear it, piss off then, I'm not making you stay and listen.

If you have issues of invisibility that are different than mine, open your big gob and tell me what they are. You have a brain and a mouth and I have ears and a brain.

Snowy, I would really appreciate hearing anything you have to say.

I am sorry that the environment here feels too hostile to you to be able to speak to your experience as a woman of color. I ALWAYS get kind of concerned when a conversation about race only includes the perspective of white folks, and I did have that concern here. For the record, I would welcome your perspective on that but also understand if you don't feel able to share it.

I don't intend to come across as hostile towards Femmes of color--I am hostile towards that picture LOL. What irks me about her opinion around the intersections of race and Femme, is that for me personally I don't believe that the privileges I access that Femmes of color don't have much to do with my femininity. It has way the hell more to do with my whiteness.

But, I know that lived experience is never simple and we can't really parse out the boxes we fit into in the world. If there is something we are missing around the intersections of race and Femme--I think your opinion would be invaluable.

Your whole post is awesome, but this anecdote is fucking fantastic. Seriously perfect way to handle that situation. I'd usually freeze up and say nothing, walk away, bitch about it to others, THEN think of the perfect retort! :|


Also, I'm loving reading all smart responses from all you fabulous femmes on this topic of invisibility--thank you!

Coming back to date in Vancouver after easy access to community has being unbelievably triggering of old shit. Of the being told I'm a cocksucker, and all other kinds of things by my peers in my own community. The younger ones are better. The ones under 35 seem to have a better grip. But I can't hang out with lezzos my own age without the constant conversation that makes me wish I was back in London. So I've stopped. I've stopped trying because it fucks me up. In the head I mean. I can't cope with the constant trying to defend being feminine.

In London the way I present is consider bog standard. In Vancouver the local dykes think I am OTT feminine. And that is about local perception and not a hierarchy. I don't think I am more femme than my flatmate who dress in jeans and t-shirts and no make up. If anything she's probably more girly than I am!

But I am interested about issues is someone wants to talk a about them, as long as they don't tell me to shut up about mine.

HB, I bolded the last line. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never tell you to "shut up." It's always good to hear what you have to say.

that was more in reference to reading that as a white femme lesbian, my issues or talking about my issues are annoying. OK, then I'd like to hear what people have to say. I'd prefer if I wasn't told what I deal with is annoying to hear, but I can sort of understand. when in London, where the quality of life is 68 times lower than in vancouver, when some of my friends would bitch about the harper gov't, I'd roll my eyes and think "holy shit, really??? you have no fucking idea... third highest quality of life in the world. REALLY??? I *wish* I had those problems...."

And now I do. And A) I am FUCKING GLAD I am no longer in a place with a grueling tripple recession going on (I wonder when the the gov't is going to admit they are actually in a depression??) and the shocking state of econmic break down... b) now that I am here, I understand what they are talking about with the harper gov't. Is it much better than London? holy shit yes. But you know what, belittling the destruction that this gov't, the papermill and the sulphur plant does to the locality was really fucking remiss of me. I love this place and I don't want it destroyed to the point that London is suffering in order for it to matter or be of equal importance.
I would rather that London's standard of living was brought up to Vancouver's and even better = not vancouver's priviliged life style brought down to London's so they can understand and be just as much in the shit.

So I do my best to educate people here about what life is like in the EU right now. Especially the UK. I do this through local conversations and face book and just daily chats with random people.
Just like I do with outing myself, everyday, all day.
When I am in danger of being gaybashed, yeah I can hide that, but 95% of the time I am in equal danger of being sexually assualted for being feminine. when out with a masculine of centre person, I know that if someone harasses her for being a dyke, I know that in under three minutes I'm going to be a target for being a slut. And vice versa. it's different sides of the same coin. the coin of sexism and fear and hatred of women.

That's my take anyway.

Ohhh I agree , Honey ,we are in a depression ~ the prices have been sky rocketing in everything ~ even tho here in Massachusetts ~ realestate is strong ~ BUT not enough new employers ~ unemployment has risen ~ college grads are taking their degrees elsewhere ~ that alone tells you ~ I feel bad pushing the ole GO TO COLLEGE theory ~ who wants to see someone 22 + yrs old starting off life w. a $-75,000. on their shoulders w. no job placement ?

I don't experience the femme's post about being that I shut up. I DO experience invisibility as a femme but more in a queer context than in the straight world. So I am a QWF as referred to in the post but am I *the* QWF? What I mean by this is her post a personal attack on ME? There are any number of things I run across on FB or comments on articles that super piss me off. Do I need to take on each comment as a personal attack on me or can I think about what they are saying, check myself and then adjust my attitude. I am sure I could post some rants about crap I have experienced and have people think wow that is about me! Maybe and maybe not. If it is about me ok so then what? I can personalize it or adjust my attitude or say no. I can still have my feelings.

My understanding of gender identities in POC communities is that they are very different than in white communities. What is missing from the femme's post is what her experience is. We are having a separate conversation here with no input from the original source.

Ok I am very clueless a good portion of the time. People have said the picture with the post disturbing. Why? What about it is upsetting? This is an honest and genuine question.

Hi Julie,

I excerpted a portion of your post that I feel deserves specific attention: In other words, I think your observation carries significant importance in that 1) we don't know the original author, who created the picture which takes on the idea that "Invisibility = Privilege" and, 2) although I cannot speak for FemmeInterrupted, what I took from her post was that she found that picture on Pinterest and found a way to bring that specific issue/topic into the larger discussion, so that 3) the discussion might be revitalized by examining aspects of privilege in connection to Femme Invisibility as experienced by people of color who identify as Femme.

May I suggest that even though we don't know technical aspects about the original author's identity, what we do know is that the picture depicts the opinion of a person who identifies as an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke.

In my opinion, the Afro-Latina Femme Dyke states that her experience is widely different than the experience of an Queer White Femme; in that she says she is "sick of QWFs [failure] to recognise that [their] "invisibility" entitles them to more privilege and forms of safety than femmes of color could ever dream of having access to" (reference: see photo first submitted in Post #205, dated 02-24-2013, in this forum thread).

I believe the original author's statement is a valid experience (even though the original author may or may not be a member in this community).

PS/ I too express my appreciation for femmes in our online community who share their experience in life as it pertains to femme invisibility: the 'highs and lows' that are a part of this particular phenomena we femmes experience in our day-to-day lives.

ohhhh. see I didn't read that. but of course, that makes sense.
well, of course I get more safety than femmes of colour... when I'm seen as just a straight white woman, and they are seen as just a straight woman of colour, of course I have more privileges. I'm white and that's the dominant culture where I am. So of course she has to deal with way more bullshit and unsafety than I do.

Of course a femme of colour's experience is compounded with racism. Of course it makes things more unsafe, jesus.

Still doesn't negate the dangerous sexist bullshit I have to deal with as an invisible white femme.

I'm afraid I'm still shrugging that she's annoyed with hearing white femmes talk about their problems. Be annoyed, then. If I shut up about that, then jesus, most of the stuff I deal with here, in canada, and not the Congo? Or in Myanmar??? we should all shut the fuck up. I have a roof over my head, I can pay my bills, I can EAT. I have heating. I'm not being shot at or tortured. wtf is femme invisibility in comparison to that, eh?

I also know that when I could not pay my bills, I had £10 a week to live on for two people for food and transport... my lesbian issues weren't exactly on the top of my list. and I had no time to contemplate those things.

first world problem.

so...

and?

I don't know what else to say about it. My life is fucking good in this town. I don't have to worry about being homeless anymore, I don't have to worry about being completely alone with no family, no friends, no citizenship, no visa, working under the table in sex work and hoping no one rats me out.

Life is pretty bloody good now and I really have no right to bitch about these things that I do. Oh no, I don't have enough money to buy clothes this year. Oh well.
Oh shit, I have only enough money for one zone transport and I have to cycle everywhere else (I am lucky enough to have a bike). Oh well.

Oh no, I can't hang with the dykes in my neighbourhood cause they are all assholes about my presentation. Well, I have my old mates living within walking distance from where I life and they love me. that's more than I had before. so boo fucking hoo.

Still, I do like a good moan now and again. But I am under no misconceptions that life is way WAY harder outside of this little present bubble and I'm utterly grateful for it. And I'm mindful that the people I left behind in their level of poverty? can't leave to go home. they *are* home. That goes through my head about every other day. They don't have what I do. I am incredibly aware of that.

I'm not ranting at you K.

I'm just flapping my text gums. So should I just shut up and not type at all about any of my problems because I know that other people have it way the fuck harder than I do right now? Probably.
I just bought a pair of gold-pink glam stilettos for $8 at a massive shoe sale. Life really isn't that bad for me, even if I don't have a lesbian or queer community right now.

well fair enough. she might not have ment "if I hear one more..." as not shutting the hell up. She's annoyed and giving voice to how she feels. it's the internet. If no one spoke up it would be a bloody dull place with no info on it, hey?

I'm giving a some text blab to how I feel. And I'm open to being given a word, that's fine too. I'm a blabby type that has an open stream of words that come out of my brain and into text and I process stuff by externalising it. I'm an extrovert. I'm about to have a piece of cheese and get back to study. I'm not twisted into a pretzle. I was annoyed, now that I've emptied my knickers out everywhere, I'm fine.

of course she has every right to say what she thinks and feels about her experience. She also has every right to say "I wish QWFs would all take a cumulative leap off a bridge" if she wants. Up to her. but then I'm used to hearing people tell me "for the love of god Babs, shut up before I shove my fist up your ass!" and I am usually pretty ok with that too ;)

A dose of what assimilation looks like aka life in Hawaii as a QWF
 

Aloha! (Yeah we actually start business correspondance with Aloha! here.)

What many people don't realize about Hawaii is that being white is not an advantage, it is in many cases a disadvantage. What what? Yeah hard to believe, but Hawaii is the reverse of the rest of the country. POC rule the land here and honestly living here has been one of the most amazing and humbling experiences of my life. The reversal of privilege borders on unexplainable and I'm usually not bereft of an explanation.

Interesting unknown fact #2 is that outside of Honolulu which is largely a tourist trap being queer is unremarkable. QFs (queer femmes) are not invisible or passing; it's much more interesting and mostly awesome. Consider a life 99% without homophobia, welcome to my life on TBI (The Big Island). Is it gay mecca here? No, it's going to work, paying bills, and no one making any distinction between queerness and straightness. It's "hey let's go to the beach" at random.

While outright homophobia is rare as far as I have experienced bumbling strait folks are fairly common. They mess up pronouns, the importance of marriage equality and stumble over the right word for a committed relationship, but they do so in an effort (usually) to get it right. It is unfathomable to most people here that anything LGBT wouldn't be equal. I'm amused and often softened by the "well that's just dumb!" and "that kind of crap still happens?" that comes tumbling out of their mouths when inequality is discussed.

That said transfolk and queens here in particular MtF's have an INCREDIBLY difficult time and largely remain on the down-low in an insular community. Nothing is perfect. Our office in particular is working as hard as we can to break down that stigma and as the younger generation grows up the old ways of transphobia are becoming a thing of the past.

So how is this relevant? Living in a place where what I am and how I identify is largely a "not thing" has been exceptionally freeing. I am no longer annoyed by my invisibility elsewhere in the country/world. This beautiful place has given me an incredible, powerful and unique to me confidence about moving through the world.

PS - No one here is unaware that Hawaii should be it's own nation, was stolen in a reprehensible way etc. etc. While MyLadyMother won't ever choose to become an American she would become a Hawaiian citizen if she could. Folks who move here love it or hate it and everyone has a really cool story about how they got here.

Pink geek, that is how I felt in London.
I was accepted, seen, and to be totally honest, my I'd of femme suddenly wasn't all that important anymore. I didn't feel like it was needed. It was just a side descriptor of little importance, like blonde.
Being accepted into a local community with no hostility or defense or accusations, I'd get openly checked out by dykes on the escalators in the tube... No one gave a shit if I was straight or gay, they would still talk to me in a gay pub and flirt with me.
It felt like a 10 pound bag of wet cement had been lifted off me. I had local lezzo friends for the first time in my life. I suddenly "got" what it was like to have a community, a real one, in person. I no longer called people "my femme friends" because it no longer mattered to distinguish them.

There was no hierarchy of femme, because femme wasn't really discussed. You just happened to be one. And in person, all these discussions happen with close friends.

I love my old mates here, they are like my family. But yeah, I really do miss the unconcerned acceptance into lezzo land and that dykes of all kinds were unafraid to just flirt with anyone they wished and didn't give a toss if they wound up being straight.

However, white imperialist nation? Yeah. White still very much the dominant culture!!! Unless you are an immigrant white. Then, you get treated like shit. And don't ever, ever forget you are a foreigner. But white foreigners get it easier than poc foreigners.

Same old chestnut.

Best description of "the spirit of aloha" I've ever heard, even though that's not what you were referencing. :)

I'm sorry you feel my word choice is dismissive. That happens to be the way that I talk, and I would also call myself out on "having a freak out" if I said something along the lines of "I'm sick to death of this group of people who are not me that don't realize this thing they find oppressive isn't half as bad as what I go through". I thought the entire photo was dismissive of an entire group of people, and it pissed me off so I said what I had to say.

Apparently I upset both you and Snow, and for that I am sorry.



This just reinforces to me why I never post or participate in BFP forums anymore. No matter what I say, or how carefully I word it, there are always people who will read insult in it. I hope that the conversation can continue, I think it's a valuable one, I'm just tired of having to defend myself constantly in this place where I thought I would feel safe.

Tis the thing about north american boards. One is talking to a public of a type of verbal interaction where you do have to be careful about insult. Which is why I dont post much anymore. My tone is too rough and my sense of humour too pisstaking and ironic/sarcastic. I know that what I've written above can be taken verify offensively. Oh well, I know what I mean, I think its OK with my friends who can challenge me back on the same level and then we can laugh, tease and discuss - which is my preffered style of debate. But people don't know me, so I try to keep my yap shut more often.
My face book is easier to have discussions as everyone k hows who I am and what I'm like.
It is so.etching of a skill to be mindful that no one knows me from a hole in the ground and my tone is likely make conveyed.

Had time to think
 

When I first read this when the OP posted I was like hmm.. I really could not share what I thought of it, I don't think anyone here or who is posting here would have read it and said or thought:

"I hear ya Snow, I get it"

I feel this way because it's clearly visible that WOC do not hang out on BFP, and if they do well we eventually leave. We leave because when we do express things in a non white washed way then it upsets people. So I now leave those convos for the right space and the right people.

I am unsure what the intent of the person who posted this image on Pinterest had, the OP did not have anything other than a collage, that I am assuming this WOC made and then posted it on her Pinterest or that she found it somewhere on Pinterest, shared it because it resonated with her.


I don't read it and see her as *freaking out* or not stating something that is fact. I do read it and see her words aren't soft, they aren't academic they are just her words. Maybe I am unsure because like I stated I don't know her intent other than she seems frustrated and maybe this was a way to express it.

All that is just a guess.

I do agree though, a white femme, will be more likely blend in than a Queer Femme of Color. That's been my experience. I know this and can say this with actual truth because as a light skinned Femme of Color the priveledges that sometimes get passed on to me are not the same ones my sisters who's cocoa skin are given. It's pretty fucked up but it happens....
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts
 

It's funny (not in a ha ha way but in the ironic way) that we both have this feeling of unsafety when posting. I know for me it comes from how I deliver things, they are never soft and pretty enough.

*I* did not make this space unsafe for you Andy, I spoke about the wording because as a WOC my experience is that when you do say something that white folk do not like to hear then we are painted as

LOUD

ANGRY

FLIPPING OUT

FREAKING OUT

SCREAMING

CONFRONTATIONAL

AGGRESSIVE


That's where I was coming from when I posted, it wasn't meant to imply anything ugly or cruel about Scandal Andy. I, personally at the time when I read it I was like..

"here we go"

Why?

Because it happens, it's happened and it will always happen that when a WOC uses art, media, music, or anything to express herself that unless it's prettied up then we are being *angry*


I don't get that from the collage, then again I get it somewhat....