I agree with you. I think we are speaking about femme counterparts, whether they're butch or trans.

In my butch-femme relationship, our identities and attributes interact to the extent that we define who we are to each other. I, in this b-f relationship, am probably not exactly the same as I would be in another relationship with another butch. The relationship doesn't define who I am. It impacts on other aspects of life, and, can affect them greatly. The same could be said for other identities, like who I am at work, at home, as a mother, or whatever else I assert as my role.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centric (that means "patriarchal"--right?). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.

I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.

I have not spent hardly any time as an unattached femme. I met someone and then immediately was defined by that person and his ID. The fact that my partner is trans has brought many suprising interactions my way both in the queer world and the straight world. I wish I could say that they were good surprises. So sometimes I feel like I have no clue who I am as a femme and that all the word means is who I am partnered with. That is why I love this thread!!!!!

I love all labels. I am a labely kind of gal. The supportive role and label we have talked about is one I don't like sometimes. As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

Dear Poodle... Thank you for reminding June of her humanness and in doing so, reminding me.

I am a woman of peace... Conflict breaks me and the good little girl in me comes out, because sometimes my voice is lost. I flinch at a silencing hand and I dare to revolt against it.

When I find my ground and the big voiced Femme in me appears, I stand up, not to be heard, but to stand tall within myself.

I have been silenced, though only for a moment in time, as I do remember who I am, and shame on the energy who has attempted to silence me, because when I do wake up and hear the voice of the speaker, I walk, and I will walk slowly with great belief in myself. Sometimes without even uttering a goodbye.

What a brilliant topic.

Julie

Oh my! Well I was a straight married mama. I have always been queer and attracted to butches but could not figure out why I did not fit in the lesbian world. Femme was not a concept or word I was familiar with. Finding out that there was a label for how I felt was a revelation to me. I also have OCD and only was diagnosed and treated in the past two years. I am kind of new in the world in general right now. So I left my husband who was and still is abusive and came out to all my friends and family. It's been Mr Toad's wild ride here!!! It's been a year since I left and just recently I have taken a breath and assessed all the changes in my life. Some are good and some are bad. Some are inevitable and I can't control them and others are choices I can reexamine. The main thing I know is that leaving and coming out was the right decision and has made me happier and more free than I had thought possible.

Yeah, my baby and I buck each other up. But for me, I'm speaking to that public and cultural perception that femmes have. The idea that the highest compliment we can pay a femme is to say she is supportive. Yet the highest compliment we can pay our counterparts is to say they are "strong."

I'm speaking in generalities, which is always sometimes true, yanno.

I do totally agree that the answer lies within. Our own truths lie within. But its damn lonely and hard to find those truths. I know that, particularly this last year, I've missed the femme voices in the forums.

Oh hell yeah, June. I am still struggling with this issue of being silenced in ordered to conform. I've done this for years and years and years. Only lately have I found the strength to draw a line in the sand and truly stick to my personal safety boundaries.

And it is more than hard. It's like concrete with those little rocks thrown in for texture. It hurts to rub up against. I don't like it but I have to maintain it for my own good.

It causes uncomfortable silences. It makes for hard conversation. It requires blunt, raw self-honesty that does not flinch when it looks in your mirror.

It is, one might want to say, not feminine.


QUOTABLE ALERT. I want to cross-stitch this and hang it in my house. Thank you.


This space here seems to be allowing us to do that at least in this thread. I don't go into some of the other threads so I may be missing things.

This was honestly one of the best posts of this thread for me personally. I have fought with myself over this one. The thing I get hit with when I voice an unpopular opinion or speak stridently or "meanly" is that I am being "toppy".

Same thing. Apparently femme also equals submissive (can someone tell Snow that because I'm just not that brave.) So it becomes a silencer to tell someone they are being "toppy" when all they are doing is expressing an opinion.

Having a voice doesn't make you dominant . It makes you human.

Thanks, poodle. Your next haircut (topiary included) is on me.

This is going to sound harsh.

There is time for you when you make time for you. Expecting others to fulfill your needs is a waste of precious time. Do for yourself or don't get it at all.

I do not mean that your partner can not complement you as well as compliment you. Far from it.

But how tiresome would it be to feel that you have to meet your partner's every need.

So I challenge you to make time for yourself this week and stick to it. :)

Harsh away!!! I didn't take it as harsh at all. I just spent the evening with my two sisters, a friend we have known for 20 years and my niece. It is way past my bed time!! I had a delightful evening.

I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.:twitch:

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!:stillheart:

I loved this, Junebug.

You are so mighty, mighty.

Femme certainly means different things to different people. For some femmes, it is their gender, for others, it is their sexuality, and for others, it is a descriptor.

For me, masculinity simply describes the energy. Our counterparts are more masculine than femmes.

My understanding of male-centric is a "centering" or anchoring of our community(butch-femme) around masculinity. It differs, in my mind, from patriarchy because we do not depend upon a "father-figure."

Yeah...It's that whole "you throw ALMOST as good as a boy."


Aren't there always private and public perceptions of just about anything? The public/private perception of a teacher? A doctor? A mother? A wife?

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...

LOL! That pretty much sums it up, for sure!
:laundryday:

I have been reading and rereading this thread, trying to wrap my head around some of the points of view and perspectives. Some things really hit home… others not so much, but I recognize that they are valid points of view.

What I am hearing is a majority consensus that we femmes are seen as supporting cast members rather than the headliners.

That we are seen as “less than” our masculine counterparts.

That we are seen as “less than” in our queer community.

That we have been silenced because our presenting energy isn’t masculine.

That we are the sum of our roles rather than an entity in our own right.

I also think that quite a bit of what is being spoken here is very generalized and vague. Perhaps it’s just that I am not in the majority in my experiences of navigating the world as a femme. Maybe it’s that like for some, femme is just another facet of me. If I start listing all that is Christie, femme, while important, is just an ingredient in the recipe of me.

While I can certainly understand all of these things, for the most part, they just don’t apply to me; or at least they don’t apply to the majority of my lived years. Is it that I feel like they don’t apply in my “real life” and that I see it happening more in online communities? Have we considered that the surge in BDSMers in the BF world might have something to do with the perceptions of being silenced, of being seen as less than and in a supportive role? It seems that the majority of kinksters in the Top realm of power exchange relationships are predominantly masculine and that most bottoms are feminine. That in M/s dynamics, the “s” is akin to chattel, without a voice or expected to have/use a brain, that in D/s, a submissive is consenting to the Dominant’s will.

I would hope that no one interprets my observation above about BDSM as anything but more in that I think as the subcultures of the queer world grow and expand, so does the coloring of our perceptions. I think that as a subculture within a subculture (BDSM within BF) becomes more highly visible and is the “chatter (latest, greatest new thing)” that “voice” or that image can be seen as the collective view.

In my early adulthood, yes, I tried to live the life my parents mapped out for me. It was very apparent to me that I could never be “that” woman. In the end, I had to give myself permission to live my own life. I think that all young adults, no matter gender or ID, have to move through this process.

Even in living that lie, I was still who I am today. Perhaps not as enhanced and evolved, but the core of who I am has always been there. Different qualities taking on more presence, or less presence, as I grew, matured and moved through the world.

There was a point made by evolveme about who we are outside our roles. For me, I think that even in shedding the labels, the attributes of that role are still present. For example, if I had not had the role of “mother”, I would still be a nurturer. I don’t think I would have quite the same depth of nurturing ability. For me, being a mother makes me be “better.” My perception of what being a mother means has meant those qualities, which I already possessed, were brought to the surface and utilized and challenged.

I don’t use males or masculinity as the scale by which I am measured, unless, of course, it’s to be superior. I never “threw a ball like a girl”; I always “threw a ball better than anyone else.”

I do think that my motherinlaw’s view of women has caused me to be more in “competition” with what she considers male superiority. When we were taking bids for floor refinishing, she said something about my crackhead, IQ of a piece of cardboard brotherinlaw and how she wanted to rent the equipment for him to refinish his own floors. I looked at Jess and said, “Oh fuck that. If he can do it, so can we.” Moral of the story, four weeks of backbreaking labor and love and we have amazing floors… all done at the hands of two women.

A man who inherited the business from his father employs me. Both are very staunch, conservative republicans with stay home wives and are both the walking, breathing epitome of male privilege. They had never had a woman in power at their company, in its entire 56 year history until I joined them 1.5 years ago. I could tell at the beginning that I would have to stand toe to toe with the elder so as to not be pigeonholed into what I felt his ideas of my role would be. The son, who is my age, has said that I have changed his father’s perceptions of women. Just last week, I was promoted and will be taking over the helm of the business in January. I am not so naïve as to think that I won’t have a struggle ahead of me just because I wasn’t born with a penis.

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

I, too, know my share of Femme Tops/Daddys. Gee, I even resembled that at one point in my journey; however removed it is from my life today.

Again, my experiences with M/s couples who are 24/7, part of the power exchange is that the "s" willingly consents to giving up autonomy.

I merely brought this up as an example of how we (the collective femme population) might have gotten to this point. This place where we are examining who and what we are and where we choose to carve out our niche in our worlds.

I appreciate the different experiences and the opportunity to see the world through others' eyes.

The way BSDM comes in to play for me is that if I am around anyone from the B/F community and someone orders their partner to do something for them (example from Arwen) it is difficult to know when it's a BDSM thing or a really bad manners sexist thing.

Also, in my area, it is hella shocking for a Femme to be a Top or have a dick....another thread....

On to another subject....

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?
Do I dumb it down around people when we are together and let her be the smart one?
Do I just look dumb?
What does this mean?

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

I think (and I could be wrong) that Christie was saying that a strong woman can choose to be "chattel" in a BDSM setting.

I also can see the problem with the word "chattel" and (for me), the word "slave". There is so much negative history intertwined with those words that I wince every time I see or hear them. However, some of the strongest women I know use and embrace those words in a BDSM setting.

And as I sit here..

I can't think of one slave I know

who is not strong

not one..

:blah:

Me either.

Has anyone here said that? I was just agreeing that some of the language used, taken out of context can seem to be something it is not.

Like if (to use Arwen's example) Goofy and Blush had agreed prior to the party that Blush was Goofy's slave for the evening, it would not be sexist if Goofy ordered Blush to bring him a beer.

PS. My apologies If I sounded like I was :)

Kosmo, thank you for that. I appreciate the support.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}} You know I love you, darlin, and I admire your mind intensely. I recognize what you want from the thread, and I heard you saying you didn't want this to be personal between you and Kosmo.

I dunno how Kosmo took it, but reading your post, it felt personal to me. Please let me explain why?

You said in the beginning of your post that Kosmo's choice to post confused you. Two things stand out for me. The first is, early in the thread we as a group said Butch/Trans input was welcome, and we engaged in conversations with the Butches and Transmen who posted. The second is, Blush asked Kosmo a direct question; she specifically asked for that post. Wouldn't have ignoring her been a subtle form of silencing her? It would certainly have been utterly rude!

What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."

I fully admit this is simply how I read it. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way, and if so, well, I apologize for derailing the thread.

I just know that I do not live in a vacuum and I cannot be authentically me without deeply examining all the parts of my life.... and half the examining comes from without, from testing my own thoughts, perceptions, and opinions up against those of other people. The people I value the most for that examining are always the people in my own community, whatever their identities might happen to be... I am looking always for the thoughts which shed light on my soul, and I find them as often from Butches and Transmen as from Femmes. I don't wish for any of us to be silenced.

Please know that I understand your goal for the thread is to have a deep conversation among Femmes; I appreciate your willingness to shepherd this convo... but if Butch/Trans voices are not welcome as part of that conversation, then I think we should be really clear and say so outright to everyone, and we should as a group stop inviting their participation.

*wry smile* I would say that since the very definition of Butch (unless we changed it again and someone forgot to send me the memo) is "Female Masculinity," that yes, Butch equals masculine to some degree. And I have seen this before, June, but in a sad way, Femmes deciding that since they are not stereotypical Good Girls, nor even stereotypical Good Women, that they must therefore not be Femme, must have been mistaken all those years, must not ever have been Femme, must be Butch instead.

Binaries that have no elastic to them make me sad. Why does it have to be either/or, and so narrowly defined? But that's what society teaches/preaches.

Only when you take it, darlin. Only when you decide that you, too, have the same value and worth as any other human being. Only when you break through the bonds of society's conditioning and insist, not just to everyone you have already taught to devalue you, but to yourself--for you are the one who devalues yourself to begin with--that your time is your own.

If you have small children, you may have to pay for that time with cash, to a babysitter. Think about how much you might pay a babysitter... and what that says about your estimate of your own value as a human being. I find most Femmes to be absolutely priceless, value beyond measuring... but someone who is struggling with the whole idea may only believe she herself is worth that five or ten dollars she pays a babysitter.

Someone who cannot "justify" paying the babysitter at all? Actions speak louder than words: she believes she is worthless.

Whether one has children or not, it's worth thinking about. What message would you want to give to [your] children about the value of adult women? Are they intrinsically priceless? Or are they barely worth the money it would take to pay a babysitter?

This is a good point, christie, and I ran into it repeatedly when I was newbie to the b-f world. Because I was new and also not part of the BDSM world, I didn't recognize for a couple of years that the attitudes I ran into were not typical of "Butches" but were, in fact, a subculture. Looking back, I think some of the Butches who were not part of that subculture were influenced by it anyway, because I found the attitudes pervasive for a while.

*reminds you* "bit" is NOT about pony play, "bit" is NOT about pony play....

I utterly HATE it when people assume the more masculine one is automatically the brains of the outfit. [My screen name came from that.] I'm not gonna be with anyone who is not majorly intelligent, since intelligence is a big turn-on for me, but really now.... I am more than just nice. I am more than just a Good Girl.

My intelligent partner has some pretty high standards of his own in the Intelligence Department. He is not with me because I'm glamorous, yanno? *eyeroll from the Homespun girl*

Maybe... I know that in situations of danger or possible discomfort, I use Gryph's masculinity as a shield.

I also know that I use my own clothing choices as a shield.

I also use just being partnered as a shield.

I would never go into a bar wearing "flirty feminine" clothes if I did not want to come out of the bar on someone's arm. That would just be asking for hassles, yanno? But if I am with my partner, I can dress any way I choose; it's safe.

I think you answered your own question. It is your Inner Femme asserting Herself, claiming Her own power.

Dear Poodle,

Please tell June that I am "not Butch enough" to completely dispense with question marks.

I would tell her myself, but I am afraid I might offend Kat.

Sincerely,
Cheeky Femme

:raspberry:

Bit Bit, you make so much sense!

I am so laughing about you and your pony play! *grin*

I do the question mark thing too. UGH.

The what we wear to the bar thing makes sense. It is totally asking for a hassle to wear something girly to the bar alone...so I resort to hanging my keys off my Levis, as if to say..."whatch, it I can poke your eyes out if you hassle me."

and Intelligence?

My Femme is smart.

So there!

:spider:

My Femme wants to talk about her "good girl" but is feeling emotionally spent today so is marking her place instead.

You made me cry. Right here at my desk. In front of everyone. And I dont care who thinks its messy.

Or maybe the situation made me cry. Lemme see what I can muster. (I always want to write "mustard" here because it's funnier but the Virgo in me cringes when I fuck up euphamisms)

Today I am sitting here at my desk at work where I really should be working but I am instead swirling in some heavy emotions and doing a lot of internal processing. I am listening to Angie Aparao on my ipod and he's doing a great cover of "Champagne Supernova" and maybe the pitch of his voice was just right or maybe it's the melody or the words but as I was reading your post, Adele, he sang the line "Where were you while we were getting high?" and he took the last note way, WAY out. The kind of sound where your heart is stretched thin like a piece of pink bubblegum and it feels the emotion of want and need and sound congealed behind notes and pulse.
So I cried. Because I am overwhelmed. Because I am sad. Because I am resolute. Because I am afraid. Because I am no longer afraid.

I have spent most of last night and today writing my resignation letter from a group that I have belonged to for 4 years. A group that has done important work that is specific to my way of being that I have always felt incredibly strongly about supporting. I came to a place at some point in the last several months where I realized that I had to step away. I came to a place over the last couple of weeks where I knew that stepping away would be scary. Over the last couple of days, I realized it would be painful. Over the last several hours I have felt a range of emotions from anger to resolve to sadness to something that feels like mourning.

I have been all at once afraid of the reactions of my fellow committee members and resolute to not care. I have struggled with being authentic and direct without being unecessarily hurtful. I have thought hard about my involvement with the organization and what it will mean to the friendships that exist inside of and outside of that space when I leave. My leaving centers around some ugly stuff. Mostly stuff that is outside of my control. Mostly stuff that is hurtful to the scope of the organization.
I am weary y'all. Weary to the core of my being.
I have for so long operated by trying to be authentic and honest but also on some level ,with a fear of confronting. Its hard. The "good girl" in me who says to "sit down, keep silent, smooth your dress, dont make waves, dont tell what you know" is very much at odds with the spiritual being in me that says "speak your truth, speak it clearly, demand transparency, demand honesty, stand up for truth".
This conflict has created a weird dichotomy in me in the last 2 days. One where I want to just vomit up a bunch of stuff in my resignation letter to show that I am leaving because things got too fucked up for me to be part of. Part of me wants to "go quietly into that good night". Part of me feels that either of these options would not be good. Part of me knows that there will be huge backlash for calling uncomfortable things out and shining a light on ugly truths.

I guess I came to this thread because I have often felt such peace in the arms of other Femmes. Such understanding. Such graceful beauty and love. And I need those things today to help the girl in me who is scared to speak to find her voice. And I needed to remember that I am not a horrible person for seeking the truth. Thank you, Adele.

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.