I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

I agree with you 100% Martina.

I also never made any judgements whatsoever on anyone's personal relationships or desires. I haven't seen anyone doing that at all.

What do I like about FTMS- I like and admire FTMS that are comfortable in their skin and those that are feminists and understand and fight for women as equals.

Let me make something perfectly clear:

(and Martina, this is not specifically for you but rather a general note because I don't want there to be any doubt about the note I left earlier in this thread)

I am *not* saying that we shouldn't pick apart desire. I think it's healthy to do that and I think it helps us evolve as a community toward something a little less binary and patriarchal to something more "us".

What I am saying is that there is a way to dismantle desire humanely and with sensitivity to the fact that desire and kink often intersect with -isms.

I get very irritated when adults try to tell other adults that finding something sexy or hot within the confines of their private relationships is wrong.
Why? Because I don't think we have the right to do that. And honestly? I don't want another adult who I am not having sex with telling me that my kink is bad or wrong or blah blah blah.

Because who are you at that point? Who are you to think that you know better for me what I want than I do?

Now, and this where I go back to all I said earlier, we all need to be dismantling our desires on a personal level AND on a community level.

I was on the phone with Snowy earlier and we were talking about kink and how the intersections of kink often have overtones of sexism, ageim ,racism, classism, and lots of other.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea that age play almost exclusively focuses on having a giggling "younger" baby girl or a good "little" boy. Where are the folks asking for a hot older Femme or a "Grandpa"-type Butch? Does that mean that I view all age play as ageist? No.
I think people's desires are dictated internally and that is, quite frankly, none of my damn business. Or yours.
Where it becomes the business of all of us is if a dynamic is continuously being upheld as the "standard for awesome", especially if it is deeply rooted in the very -isms that we don't want replayed over and over on this site.

I do think, however, that when we discuss things like the above it is reasonable to say to one another "Have you ever considered why age play focuses on younger individuals?" without doing that whole "Well, if you were doing it right, you'd be doing x, y, or z."

I felt earlier when reading this thread that we were going down that road of "anyone who participates in this is X, Y, Z-label because OBVIOUSLY they haven't thought about the ramifications for Feminism, sexism, etc."
I don't want that.
I don't want us to be so quick to judge rather than discuss.

I think that some of you brought up some very good points about rewriting history so that sexist notions of what a "wife" looks like are white-washed so that the dirty business of disempowerment doesn't bump up against anyone's kink.
Thing is, I think it's possible that people are willing to take that role out and play with it in their personal lives in a way that makes them feel empowered. That's a win for Feminism, imo.


P.S. I don't do drive-by' in rep messages so if you want to converse with me then you need to use this thread, a private message, Facebook, my phone #, my email, etc.

Ok, Snowy just made me have a lightbulb moment.

So, I called Snowy and said, "What am I missing here? How is this not about desire?"

The answer is that it IS about desire until it's not.

I read back a little further in this thread and see something here that happens a lot on the Planet (and it online spaces in general).

When we start out talking about desire (and this thread in it's baby-state IS about desire "What attracts you..."), we often fall into this pattern of talking about markers.

Markers like what makes a Femme or a Butch or a Transperson attractive to us.

"...holding doors", "...pulling out chairs", "...driving the flirtation"

Those markers, and the conversation around them, often ends up being a grunt-fest of who can out-Femme, out-Butch, or out-Trans the next person. Because let's face it, there are a lot of single folks up in these threads talking about their desires. It plays out like a dating thread sometimes.

When we do that, I think some of us start holding up those (unexamined) markers as what I like to call "the apex of dick mountain". It's very Patriarchal.

It's the kind of stuff that implies that Femmes don't hold doors open for their partners or that "true" or "real" or "old school" Butches do x, y, z.
That stuff needs to be examined. Thoughtfully and dynamically.

I think it's ok to say and want "the person I'm interested in to hold a door open for me". Where we get into that unexamined area is when we lock up on "Transmen hold doors open".
Because people are not absolutes.
Neither are genders.
And certainly not desires.

The lightbulb moment for me is that all of this might be rooted in desire but that when it bumps up against the cadre of -ims, it is no longer about desire but about that ingrained crap we've been fed as women and men.
That may not change what we want from the people we desire but we damn well better understand why.

I have more but am still processing.

Thanks for letting me blather.

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

julie!

I appreciate you!

I am trying to think about how my real-time interactions have gone down when this type of conversation comes up.

Like, I look at Snowy and Grant and can see such an affection there. Such love for one another. And, like, I could imagine them all cozy in their home and Grant doing what Grant does and Snowy doing what she does. The idealism I have about Snowy and Grant is that they have a very thoughtful relationship so if Snowy busted up in here one day and said something like, "I'm getting all June Clever today and wearing my apron and heels" it might be about role-playing, sexytime, etc. for her.
If Grant came up behind her and posted something like, "Lookit my little woman in the kitchen where she belongs!"...well, first I would probably bust out laughing at the adorableness of it all and then I would be absolutely comfortable knowing that Grant is playing with Snowy in a way that is true and comfortable for them.
Consensual.

I think a lot of this is coming down to consent for me. Like, I think you and Brutal get to consent to any kind of dynamic you want with one another and I celebrate the fact that you both have found each other in a way that feels fufilling and right.

I think I am orbiting around how it can feel nonconsensual and disempowering when people say things that feel like "Femmes belong in the kitchen" or "Im in the kitchen because its my place" or "Transmen know how to open doors".

Those are, of course, super black and white examples but I think about how Jack and I have the kind of dynamic that means I do all of the cooking and she does all of the yard stuff and vehicle maintenane. That isn't because we subcribe to the patriarchal bullcrap, but more about what we enjoy as human beings. Maybe I like to cook because I was brought up seeing women valued more if they could roll out a good bundt cake. Maybe Jack likes to do the yard because she saw thought as a child that it was feminizing to have to cook and thus, did what she thought her Daddy would have done (fix the yard and cars).
Those are the kinds of things we've had to examine because again, those markers we are given as children (or that we accept as children) come from jacked up idealism.
Doesn't mean I'm going to quit enjoying cooking because it might be seen as a patriarchal design, just means that I have awareness that I might have made different choices about what I enjoy had I been given a different playing field as a child. (and edited to add that I wanted to be clear I am not at all implying this is what I think of you or that you havent thought about anything, just talking about me!)

I so wholeheartedly agree with you about sloppy language here. I see that happening a lot with people who mean no harm but who may not have thought about where it all comes from. We're all in different places and at different levels of evolution around our stuff so I can accept that we'll have those moments as long as we're all open to learning from them.

I think when you say "It makes me feel really good to cook for my guy", there's not a damn thing wrong with that. I think if we caught our community moving toward the idea of "June Clever is who my Femme needs to be", then we need to be asking ourselves why our Femme isn't fine the way she is. I've had to do a lot of dismantling around that myself after coming out as Femme on the Dash all those years ago and thinking that all Femmes wore glitter, heels, and full makeup when vacuuming the house!! LOL.

I also think that there is a certain level of idealism around the June Clever stuff that can be independant of "the 50s were the best time ever!!". I was telling Snowy that I like to hold up the Huxtables (a family of Color where the wife, Claire, was a powerful attorney and ran her family with dignity and grace) or The Conners from Roseanne (class issues!) and say "Why do we look at the Clevers as the cornerstone of family when we have other examples?".
I think some of it comes down to privilege (or has for me anyway) and also some of it is just flat-out idealism.
I thought the Huxtables were the baddest ass family around when I grew up watching them but they were not as sanitized as the Clever show. The Huxtables dealt with issues like death, teenage pregnancy, drugs, etc. that felt very real to me. I know the Clever show was in a different time but I almost wonder if some of the Ga-Ga around it is escapist (here comes the kink again!).

I'm not Medusa- obviously! :) - but I do have a response to this.

From what I saw, I think what got some feathers ruffled is not the lifestyle and dynamic of your relationship, but rather that that type of lifestyle/dynamic was referred to (by others? - frankly I don't remember the phrase you used) as "50's lifestyle" or "good ole days" -- eras which include a lot of really offensive stuff. As I said in an earlier post, I get what you meant, but I think what you're really saying is you live a representational segment of another time (i.e. traditional binary gender roles), not a lifestyle that represents that whole time period. It's easier just to say "the 50's",but that can be a misrepresentation of what you really meant.

I'm not condoning people jumping all over your ass for it, I do think there is a better way to have a discussion, with clearer language.

Edited to add: I don't think anyone has the right to define for anyone else the dynamic of their relationship,or make judgments on it, regardless of how "wrong" they think it is. To each their own. I also agree that blanket statements suck, and ideals and values and descriptions should never be applied across the board to any group, as others have stated, i.e. "a real man does x, a real femme does y."

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

This is the Trans zone on a Feminist website.

Some Transmen have lived as Lesbians. Some Lesbians date Transmen.

Many of the Tranmen here are interested in teasing apart their lives as men and the intersections of Feminist principles with where they have come from and where they are going. Some Transmen are Feminists.

We're interconnected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "reading posts about Lesbians" but posts about women and the oppression of women are not the same as posts about Lesbians.

Ok, I'll bite - which post(s) are you referring to?

-- Why not? --

these two quotes should be in the minds and hearts of every person in the universe. there would be a lot less of so many hurtful things said and thought.

I don't want us to be so quick to judge rather than discuss. -- Medusa

Because people are not absolutes. -- Medusa

Yes and some more hell yes. I agree.

I think anytime anyone trys to say that all of anything is the way to go, there is a huge problem. And hearing things like....a femme should be the cooker in the family...always. Or, my butch better change my oil or he's/she's not my butch, or even A butch, is beyond ignorant.


In threads like this, when sentiments such as those above are expressed I feel like clawing my eyes out cause it makes me ashamed that some of what floats my boat, will be lumped into THAT sort of thinking.

I agree with you that perhaps the problem lies in the way things said, AND the way things are called out. When something as silly as all femmes fluff pillows is said, instead of jumping in with the assumtion that EVERYONE who drops their knickers over this sort of "kink" (gah) feels the same way, maybe we can be more careful in the language we choose to call that out.

I think for me, it's the lazyness in thought and language IN GENERAL that tweeks my nose.

I shouldn't generalize when talking about me anymore than those calling something out should generalize about what's being called out.

I mean really??? Who's fucking business is it what individuals do in their own home??? Why does there need to be judgement. Frankly, anybody who can own there own selfs, without trying to beat their ideas into others heads as the only right way to be.....those are the people that drop my knickers.


This is a general plea....can we all try to be more specific and me based when talking about our yummies. PLEASE.


Now off to mull on lazy language.


I appreciate you too. Especially right now cause I'm WAY over excited about the reunion and you make that happen. I'll be over it tomorrow hopefully and will be back to my normally cranky self.

julie


PS....fully admiting that I may have been sloppy and lazy in my language in this post. I have a major headache coming on. If so, I'll re-explain if needed.

Really??? To me this is one big fucked up family. Everybody posts everywhere.


I think we should be more careful if we are.....visiting places that don't belong to us specifically. But I am gonna end up posting all over the place cause I'm pushy like that.

j

With this, as a transman, i have to say...i agree with the sentiment. I understand this because.. it kind of feels like a violation of what should be
considered a safe space for transmen to share themselves without feeling picked apart by others that do not necessarily agree with how we feel or what we need or what we desire.
I also, understand that we are all sharing the same space and i have,myself, violated butch or femme spaces. I am not saying i feel victimized but, maybe there is a better space for certain posts or threads.

This too, i agree with. I must say, however, personally, as a transman, i never identified as a lesbian because to me that felt like "girl" being labeled or forced to identify as a "girl" which was forced on me enough throughout my personal evolution. Thank God I had my boundaries and my limits though. So, i am personally offended by being called girl or lesbian just because i am who i am. And i had to fight for that as a child growing up...and then later in my life.
There is no need for an apology from anyone. It is just how i feel personally.
I am sure that not all Transmen feel the way i do. So, to each his own really.
Additionally, i do NOT think of the words "girl or lesbian" in a derogatory or demeaning way.
I love women. Most of them anyway.

I have been told by partners and women who know me well that i am more of a feminists than they are. The oppression of women is unacceptable...Oppression of anyone is acceptable really.
Unless, those people have done something
to harm others or they continue to be harmful to society at large....

I am one that needs to be careful about what and how i write here. I do not
write as well as i used to. So, i know that i have offended people here. I don't mean to.

Dmw- Did you read me as saying that you, DMW, are a girl or a lesbian?

I too can see where Guy was coming from. Maybe just not worded like that. For me, because I do get that this site, as a whole, is a space for ALL folks of the queer/gay/feminist/trans way of life.

Kinda like having a subdivision among a city. Each having their own "subdivision" to go to when wanting to be around folks who are even more like them than in general.

As much as I know society (if society would allow me the pleasure of being male, which it doesn't) could and would label me a "straight male" once I am able to fully transition, I don't think I could ever see myself or feel like a straight/heterosexual male. Reason being is because I have walked in the shoes of being female. Not just female bodied but female mind too because I was sort of a late bloomer. Lol. I didn't know or understand about transitioning, FTMs, hormone therapy, surgeries, etc. until a few years back. I honestly and truly believed I was just fucked up inside when it came to being okay with myself. Like wires got crossed when I was being born.

So for years I walked as a female. Whether by choice or just plain cause I had no choice, I did it. Now I find myself sometimes being "overly male" to make up for all the years I had to be female. Yes, that falls back to societial teachings put upon me as a child. I work on it daily.

I guess the reason I just verbally spilled all the above is to simply say I have no issues with female ided butches coming into my "subdivision" to talk nor do I have an issue going into their "subdivision" (they might though! Lol). Because I feel like even though I am FTM, I belong in some sense because I have walked that journey. I know what its like on both sides of the aisle. Only time I feel intrusion is if I get told that the way I choose to live my life with my wife is wrong because it perpetuates isms and oppressions. Really? I know history. Hell my wife has a degree in history so what I don't know, she does. Lol. I just want to live our life as we both want to and others live their life as they see fit. That's all.

Anyway, I've blabbered enough I think and will finish this now because there is some fucking idiot trucker standing over my shoulder wanting to know what kinda book am I writing. He's even trying to read this!


Totally Rude Truckers Out There,
Brute.

P.S. If I don't make much sense please excuse me. I'm in middle of a truck stop with folks walking all around me and one really REALLY nosey driver who thinks it's okay to read folks' private shit. So if you need clarification, will give it soon as I can. :)

Total and complete derail alert.


LOL!! Tell him you are writing an article about penis transplant. Does he have one to donate. You even accept the small ones.


God!!

He'll need a penis transplant if he touches my laptop again.


End Of Derail,
Brute.

No, not at all. That is why i said that there was no need for an apology from anyone. I am and was not offended by what you said. I guess to clarify...i was speaking in general,personal, terms. I don't feel that you were calling me girl or lesbian. I am trying to point out my personal feelings regarding being a transman. I never identified with being lesbian is all that i was, and am, trying to explain or convey.

Brutal - I liked what you just said about having walked and lived as a Female.

I think that was the crux of what makes us acccessible to each other is that we all honor what we have as a shared context. While some folks on this site don't identify as female on any level, I would say that 100% of the folks on this site were either born as female, raised as a female, or have lived as females at some point in their lives.

That is one of the pieces of glue that makes us recognizeable to each other.

I appreciate that you are willing to share that part of yourself rather than shut it down or act like it never existed. It goes a long, LONG way in helping us understand one another!!

Wanted to edit this to my last post but will just add here:

I also think what you said about this site being different neighborhoods of a sort is valuable. The different threads we have here go a long way in helping contain conversations and act like neighborhoods in a city where we have all agreed to live (by posting here).

I do think that we can sometimes hear the next block over having a party and want to join in. Especially if they are playing good music or arguing about who's cat craps on who's lawn. I do think there is a reason that a lot of Transmen might choose to hang out on this site versus go to a site that is exclusively for Transmen and it might go back to that whole shared context thing. Because not only have some Transmen lived as women, but some of them (and a great many of them on this site) have lived as Butches.

The thing I have seen in threads over the years is that if Femmes are having a thread about something specific to them, let's say Femme invisibility, people of other genders are pretty good about policing themselves out of the discussion. I do think that folks of other genders would chime in if one of the Femmes posted something like "I feel more invisible around Transmen and here's why". A Transman might read that and think "oh bull shit" or they might want to engage simply for understanding.

I hope you guys don't feel intruded upon. This conversation has been so valuable and has really helped a lot of folks (me included!) and further than that, I hope that it doesnt feel like an intrusion when folks call out problematic stuff but rather we can look at is as an opportunity to learn from one another.

No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all. :)

QueenofSmirks, I think you get the gist of what some people find troubling, but I would like to know where anyone jumped anyone's ass and where the language is not clear- because I am certainly not seeing it.

The discussion about the good ole June Cleaver days starts on page 8. I have re-read from that point and see nothing.

I see people being very clear about what they object to and very clear that they are not attacking anyone or their relationship. This is where my big frustration lies- when people do make a very big effort to be specific and clear and we are told we are not and we are told we are attacking people.

Brutal, I bolded part of your post. Where specifically has that happened?

Medusa, not sure if your p.s was aimed at me, but I repped you instead of posting because your Moderating post said this discussion should be moved to another thread, so I didn't think I was allowed to comment. Now it appears the discussion is continuing.

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***

I feel the same way. LOL!! It would be funny if it were not so NOT funny!!!


:confused:

Would like to add one more thing if I may.

It can get hard for me sometimes because if I go to a place/subdivision where it is exclusively about femmes (as example) then I will post about femmes and leave out the rest of the rainbow, so to speak. If someone gets all pissy because I left out a group then I see that as being on them. Not me. I am visiting a "subdivision" that is all about the femmes. If I visit a "subdivision" that's about the FTMs then I'll post about them and usually them alone. Same goes for female ided butches, etc.

I live in a world that is too politically correct for my taste so when I come here, I try to make damn sure that where I'm posting (the subdivision) is exclusive to that part of the rainbow. If I try to include everyone, I'll spend all damn day typing and more inlikely forget someone. Lol. While I know and understand exclusion, I don't see it as such considering it's about a specific group and not the rainbow as a whole.

So Nomad, thank you for your post because it brought that thought up and wanted to share it. Thanks.


Food For Thought,
Brute.

I don't think I have read a post before that has touched me so.

Brutal, that you own that part of yourself, the female experience (whatever that means to and for you) and chose not to erase it, in spite of the pain that it has caused you in your life; says so much about you as a person.

I admire you greatly for this.

I'll have to go back through the thread when I'm not doing this by cell phone to respond to the first part of your first paragraph above re: ass jumping, (which could be mistaken for a new fetish, if taken out of context).

As to the second part of that paragraph - about not being clear - I referenced it in 2 different posts. I talked about using phrases like "the good ole days" and "50's housewife" to describe a relationship that consists of traditional binary gender roles, which is probably only representative of about 2% of what that time period was all about, which would be a misrepresentation of the relationship being described. So, if you missed that, I'll try to find the links to those specific posts.

As to the last paragraph - I disagree. I see some people were very clear about not attacking anyone, and some not so clear. So, if you decided to take my statement and apply it to everyone including yourself, i.e. your use of "we", then I can see why we disagree. However, I did see some rather snarky responses and comments from people who were NOT clear, and mistook the INTENTION of some people's use of certain phrases and terms, and decided to make all sorts of assumptions and run with it. So, with that said, I stand behind my post.

me in blue

and thanks for sharing your thoughts. i appreciate your clearer version of my own scattered and somewhat whiny post

QueenofSmirks, thank you for your reply! I still don't quite understand, but don't want you to have to use up your time to dredge through stuff unless you want to. I think the part of not being specific was not about people who had objections.

Nomad, I have no idea why you feel the need to walk on eggshells. People do not get offended at every little thing. People have been quite specific about what is bothering them.

Brutal and Femmsational, I have never once thought of you as a couple that follow any sort of stereotypical patterns at all. I think you are quite unique and have no idea why you would think I thought you were anything but that.

The whole lesbian thing... wow... ok then. Just in case anyone is indirectly referring to my post about lesbian feminist household- that was me saying that even lesbian households may have some dynamics and/or division of labor that may look stereotypical- as in me taking out the garbage and my femme partner cooking. We just don't aspire to some past era to do so.

The next time I hear mention of June Clever I will just keep my mouth shut and go read Snow's thread.

OY!
 

Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.

Yet, if it's felt by more than one person, and expressed respectfully...should we maybe look at that? Tease that out a bit??

Curious really.

Thoughts
 

No one is instilling fear into the thread, what has happened is people have stated different views. It's common for people to start claiming that "they are afraid" I am not saying Nomad was saying that, but her words can be and obviously have been interpreted that way.


I've lost count of how many people have referred to me as scary or have gone to say how afraid they are to post because I posted. I wanted to clarify why I said what I said.

Just wanted to clarify my post earlier since I wrote it in a hurry as I was on my way out the door.

I agree that we should all be able to go into any thread or forum on this site. However, I think, if you go into a thread that does not pertain to your lifestyle, then you need to keep an open mind while reading, and be respectful of that lifestyle while posting.

Thoughts
 

That same expectation should pertain to people posting in that particular lifestyle thread.


It's really easy to state what one's desires/needs/wants are without having to shit down the necks of others.


I believe that is what is being discussed here, I certainly do not have a say so on what rocks anyone's relationship boat, I don't like it when folks do it to me so I am pretty adamant about respecting other's likes/desires/needs/wants/dynamics, matter of fact I say RAWK ON!!!

this is completely fair. thank you for pointing it out Lady Snow. i did not intend to create negative or ugly circumstances. my tone was not inflammatory in my head. (is it ever?) :)

you've given me the chance to consider my state of mind when i made that post. i wasnt feeling singled out or disagreed with or attacked. i did not mean to indicate that anyone was being unfair with regard to something i'd said, done, expressed or otherwise. i was actually worried about not being clear or thought of as disrespectful if i wasnt all inclusive because i sometimes feel that that's the way the threads are leaning.

i should have said that i am nervous, rather than afraid --- nervous to be seen as being excluding or othering if i dont include everyone in the things i appreciate about FtMs. i have felt recently that there are those who mistake things like "I like ABC about unicorns" as an indication that the poster didnt think or acknowledge that zebras and tortoises also did ABC. if the forum is dedicated to unicorns, i comment about unicorns. it doesnt mean that i dont also love zebras.

thank you for rattling my cage. i like it when people do that. and for the record, i've never been afraid of You. inspired, yes. unsettled, yes. challenged, yes. treated fairly, yes. verklempt, yes. hot and bothered, yes. but never even once afraid. :bouquet: