Butch Femme Planet - Open Letter: Dear Femme

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- - Open Letter: Dear Femme (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben-Her (Post 13994)

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

I truly love and respect the duality of a butch-femme relationship. It's the type of relationship I choose, and I find it exhilarating and intoxicating. I know that my partner reveres me and derives much of her identity from the nature of our relationship. But, I still struggle with the idea that I am defined in relation to her. "Her butch to my femme." Without the two, one is incomplete. That is why I end up concluding that my femmeness is a trait, not an identity, even with the butches in my life nodding affirmatively to the idea that I am "a" femme. I can't be "a" femme until my femme isn't dependent on anyone's butch, neither their approval nor their partnership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben-Her (Post 13994)

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

Basically, because this is a butch-femme website. I was referring to my experience within this dynamic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonne-maman (Post 13665)

I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.

BonneMaman, I actually think humans as a whole *tend* to think they are not good enough. I'd go into a long diatribe about competition in all things (and I do like competition) that make children feel like failures if they don't bring home straight A's.

I remember getting HYSTERICAL (no, I am not inflating that) over a C on my report card. I was sure I would never go to college and never amount to anything.

I was 10.

I think I've dragged that grade baggage into my world now. Am I just a "C" femme if I speak my mind? Do I get a "B" if I wear a dress instead of slacks? Is it "A" behaviour to bake a pie?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passionaria (Post 13686)

I think it is important to note, that we did not create these conditions, we were born into them. So, do we owe allegiance to these false pretenses? What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

I think that worse than being born into them, many of use (myself included) perpetuate them. I nearly smacked myself for correcting my 8 year old niece with "nice girls don't do that." WTH? Right out of my mouth. In front of my sister and cousins who all nodded in agreement.

And the feminist dyke trapped inside was raging about what I'd just done. She did not get a chance to correct that. I hope I will live to be a better example for my darling niece.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 13690)

I don't feel that the syndrome of gossip, shunning, or the naming of the slut is entirely based in misogyny. I think it is first and foremost Fear based. So many of us have found a place where we belong after a lifetime of NOT belonging.

As someone who was one of the ones who did shun you and ostracize you, A, I can only say thank you for forgiving me. I bought into negative gossip (and participated in it.) It is one of the reasons I have been working on myself to NOT gossip/backstab/talk ugly about others. I fail. Oh Gods how I fail. I fail at this so much but I will try to correct myself immediately.

I am not proud of how I treated you, but I am glad we made up.

Now about you dating a femme. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonne-maman (Post 13679)

I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all" :musicnote:

That's the Thumper quote for me. "If you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all." Need to tattoo it to my TONGUE. laughing

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 13756)

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

Do you think we (girls) were taught to internalize our rage as opposed to hit or fight physically like boys so that we were more controllable? I mean not necessarily intentionally in this day and age, but back when this "feminine corralling" started? I am not sure I'm making sense.

I do think women punish one another by shunning them. I don't know what men do. But the ostracization is stunningly effective on many of us because it feeds directly into that fear of not being good enough. Not an "A" femme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bit (Post 13818)

People have beliefs that are vitally important to them--usually they involve "Truth" in some manifestation--and they seem to feel driven to keep others from expressing anything different.

This spoke so directly to my heart, Cath. I had to requote it. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by julieisafemme (Post 13876)

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Oh how I loved this letter. I can't begin to count the ways. Julie, hang in there. Check around to see if there is a femme tea or anything in your area. One of my most vivid "wakeup" moments was in a Hamburger Mary's in Orange County when a certain superfemme smacked me upside the head and told me to stop wearing baggy clothes. And then proceeded to buy me a t-shirt 2 sizes smaller than I normally wore. OY! She's a mean one, that bobble-headed girl. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14001)

I don't allow her anything. She is, therefore, she deserves. She was a "strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven" woman BEFORE we met. This is whom I was attracted to then and it hasn't changed.

I knew my words would fail me and in an attempt to simply say thank you, THIS is how we can easily become silenced. ( Some folks asked for examples. Here is one). Sometimes, as it has been pointed out, we use different vernaculars or even "less words" to say something poignant. I said thank you, I will leave it at that.

e, as I read your response to Ben-Hur I was thinking of my wife, K, and how she has evolved in her definition of femme. I have found that it evolves over time as she does and she redefines it again and again in her own terms. She has many roles (i.e., student, wife, partner, friend, lover, social worker-to-be, daughter, sister) and desires (mostly related to wanting to be a mom and license social worker as well as to have me permanently around her) but in her core, from my POV, there remains that femme that comes through -- both in the superficial visible and the deep inner being.

I wanted to find a way to define this and so I did my usual Google search. This time I entered in "define femme" and hit upon the nefarious Wikipedia's (yes, yes, I'm the biggest advocate of staying away from there but I got distracted and.. oh! Shiny!) definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femme and was surprised. Lots of mention of what a butch is but very little mention of what a femme is (in fact, unless my old eyes are failing me I can't find a true definition in there other than the fact that the term is a derivative of the french term for woman). HUH? A woman's woman? Maybe that's it.

She is what a woman strives to be: strong in her own right and knows when to let her guard down. I'd almost say that my aunts and grandmother fit into this except they miss that one last key point: they are straight. Part of what makes a femme a "woman's woman" is that she sees love in others that society turns their back on. She is, to me, stronger than narrowness of society.

My brain has more to add, if it's ok, but I cannot find the words. It'll come, I'm sure. (not like I'm known for brevity :cheesy: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by julieisafemme (Post 13876)

I am using your post super duper Femme to write my own letter to the baby femme that is me. We hear about baby butches a lot. I am a baby femme at the ripe old age of 43! Anyway this is me writing to the new fresh femme me. Yes this is all about me. Hee hee.

Dear Baby Femme-

Why are you scared of femmes? Why do you feel like you are back in the sixth grade? Why are you intimidated by someone who identifies as a high femme? I think it is because you feel less than. I think it is coming from inside and not how anyone else identifies. Can you see that? Can you see that creating hierarchies is bad for you?

I know you feel like a big loser sometimes because you are new. I know you feel defined by others because your first and only partner is a transmasculine butch. It's ok for you to identify and call yourself whatever you like.

It's scary to be in a group of women. That has sometimes not gone so well for you in the past. I know it is easier to focus on the masculine beings in your midst.

I know you feel out of place in a group of femmes without the straight married mom mask you used to wear. It is just another aspect of coming out. Maybe life can be more now than just talking about kids, vacations, home renovations and other things that never interested you in the first place. I know you have seen how exciting it is to be around people who talk about ideas instead of things.

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Love You very very much my sweet baby femme.

Julie

Dear Julie Baby Femme,

I don't know how I missed this.

Thank you for reminding me what that time felt like. The freedom and the vulnerability and the fear and the fucking wonder.

I remember exactly how cool it was to finally find women that wanted to talk about ideas instead of bake sales too.

You even made me cry a little bit. I don't want to have to tell you how incredibly hard this has become for me.

I'm glad I get to witness you.

With a whole lot of love in your direction,

e

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 13950)

This is for both Blush and Kosmo, and really anyone else that thought I might be asserting something negative(?) about a particular set of gay males.

Relational Aggression is a theory of social psychology. I believe that whenever it is not acceptable or ALLOWABLE for the human animal to attend to their aggressions openly as masculine people more often do (via threats, intimidation, posturing or acts of socially condoned violence) that she or he will attend to them in a relational way. So not only do we see these behaviors in the culture of certain gay males, but also in the business/organizational culture.

I simply didn't want to go into all of that as it isn't relative to the feminine people on the whole and how women and girls are primarily socialized.

I didn't think anything negative, it just jumped out at me.

I'm familiar with that theory, although I probably need to brush up on it.

I would call it into question when applied to the queer community.

Come to Austin for coffee and we'll debate, yes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SyrJess (Post 13979)

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

Jess,
This is a beautiful testament to femmes, and to YOUR femme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 14008)

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]
Do you think we (girls) were taught to internalize our rage as opposed to hit or fight physically like boys so that we were more controllable? I mean not necessarily intentionally in this day and age, but back when this "feminine corralling" started? I am not sure I'm making sense.

I do think women punish one another by shunning them. I don't know what men do. But the ostracization is stunningly effective on many of us because it feeds directly into that fear of not being good enough. Not an "A" femme.

What I believe is that the result of teaching women/girls to "be good" and "not fight" was that they were made easier to control. What I believe is that the primary incentive was an evolutionary one: if females acted out aggressions physically they would be too likely to miscarry. This would directly impact the survival of our species in a negative way at a time when it mattered, i.e. a long ass time ago when we hadn't yet overfuckingpopulated the planet.

In this way, I believe that tools of the patriarchy, and the patriarchy itself, arose out of an evolutionary incentive. Their time has come and gone.

This belief is not a popular one. I'm sure you can see why.

And I could talk a long time about it, but I won't. <cheesy grin>

Quote:

Originally Posted by SyrJess (Post 14016)

I quibbled with myself over the word "allow," and should have changed it. I didn't intend it in the way that you interpreted, I think. I wanted to speak to "butch to my femme" and I wasn't alone in that. I also spoke to you privately and publicly about my fond feelings for your devotional post.

I'm not sure if you're saying you feel silenced by me. If you are, I'm going to have to ask that you reconsider my intentions, which were only to highlight the ways we might be unconsciously subsumed and dismissed. Beyond that, it is contrary to the purpose of this thread for me to host your feelings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blush (Post 14030)

Only if you bake me a pie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14068)

Only if you bake me a pie.

Vote for apple.
Jus' sayin'.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14001)

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

Gawd, I want to needlepoint your last sentence on a pillow.

And I've been thinking a lot about what you've said about roles.

And that got me thinking about my child. If I were to ask her to describe me without referencing the fact that I am her mother, would she be able to do it to my satisfaction?

No.

If I were to ask a friend to describe me without referencing my role or my contribution to their life as a friend, would they be able to do it to my satisfaction?

Probably not.

Your post resonated with me, e, but I don't know why. SyrJess's post resonated with me, but I don't know why.

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blush (Post 14129)

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

It may be difficult, but I don't think it is impossible.

I want them to understand why it is so important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blush (Post 14129)

Do you think those who are partnered can do that for their partners as well?

Sometimes the English language is far too small for the concepts and ideas we need to express.

I have to anchor things with symbols that mean something to me.

Good mom
Wicked Stepmother
Prince Charming
Black Knight
Hermit
Cheerleader

Then I can expand around those word anchors. I am not sure any one can describe themselves in a way that they would find satisfying.

When I try...I start with labels. Femme, queer, poet, author, aunt....

So without those labels, who am I? Who are you?

Does this make sense? I fear I am missing my own point again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 14135)

Totally get what you're saying...

I think I'm being a tad more specific and asking is it possible for our masculine counterparts to describe us adequately without referencing the role we hold in their life.

I would HOPE that ANYone in a relationship, would be able to describe their partner's heart FIRST.

This ~ granted ~ is only MY opinion. But if someone tells me they have fallen in love with me because I'm a femme....or a woman.....or Irish.....or a Mom.....or whatEVER OTHER than who I am in my heart, I would question it. And of course, it would be up to ME to speak my heart....and up to THEM to listen and hear my heartbeat.

Geez, I don't feel I'm choosing the right words here, so please forgive me for my inadequacies.....

That is not to say that I don't have the heart of a woman....or a femme...etc.....

My heart is full of who I am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 14135)

spoken language is so damn limiting, isn't it? i find myself flailing for ways to adequately express the damn chaos in my damn mind. dammit.

i just finished rereading one of my fave science fiction books (octavia butler) about a species (wholly peaceful, thank the stars) that could link in to the nervous system of others and understand every damn thing without having to say a damn word. i don't know if i'd love it or hate it but i damn sure wouldn't mind trying it for a day.

(any guesses about my word of the day?)

SNIP...

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14001)

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

day-um!

:seeingstars::clap::thud::cheer: