MTFs and FTMs are human beings (not caveats or special categories) and they are lesbians if that is how they choose to identify. That's why I dislike your definition of lesbian based on anatomy. That's why MTFs aren't welcome at MichFest. Nobody qualifies or is disqualified based on what they have or don't have downstairs.

Wow!
 

So now we're gonna "other" Trans folk? Really? Are we really going to be ugly? WTF? I don't understand why the continued erasure, they're LESBIANS cause that's their IDENTITY! Is it that difficult to grasp?

Identity categories need to be porous. Otherwise they are another excuse to police and oppress. Rigidly defining identity categories is a classic, classic form of oppression among members of a group. It's not the point. How useful IS it to have a definition that is completely consistent? Not at all. Not unless you are interested in excluding people or in treating some members differently.

On the other hand, how useful is it to have a definition that is so fluid and porous that no one knows from minute to minute what is meant by a term? It's quite the conundrum when we talk about "members" of something but no one can agree on what that something is. Maybe "exclusion" isn't necessarily the automatic perjorative we assume it to be. We aren't all Polish either. Though I suppose we all can become Polish once we know the criterion.

Oh how exciting to look in on the thread I started and see 7 pages already! Woohoo :)

Okay so now I've read through it and maybe most of it is off-topic, but I do love you contentious people. <3

I also feel much like dykeumentary posted - we are not the actual problem even when we fight tooth and nail with each other over stuff.

I don't think every butch has an especially pronounced feminine side, just like I don't think every femme has a pronounced masculine side. However, I am a femme who enjoys my masculine side and hates to feel shamed or squashed or excluded for not fitting some imaginary femme mold.

I also love me some butch pride where it applies. I'd hate to see butches excluded from butchness by people in our community with narrow views of what butch is.

A long time ago on a site far away, a self-identified butch told me that she wore women's underwear because it fit her and from time to time she enjoyed wearing lipstick. This was a really neat butch - cute, smart, thoughtful, etc. and she was a butch - no mistaking that. But she also said she would NEVER admit to these facts about herself online, as she would no longer be considered butch should she do so. I puzzled over that for a bit - back then I was still a baby femme and didn't really understand much about how gender pressure happened. But over the years, I've seen some really awesome self-identified butches hide their girlier qualities for fear of ridicule and I've seen some butchy people avoid b/f space and identity due to what are perceived as rigid definitions - while at the same time feeling isolated by non-b-f lesbians who often really don't know quite what to do with a butch or a femme - the loudest of these often being the most unwelcoming voices. And so with slices from both sides, these folks remain in the desert - deprived of the comradery, the shared knowledge, and even the bickering that we get to indulge in. I personally think that's a pity.

Change ....
 

Words have an original meaning and then may have evolved into a broader
or narrower meaning. We, as humans, recognize that things have changed
over the course of time. I think as caring, thinking, compassionate people,
it would serve all of us well to embrace the ever-changing meaning of words in
our own community.

While I appreciate everyone's input into any conversation, I have to say
the intent of some seems more combative than constructive.

To quote my dad, "Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one"

That being said....I'm enjoying this discussion even though it has gone
wildly off-course.

If someone feels the need to judge me.....
I hope it is for my intent instead of poor word choice.

Isn't it possible to have this conversation without imputing other peoples' "intent", particularly a negative intent? A benefit of doubt might prove more

Threads getting off topic is normal here, but is anyone else wondering why there aren't more butches in here talking about aspects of femininity? To me that is what is most striking.

I tried to delete my post but wasn't quick enough. I just don't want to go there. Apologies to all.

You talking to me?
 

I was merely stating the way the situation seems to me.

Also, I am fairly sure that is acceptable language to use.

If it isn't, I'm sure someone will let me know if I have violated TOS.

I suspect that there is a high probability that the answer to my question is "yes".
However I'm ok with the response.

Is there perhaps a level of exposure here that doesn't seem worth the risk?

Nat, I don't think that there is one single answer, but I tend to think it is more that many butches fall through the cracks and don't feel they fit in too well in BF online communities (mostly due to whole butch scale thing) than they are sitting here reading and wanting to post and are afraid to. But, no one answer fits all.

*sigh*
 

There are as many ways to express ideas as there are people expressing them.

If so, I think that's unfortunate. The community suffers and so do individuals who might feel excluded unnecessarily.

My ex identified as butch. She wore mascara and eyeliner...more than I did. This was normal to her and she felt very attractive when she did...did some people have a problem with... I guess so, but that just due to there ideals of what butch looks like or how they like it to look. It's not common but you do what makes you feel good and she could have cared less what anyone felt or thought. No clue if she had an inner struggle with it but I doubt it.

Be you, we don't have to be the same.

Yes, I agree Nat. I have known butches personally who did not feel they fit in. Then again, some of them also are not real internet types. They might just spend a few minutes online or maybe play arcade games, then they are off to spend time with family and such.


I do hope people who are here feel comfortable talking about various aspects of their gender. I do love to hear about it.

Wait wait wait wait….in my understanding, gender ID and sexual orientation are two separate things……which means that transgender folks should have the right to a sexual orientation, which could possibly be lesbian…….si o no?

Yes that is what I was saying. Anyone who says they are a lesbian, is a lesbian. People have different reasons for iding that way.

The concept of butch femininity is interesting and even more importantly I am quite happy of how the posts evolved into something that I believe has been simmering for long time within the LGBT . The good, bad and ugly of it all in one thread. One thing I can not stand is the extreme extent of political correctness practically causing paralysis in our inability to discuss things openly and without perceiving harmful intent.

Some great posts from Miss Tick, Kobi, HB for example. But there are too many points to address, but fundamentally the unrest from within the ‘community’ and use the term loosely is due combination of ambiguous definitions/IDs and the battle to be all inclusive. This is a situation that is not reserved for online community only I personally witnessed and experienced in real world as well.

I never liked ID - Butch in my past for primarily the same reasons Miss Tick outlined (1st post). It was and some ways remains to mean ‘male’ vs masculine. The patriarchal dominance was not something I wanted to automatically embrace at the risk of leaving my equal matriarchal strengths behind. For me, my femininity is the ability to embrace and utilize my masculinity however I please, while remembering and loving - I am female. We all posses both energies within us. I enjoy the masculine elements that surface, but I still buy women’s clothes along with some male clothing, because I want to and I can.

Our biggest umbrella is that we are human. There are many (perhaps too many) subcategories and with each addition the risk increases marginalization. We debate/discuss the IDs that exist and continue create alphabet soup of new IDs because we don’t like how one sounds or means (I am guilty of this myself). We have become our worst enemies :slapfight:. I’ll be a bit of devil’s advocate. :grindevil:

Since there is no clean, concise way to define butch/femme (lines have become so blurred-maybe meaningless) why do we continue to use them?
What exactly is a Butch or Femme? A definition that can be universally applied with little personal preferences?
If lesbian is woman who is sexually attracted to other women - Is a FTM a lesbian? Is a Trans a lesbian?
Can being inclusive really exist without some layer of discrimination? I do not mean in a extreme hate context? But if we claim inclusive what does that mean?
If we have ‘spaces’ is that not a layer of discrimination? Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe you can claim inclusivity without excluding somewhere/someone unintentionally or intentionally. But I do believe in ‘spaces’ and they should be supported.
EX:
Main Group of Meteorologist.
Sub-Group A: Common strait: Building miniature structures out of match sticks.
Sub-Group B: Common Strait: Dress in Gothic.
Sub-Group C: Common Strait: Fascination with tall people.
Yes odd example - I am just picking random straits that pop into my mind ;).

If I relate to only one group. I can be curious, maybe fulfil my curiosity and ask questions from the other 2. Interact etc, but must I include them in a space I made for the group I relate to?

The real issue is how or who defines that space to ensure it does not border towards hate. That is not as easy as one can imagine - so we often prefer to think of ways to be more inclusive.
I am not asking for proof of support or anything. I posing these questions as food for thought :thinking:, because the less we can define things properly it is unlikely we can come together. I may not agree with you on some or many points, but how you behave towards someone is the cornerstone for me on the likelihood of the chance to move forward.

The irony is for most people; the more things change the more they stay same.