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hahaha that would have been me! I hate housework. I love cooking and making wonderful meals for the people I love but I hate hate housework. But I love my house clean. Thankfully I was able to finally hire someone until I find my own June or Tim. lol |
i've been pondering..
Just thoughts on the evolution of *woman*, all genders of women. Over the years women have been told what a real woman does, and sadly even by other women. We've been judged and torn apart, all the while trying to do the right thing.
So basically in the beginning.. 1) Tend to the farmhouse, feed the chickens, birth lots of babies, bake the biscuits, scrub the laundry, help in the fields (sometimes in the same day as birthing a baby) and read the bible to the babies by the coal oil light. Don't buck the husband and do as you are told. That's what a real woman does. 2) Graduate high school, marry the perfect man, please him, take care of him, birth the babies and take care of them while hubby is at the office. Make sure you've got the supper on the table and in your nice dress and pearls when he returns.. (June Cleaver).. "stand by your man " kinda thing...Be happy, make the best of it and be grateful. That's what a real woman does. 3) Get a job! Womens liberation yaknow! Work outside the home like the men do. Get paid, not as much but be happy you have a job. Work all day and come home like the men do, oh by the way, also do all the things in #2. Figure out how to get the kids and hubby fed within minutes at the end of your work day. Spend the weekends cleaning and cooking to get ready for that work week. That's what a real woman does. 4) What the hell are you doing working and leaving the kids at day care? No good mom does this, Stay home and raise those kids! Forget the job and life outside the home, your job is to raise kids and take care of the house. You are not a good mom if you work and have kids in day care. That's what a real woman does. i have never seen men subjected to such standards. Their "role" has pretty much stayed the same. Man is the dominant force. Women not so much. That's how i feel the evolution of *woman* has played out over the years. i wonder has anyone ever bothered to say *let a woman decide what is best for her and her kids* without judgment? Nope, conform or be judged. What is NOT brought up is what happens when Dad is a deadbeat and they have no choice but to work and leave kids in the care of someone else? What happens when the husband is abusive and she is scared to venture outside the home? What if she is trapped? What if the woman is queer? She was expected to marry a man without consideration of her identity. (my mother). It didn't matter as long as she did what was expected. Many times women have no option for what they do, yet they are still judged. i am sick of women try to explain, and be judged as to why they do what they do because it doesn't meld with society's idea of a real woman at any given time. Hell we weren't even allowed to wear slacks in the beginning! We have had to fight for our rights and privileges since the beginning. We have been shamed into feeling pregnancy was something to be ashamed of (not allowed on TV during June Cleaver's run). Women didn't swear or get dirty. All because men said it wasn't proper. When i was 12 my mother went and got a job. My father nearly came unglued. He showed up at her work and harassed her every day. Of course this was after 13 years of abuse, so it was to be expected. |
1977
The Song is called, "I'm A Woman." It is one of Peggy Lee's signature songs. The actress in the Enjoli commercial was a top model. Her name is Christina. Enjoli Commercial's Lyrics: Christina: I can put the wash on the line, feed the kids, get dressed, pass out the kisses and get to work by 5 to 9. 'Cause I'm a Woman, Enjoli! (Announcer): Charles of The Ritz Creates Enjoli. The New 8 Hour Perfume for The 24 Hour Woman. Christina: I can bring home the Bacon! Chorus: Enjoli. Christina: Fry it up in a Pan! Chorus: Enjoli. Christina: And Never, Never, Never let you forget You're a Man! 'Cause I'm a Woman! Chorus: Enjoli! Peggy Lee's Original Lyrics: I can wash out 44 pairs of socks and have 'em hangin' out on the line. I can starch and iron 2 dozens shirts before you can count from 1 to 9. I can scoop up a great big dipper, full of lard from the drippins can; Throw it in the skillet, go out and do my shopping, be back before it melts in the pan. 'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again! I can rub and scrub this old house 'til it's shinin' like a dime, Feed the baby, grease the car, and powder my face at the same time; Get all dressed up, go out and swing 'til 4 am, And then lay down at 5, jump up at 6, and start all over again! 'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again! If you come to me sickly, you know I'm gonna make you well. If you come to me all hexed up, you know I'm gonna break the spell. If you come to me hungry, you know I'm gonna fill you full of grits. If it's lovin' you're likin', I'll kiss you and give you the shiverin' fits. 'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again! I can stretch a greenback dollar bill from here to kingdom come. I can play the numbers, pay the bills and still end up with some. I got a twenty dollar gold piece says there ain't nothing I can't do. I can make a dress out of a feed bag and I can make a man out of you! 'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again! 'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N . . . and that's all. |
While i'm on a tangent.. ever notice how all of the cleaning product commercials are filmed with only feminine women using them?
Just once i'd like to see a man/big burly dyke in one! |
Jumping off Dee
It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all. I'm not going to get into the whole gender equality thing because in my perception there is no equality. And we all know that there are exception to the gender rules, however, how many men are working, raising kids and dealing with everything on Dee's list? Yes, there are SOME.
My mother worked in a factory to raise 4 kids living in projects. My dad helped some but he was too busy growing up. My granddaughters mother has two kids. There's Mia, my son's child and a child from her last marriage. I raised my son to be self sufficient. He was doing his laundry at age 12, helping to cook and clean. So helping her is never a problem. When they were not together he had no problem picking Mia up, even as an infant and taking her for the weekend. Some people were surprised by this. He just jumped right in changing diapers, feeding and bathing. When his buddy said "Babies need their mama. You part come later." he told him that was bullshit. That its his kid too. I too was a single mother going to school, working and trying to have a life. thankfully I have supportive family to help. So I make it a point to always be there for her no matter what. If she needs a break to do nothing I'll go watch the kids. Sometimes I don't think she realizes how easy she has it compared to some mothers. I see a lot of mothers really struggling. |
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I'm 50, and was raised in that whole 70's "you can do anything" era. What we ended up with was not anything....but everything. We kept the responsibility for house and children, and gained the responsibility for working and bringing in an income. It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others. Now we have time limits on public assistance, even for women with small children, because we insist that they work in order to get help. I'm not sure that's the best thing. People will say we are better at enforcing support on deadbeat dads now...and maybe we are. After all, my own father never paid a nickel and walked away. But, having just been dealing with the Child Support Enforcement office for all of this year and recieving nothing....I would call bullshit on that. My son was in childcare from the age of 6 weeks....too young for a freaking puppy to leave its mother, because I HAD to work. If I have one huge, overwhelming thing I feel guilt and sadness over...it's that. I never had the chance to simply stay home and be a mother, in part because I managed to reproduce with an idiot, but also in part because society as a whole decided that it was better for me to work than to simply be a mom. So, yeah, we can do it all. I have done it all. I've been a single mom, worked my whole life, always been the primary breadwinner, always been the housekeeper and cook, put myself though college.....so, yay me. I am fucking exhausted. |
Yup i've done it all too.
i think the difference is what's expected of us. Women have always done what needs to be done. What i have an issue with is someone dictating to women what is expected of them to be a *woman* A woman should be able to do whatever she wants/needs/desires to do without judgment or being told she is less than a woman/femme/mother because of it. am i making sense? |
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i am SO agreeing with this!!! |
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Yes women can do it all. And for a 3/4 of the cost, a fraction of the ownership and triple the workload. I sort of agree there is no equality. I'm not entirely convinced that equality should be the end goal. Parity? maybe. I do know I am unwilling to settle for less than at least equal by my personal definition of needs/wants. And in my personal pursuit of my life's liberty I remain committed to working toward the equity women as a community. Being raised by a super strong woman. One who really wanted to have babies and bake brownies... I've learned a thing or two about choosing and the unknown. My mom choose to marry my dad and have kids and planned on staying home with the kids. It didn't work out that way. And I am grateful. Because I got to see what it means to want and go for it ALL and the cost of doing it all (for less, with less and triple the workload). Now I know. People can say all they want about what I am supposed to do. How I should live and what ideal I should hold myself too. And I am not going to buy it. Not with out looking at it. Examining it, finding what fits, what doesn't and how it can be altered. I know I have it easier than my mom. Her telling me this doesn't make me angry or even doubt myself anymore. It reminds me who different choices and times lead to different outcomes. I treasure that she shares her lessons. Making my own choices and relying on community and resources is part of how I honor her. |
There are so many sides to that, and I can see and understand them all.
Having been a single parent, and then a partnered parent - partnered to someone who I did not share parenting responsibilities with- and then a single mom again, I have to say that the biggest part for me is that I have a choice. When my daughter was an infant I was dating a woman who wanted me to move in with her, she wanted to support us, put us on her health insurance, the full picture. It wasn't in an oppressive way for her, she just wanted family, wanted to take care of us. I didn't want that. She was awesome and I was crazy about her, but I didn't want to be dependent on her, no matter how much easier my life would have been if I had gone with it. Around that same time we were talking with friends and they were feeling badly for me because I was doing it all, working, taking care of a baby, etc. However, I couldn't tell them enough that I was so thankful that I had a choice. I was also able to put extreme emphasis on creative a life where I could take my daughter to work with me and avoid daycare until she was much older. The evolution may have brought us to a point where work/self support is not an option for single parents, and I hate how social services works with mothers, especially new mothers, and especially when newborns are in daycare and mother's hearts are being torn apart over it. I hate all of that. But the flip side to is it, is that without the ability to go out and earn a living, women would be forced to remain in unhealthy, abusive, and unfulfilled relationships because they most often wouldn't have another way to support themselves. That's not a power dynamic I'd ever want back and it's not a home I'd want to raise a child in. |
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I use to get angry and pissed off by all the fucking obstacles I had to surmount. I felt cheated and often depressed having to do it all alone. I built this farm for me and my partner. Busted my ass and assumed huge responsibly just for her to fuck up, cheat and basically left me holding the bag. We didn't have kids but we had animals. Yeah maybe I am a little exhausted now that I think about it all. My best defense is to live my best life and not pay attention to the fact that I'm considered a minority. lol |
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This is what i am talking about too. NO CHOICE. When my sister told my Mamere (grandmother) that she was getting a divorce my Mamere replied (in a hushed voice) that she wished divorce was an option in her day. Made me sad. That woman had a hard life at the hands of my Papere and what was expected of her, because she simply did not have a choice. No options. Women were evil if they even spoke about divorcing, even with an abusive asshole. It was just not talked about. So many times say *but mom was happy!*.. was she really happy or finding happiness in a hopeless situation? Making the best of it? Doing what she thought she was supposed to do? Saving face for the kids? Did June Cleaver have a choice? |
Thank god for housekeepers :praying:
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If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.
It's our fault there is no women's movement. |
Well...........
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I'd like to thank the the Leather Entities for houseboys/bois/girls myself..... :fastdraq: |
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What a good point! |
I'd like to see a big burly dyke on TV at all.
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How many children and grandchildren of immigrants are screaming for us to close our borders? Lots....and it makes me sick. Same thing. Too often, people "get theirs" and then turn their backs on the people coming up behind them. Getting on a soapbox here....but I want to slap women of my age who let their young daughters absorb these messages of "what you look like is what you are" and don't say a word, and the media that perpetuates it ad nauseum. I still contribute to the scholarship fund for low-income women at my alma maters....because college is what pulled my personal fat out of the fire. And I've raised my son to respect women and truly view women (and girls) as equals....not from that "let me help you little lady" place, but on an equal footing. I'm a mentor in my professional life, and my current "mentee" is a young woman...."coincidentally" they all have been....and generally women of color. And, an old habit from the 80s....if I'm standing in the voting booth and I'm faced with a choice I haven't researched enough to have a strong opinion....I choose the female name. Just cuz. I'm not saying all this to pat myself on the back....I just wish we would all recognize what we can do to further equality...and keep pushing it forward in even small ways. |
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Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore. i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me. |
For years i was in the Big Sister program. Most of the girls were POC, poor, throwaway girls. Young, sometimes pregnant, sometimes pregnant with their own fathers/stepfathers babies. You wanna talk about some girls who feel hopeless?
Many times they joined me in Christmas at my Grandmothers because they had no where to go. i'd take as many as i could fit in my car. i had to be the shero, feed my own ego yaknow, only now i wonder if it made things worse for them. i am glad we have POC in my family because i imagine it was strange enough walking into the Cajun Christmas madness at my Mamere's. After a little while they would relax but that had to be scary! Quite an experience that i hope they look back on and smile. i hafta tell you that it only made me hate society more because i then had to return them to the girls home, i felt like a total prick. For one day they were treated well, my family always had gifts and my Mamere always had extras because she never knew who i would be bringing with me. Then to go back to the home, that sucked. i hope that our weekends and holidays made them feel less hopeless. i tried to expose them to what life could be like for them. That they were not hopeless. If all girls have to use as role models is what they see on TV, that's a sad case indeed. |
Thoughts on dee's post
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It's funny I never viewed Queen Latifah as *butch* she's like myself I feel in that she owns her masculinity. The reason I say this is because it's a misconception that cultural comfort and acceptance with masculinity and being a queer woman isnt necessarily tied to being butch. I would be considered a *macha* in my particular part of cultural POC labels. I own my masculinity so therefore someone can automatically assume me being butch if I wore a particular garb. This is Queen Latifah as I knew her as a wee lil lass: Her evolution into her woman hood has gone from masculine hard to feminine soft (in clothing and appearance) I never thought in her evolution as a woman of color in the rap/hip hop/urban culture/industry was anywhere near butch, it was her finding a balance and playing with her masculine and feminine traits that she has and was born and raised into |
back ground
As a matter of fact
Latifah is Egyptian for *delicate* *gentle* *pleasant* Her name right away clearly points that she own's her feminine person:) |
Good points, well taken, thank you.
i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that. i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today. i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies. :) i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today. |
I don't think i've ever thought of Queen Latifah as a butch. But, i have majorly picked up on her masculine energy. For me, it's on the lines of Jodi Foster or Ellen. I don't *think* they claim the id as butch. It's the masculine energy i'm talking about. It's there without saying a word.
OMG is that hot or what. MAJOR swooooooooooooooon!!!!!!! |
More thoughts
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Latifah came out in the late 80's, I remember going to a store on Mission St and buying her LP "Hail to the Queen" She was AMAZING, she not only wore traditional garb with confidence she wore it with pride. Her style was hard and her rhymes are about strength and perseverance, in her single "Ladies First" : This particular song is a Feminist anthem. "Come to My House" - pens with the ultra-diva line, "Welcome into my Queendom..." It wasn't until the movie "Set It Off" that the assumption and assignment of butch was placed on her because of the look she portrayed in the movie as a matter of fact all four of the women in the movie had "masculine energies" http://img.movieberry.com/static/pho...48/16_midi.jpg http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...0/bdd11c91.jpg The Queen was a continuous movement by the women of color in the hip hop/urban/rap culture women were claiming their space, they did it hard, they did it strong and it SCARED people and changed the music scene and opened it so women like MIA, Nicki Minage. Missy Elliot is a great example of masculinity and femininity being fluid in a woman she could go from hard to soft real easy and not skip a beat. If I was more comfortable pulling out old pictures, I can show you in *chola* clothing how I can easily convert my appearance from feminine to hard masculine with just a few accessories.:) |
PLEASE READ DISCLAIMER
READ DISCLAIMER PLEASE *** I would like to keep this conversation as a FEMME ONLY conversation. If you would like to have this very conversation about the "totem person" of your gender please do so in in your specific Zones. If like myself you want to keep it to specific identity/gender ask in a disclaimer so the conversation is uninterrupted. I've discussed this particular detail with Medusa and got the OK to ask for this allowance*** Thank you |
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As a mom I think that kids do well when there is a parent at home. Does not matter if it is Dad or Mom. That is the feminist part to me. Balance is about raising a family and having everyone do their part. Mom cannot do it all! That is the message that I felt was given to me growing up. I had to do it all. The movement was not successful at all for middle class women when the message is that we have to work and take care of the house and take care of the children. There are not a lot of safety nets or social structures in place in this country to help working mothers. That is a problem. So what is my part and responsibility? One is to realize that the manufactured ideal of a modern woman fed to me by the media is not feminism. That was hard for me to learn! You and Bully and others here on this site helped me figure that out. I thank you for that! I hope my daughter will be a mom someday. I want to support her in her growth as a woman. I want to tell her that working and raising a family is all doable and I want to help create the social structures that will make that possible. |
This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.
I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine. I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought. However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company. I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge. I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge. |
There were rumors that she ID'd as butch in her private life. Who knows?
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this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.
we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others. i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity. like changing the oil in the car. You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that. |
To me, regardless of her feminine dress or appearance, the Queen always felt to me as butch.
Of course, it may or may not be how she identifies herself or how anyone else perceives her. I "feel" butch/masculine energy from women. As in many things, my perception may not be correct. I enjoy it when I feel it. |
but does masculine energy always equal butch?
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To me, masculine does equal butch. Are femmes strong and powerful? Absolutely! It is a femme energy to me. Their/our/my energy is always femme, even if kicking ass and taking names (exaggerating here, of course). Again, how I see it and feel it. |
Well, I def have some masculine energy. But I don't ID as butch. I just do. I don't dislike it. I actually think of it as boy energy, and it is fun. But it's not something I foreground in intimate relationships.
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Jumping off about QL.
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My retort was that while it may be true that she had to be less butch to be successful in mainstream media.... (I've never read an article about that or researched it so I don't know) who are we to assume that it wasn't her choice. I feel the same way about Queen Latifah. It's a particularly queer kind of arrogance (no offense Dee I'm using your comment as a jumping point) that we assume when someones gender/presentation evolves from butch to femme, or trans to femme or femme to butch etc. and so forth that they are either being forced to by society or they are being a traitor to their gender/identification. In NO WAY am I saying society hasn't and doesn't pressured people to present themselves in a specific way to be successful, but I think we do need to be careful not to lay judgements and assumptions on especially successful women. Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author. I really needed to step back and examine that being a queer author isn't a must because she has same sex relationships. It's her right as a woman/human to choose to put being an author ahead or being an activist. We put so much pressure on those who are successful and who are representatives of our queer culture. At what point are they allowed to just make a choice without inspection. By default they are spokes peeps and representatives, but it's not by obligation. Feminism in it's most simple form to me is choice. Having the knowledge and education (doesn't have to be formal) to choose to be an astronaut or a stay at home mom. Feminism to me is also choosing not to judge informed decisions by women. Women queer or straight face enough adversity and judgement without me adding to it. Your mileage may vary - mine isn't perfect. |
very well said pink !
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Yes very well said! Thanks you for being considerate but i am not offended in the least.
i hope our posts do lead go deeper thinking and sharing a pov. It has been an observation that sometimes what i feel is butch energy is held down in Hollywood or even the music industry. i do certainly want to be aware that women do sometimes flow in and out if their own energies and not just to please their manager. i do think it's less popular to be butch - like in Hollwood and maybe that's a pressure on entertainers, i don't know. |
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Fannie Flagg?? Inquiring minds . . . . |
No
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No, Studs, Agressives, dykes, machas, cholas, Femmes have it. I know I do there's no arguing it. It is what it is. Masculinity isn't gender specific. |
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I am later arriving in my life to the Femme scene. So I am not quite sure how to say what is traditional and non traditional femme in presentation and energy. I identify as Femme. My dominate presentation in dress/style is Femme. I don't quiet go as far to say my gender is Femme. Because I don't feel like I have a gender and sex. I've been assigned one. I am not opposed to my assigned gender and sex. My energy is a bit something I do not qualify as masculine or feminine. Sometimes I flow better with those that are presenting as masculine in energy. Sometimes with femmes and the "I don't know what you are talking about I am just a woman" folks. Because to me my energy is just me in the world doing what I do. I may be interpreted as masculine or feminine (or just weird) by others differently at times. And the interpretation of my energy as a type of gender and reacting to me as if I am masculine or feminine drives me batty. It is as if they missed the point. |
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