Thank you for your post Bit, and I appreciate your experiences shared and your points about how some male identified butches need to change pronoun usage in different contexts to negotiate comfortably and safely in a hostile world.
Just a quick note about something you said which I've enlarged in your quote above. You mentioned " ..for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity"...
and I wanted to mention that for me as a woman, my butchness is part and parcel of my womanness.

It is not separate from that of which it is part, nor is it in opposition to itself. (I realize that you may have been speaking here not of butch women but of transgender or two-spirit butches ? but thought I'd use the opportunity to express something about my experience as a woman.)

What IS in opposition to my butch womanness is a social construct that denies the naturalness and authenticity of my very existence as a woman. And yet here I am. Here we all are. Perfectly natural women. I look forward to the day when all women are accepted as they are and that butch women are not neutered by the language used to describe us.

(Bit I know I veered wildly from your post and hope you don't mind me using it as a jumping off point to share my reflections).
:)

Here's what I don't get.... we have a pronoun spot now. People wanted it. People got it. But, most butches do not use it. Why?

I think there could be lots of reasons:

1) They are unsure which pronoun matches them the best.

2) They feel that "she" should be the default and so it is insulting to even have the pronoun space there (Toughy's always makes me smile!)

3) People worry that others will judge them/make assumptions about them, based on their pronoun choice.

4) Other reasons

The reality is that some butches prefer he, some she, some hy, some shi, and some zie. I don't think that we have any other choice than to work within that reality.

I say, write it in the space, or take what you get. It is not fair to get upset if someone calls you by the wrong pronoun when we all have a very easy and visible way to let everyone know what they prefer. I feel that it is almost unfair to expect others to have to work within a guessing game. If it is important to you, write it in.

Be proud of your pronoun!

Disclaimer: I went against my usual rule of never posting prior to reading a whole thread first, so I hope this still fits in with the current "groove" of the thread! I haven't read past the above quoted post. This has been in my head for a long time, and seeing Arwen's post triggered these thoughts.

Not at all; thank you for mentioning that. Sometimes it's hard to know whether someone is building on previous thoughts or disagreeing, so I always appreciate when someone tells me which it is!

You said: "and I wanted to mention that for me as a woman, my butchness is part and parcel of my womanness.

"It is not separate from that of which it is part, nor is it in opposition to itself."

Gryph has never mentioned anything like this to me, so I don't know if he would share this viewpoint with you or not; he very well might. And yes, he does identify as a Two Spirit, although I have known others who said they were "both female and male" who simply identified as Butches.

This sounds fine, but that's not the way it works. Often the DEFAULT is male pronouns. Some people's default is "she," but on the previous site anyway, that was much less common. So that's the situation. It's not sometimes -- randomly someone gets called by the wrong pronoun.

I had to read this twice and then walk away and think about it before I had even a glimmer what you're talking about.

Are you saying there are happily female-ID'd Butches who go by male pronouns only online (or whose partners refer to them by male pronouns only online)--and that these Butches are not in any way male identified?

I've not come across anything like this, so I'm mystified.

Did I totally miss your meaning?

I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity

For me, its the opposite... and especially so in the B-F community and on B-F sites. And I don't want either to be invalidated. Yes, this is true for some butches, not all. And the thread is dealing with female/woman aspects based on the short man with boobs statement.

We all just don't fit neatly into a box or have the same life's experiences. Which is rather kewl. And when I say all, I mean every butch identification that a member might have on this site.

I'm not meaning to be snide, but, it seems that every time butch gets discussed, it ends up male in some form even when the OP posed a conversation about the female/woman aspects of butch!

Hummmm, the point, right?

No, I don't believe June is happy about it.

I think what June is saying is that it is grody bullshit that we have created an environment where Female-ID'd Butches are perceived as "less Butch" than Male-ID'd Butches, and that this grody bullshit environment causes some Butches to succumb to the male pronoun even though they aren't necessarily feeling it, in order to avoid bullshit/drama/ridicule/etc.

EDIT - duh. you weren't saying that June was happy about it.

yes, I do believe you heard/read June correctly. yes, I am QUITE positive that happens.

The parts of Cyclopea's post in bold are the crux of the matter for many butch women. We are butch and women- all at the same time- the two go hand in hand. Butch does not modify woman, woman does not make us butch-lite. We are both. When we are compared to men it does feel like we are being neutered.

There is the problem of valuing male over female- the male defaults. There is also the huge gap in understanding or conceiving what woman is and can be. Butch woman is one of the myriad possibilities that broadens and stretches and trangresses what woman can be. I personally believe Femme does as well.

Butch Woman- We live it. It's not something we "identify with." She is not just a pronoun choice.

AtLast, I've seen you referred to as He a number of times on this site and it has completely baffled me every time. You are very clear that you are a She.

grody bullshit is a perfect term--i like this whole post. and i like that we're talking about it. :)

yes! and i was also making the same reference, though not as concisely, here:

once more with feeling
 

[QUOTE=BullDog;105751]The parts of Cyclopea's post in bold are the crux of the matter for many butch women. We are butch and women- all at the same time- the two go hand in hand. Butch does not modify woman, woman does not make us butch-lite. We are both. When we are compared to men it does feel like we are being neutered.

There is the problem of valuing male over female- the male defaults. There is also the huge gap in understanding or conceiving what woman is and can be. Butch woman is one of the myriad possibilities that broadens and stretches and trangresses what woman can be. I personally believe Femme does as well.

Butch Woman- We live it. It's not something we "identify with." She is not just a pronoun choice.[/QUOTE]

No, it is not about pronouns at all and runs far deeper than an identifier. It transcends far more than I ever knew it could. This says it all, Bully. Thanks for helping me find yet another voice to sing with.

You have been in the Bay Area too long. ;)

Even here, i run into butches who ID as butch and know what femme means, but otherwise are pretty oblivious to all the other gender politics we are so savvy to. For a while i was dating a lot. And i ran into a number of butches who were completely befuddled when i mentioned all this.

Back home, it's rare for a butch to male-identify. That's something associated with transitioning. i know people from back home who do, but most are people i met through the dash site. i really rarely ran into a butch who male-identified. Most people are pretty oblivious to all this.

i don't have any statistics tho. i think your sense of being in the minority may have more to do with the online community and the Bay Area butch-femme crowd. That's just my sense.

Even in the Bay Area, I am in an online group of butch women that has hundreds of members. Many of them are from the Bay Area. Most of them are not associated with either the Dash or this site that I am aware of.

Even at the Dash site- with the male defaults and all the anti-lesbian sentiment, there were 2 long term polls with hundreds of votes cast over many years. One was one butch identity- over 60% who voted said they were female. One poll was on lesbians (not just butch)- over 60% said they identified as lesbians. In fact most of the times that I looked at the polls over the years it was roughly 2/3 in each poll. And this in what was at times a very hostile environment for both groups (in some cases overlapping).

I don't believe male identified butches are in the majority in real life or online, but there is often the perception that they are. I don't say this to make male identified butches feel bad or anything. I'm a stone butch. I don't believe very many butches are. So in that instance I am in the clear minority. It's just that the perception and reality are very different when it comes to female/male or she/he and to me it's very jarring.

I appreciate you both responding to my post. I guess I must live under a rock to be surprised by this happening to AtLast? I truly am surprised that with this system in place, and knowing the sensitivities of many male and female idetified butches to pronouns, that people wouldn't take a simple minute to glance at the avatar. People make mistakes and newbies may not think things through, or people post quickly without thinking based on their internal default (that is created by the "world" that they grew up in, I think), but since we have a place for pronouns here?Come on..take a minute to look! I mean, again, I can see mistakes, but.....

Anyway, I really think that if more butches used the spot maybe people would begin to naturally look before posting.

Does anyone else see this as a potential solution to our pronoun default problem...or that it could at least decrease the problem? We can talk about being upset about the default, but here is something people can start doing to try to change the default to there no longer being a default

Last thing is that yes, it does make sense to me, AtLast, that butches might be more conscious of using the preferred pronouns of other butches because for many of us, pronouns are important. Butches have felt the sting of being called "she" or "he". So, it makes sense.

Being TG i like to be addressed as "he", but if someone makes a mistake, it really doesnt bother me...........i know what i am, so its not really important to me at all

My ONLY point, AtLast, was to answer a very clear question that was posted in the thread; "why call a Butch one thing here on the site and another at home?" I believed (and still believe) that the statement after that question, that the answer would be germane to this endless discussion, is true.

When I posted my answer, I had no clue that June meant there were people who, as betenoire said, use male pronouns just to fit in online. I mean, come ON, this is an issue which has been exposed and endlessly debated in the online butch/femme community since 2002 or before! That's EIGHT YEARS of attention brought to the fact that the male pronoun default in use at that time on that website was wrong.... and yet we're saying here that people are still today---on a completely different website which was deliberately set up to include and validate butches-as-women---using male pronouns that absolutely in no way at all fit them, trying to "go along to get along"? WTH?

It mystifies me.

Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.

Wow. No wonder there's confusion. If some of those who are female identified are giving mixed signals to the rest of us who are trying to get it right, doesn't that just perpetuate what this is about?

How can students learn if the teacher isn't teaching the truth?

It undermines everything.

I was honestly not aware of folks doing this and can't imagine the internal struggle that must be going on inside those that do, or have done, this.

There's no need to memorize anything. Membership is growing by leaps and bounds, so that is nearing an impossibility.

I love the pronoun bar for this very reason. If I address someone wrong and see that I did so from their pronoun choice, I can edit or retract that wrong identification.

You are right in that she is not a name tag. But name tags serve a purpose in helping others see you as you want to be seen. That's why we all wear them at reunions and bashes. They are a tool.

I'd like to weigh in on this whole he/she pronoun thing, because I see it a lot, and it's incredibly frustrating to me also

I was at a party a while back. There was about a 50/50 mix of male ID'd butches and female ID'd butches. One female ID'd butch in particular kept referring to the male ID'd butches as she. My personal opinion is that it kept happening because this particular FIB hadn't been around that many MIBs. We kept mentioning to this FIB about the pronoun thing. Eventually, it got resolved. But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

After the party, I was talking to one of the attendants, and she (a femme) was going on and on about how upset she was that the FIB wasn't using the proper pronoun for the male ID'd butches. And here's how she went about voicing that upset: "Why does he keep referring to X as she? I don't get it. WHY does he keep referring to all y'all as 'she'? I mean, come on. Why does he keep doing that..especially after we've said something?"

When I brought up numerous times that 'he' was a 'she', this person would just shrug it off with, "Oh yeah, he/she...whatever"

Now, I don't get that. You don't get to pick and choose people's pronouns. And One can hardly defend ThisGroup's pronoun while completely dismissing and 'whatevering' ThatGroup's pronoun. And excuses like, "That's just how I roll" or "I call all butches, he" just don't work. It's disrespectful to all butches. And honestly, I (personally) don't get the hang up here. I mean, if I 'he' a (female-ID'd) femme, she's probably going to get a little pissy and wonder why in the world I'm calling her he...like don't I have eyes? Can't I clearly see she's a she?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone tells me they're male ID'd, I see them as male, and it's not too hard to 'remember' a pronoun...not any harder than remember my step-father's pronoun. If someone tells me they're female ID'd, I see them as female, and it's not too hard to remember a damned pronoun. I will admit, I get messed up on the zie pronouns, and I'm working on that.

Separate story: I used to have a friend who would use whichever pronoun was convenient for ThatPerson's conversation. If ThatPerson was talking to say, people from work where she didn't want to be outed, she would use a male pronoun for whomever she was dating/friends/whatnot. If ThatPerson was talking in a queer circle, and ThatPerson wanted folks to know she was queer, she would switch up to a 'she' pronoun as a means to out her. There was no respect whatsoever for the actual person ThatPerson was talking about...it was all about her own comfort level, and all about what the pronoun choice did for her (whether protecting her from being outed, or outing her if in queer space). Personally, I think this is more disturbing to me, because A) it's obviously disrespectful to the butch being talked about, but B) it's also USING the disrespect for personal gain. I also find it homophobic.

I don't really know why I feel the need to share those stories, but they seem relevant to the conversation right now, and it really bugs the shit out of me. Pronouns are NOT for OTHER people to decide based on their own comfort level. You can't vehemently defend OnePerson's pronoun and demand respect for it, while completely 'whatevering' AnotherPerson's pronoun...especially when you're demanding AnotherPerson respect OnePerson.

But to then take someone's pronoun and pick and choose, so you don't get 'outed' or so you do get 'outed' is just (to me) the hilt of disrespect and laziness.

And I will bet money, if I he'd a great majority of the femmes in the world, there'd be a world of hurt coming my way. And if I were then corrected, and said something like, "Oh yeah, whatever, I refer to all femmes as he", I'd get double the hurt.

So, seriously, WTF? Because, I just don't get it. I don't get how it's any harder to remember SoAndSo's pronoun as it is to remember your mother's or father's pronoun. If you really, truly see me as male, then it's not difficult. And if you really, truly see SoAndSo as female, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Now if you're just switching them up because it's convenient for your own conversations...you're just self-centered.


Dylan

I think this post/question is very thoughtful in terms of how socially entwined our views on gender and equating male to be strong and female to being weak. I understand this as a submissive guy. Certain people equate submissive bottom as weak or less than guy. This is not true.

My entire life experience has been just this. I was born submissive. It shows up all over the way i have lived my life professionally and emotionally. I spent some years of my life denying this because of trust issues, not this issue,but have discussed it intensely in therapy. I mean i am well aware and experienced that there are butches/guys/femmes out there that see me as a freak and think i should maybe man it up. I do not prescribe to this kind of thinking.

I love it when my Ms's masculine energy takes over. It is a dynamic not an identifier. She is no less Femme to me. From my knees perspective I quietly see a difference in how this energy is recognized from this community to my offline community experiences.

Responding to Dylan, but not copying the whole thing....

I appreciate that you shared these stories, because this stuff does happen. As I posted earlier, I do check that pronoun spot on the profile bar because I do want to use the correct pronoun. I wouldn't want to be called he...tyvm...and I don't want to do that to anyone else either.

When I first joined the dash site I made friends with a butch who had hy as their designated pronoun on the profile. Okay, great. I called hym hy. When I met hys girlfriend, who also refers to hym as hy online, she called hym she. Now I'm confused. I asked the butch....what do you prefer?
Hy said "oh either way is fine." Ugh. Okay, now I'm really messed up. If I call hym she online, others will eat my head for disrespecting. If I'm talking about hym to her, do I say she? Please know that I'm truly NOT trying to be flippant here (and it's okay, cuz they're friends and we had this conversation already), but it is crazy-making for those of us who do care, do respect that, and do want to call you what you prefer to be called.

And yes, some people do ignore stated preferences...and I find that very disrespectful.

And...Dylan...as a side note, you had me totally stumped with the MIB's and FIB's for a minute....cuz I was seeing MIB and thinking "Men In Black?" :blink: Sorry.....my son's favorite movie....duh....

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.

Thanks for your post Dylan. There does seem to be a stubborn refusal by a segment of femmes that I find baffling. It certainly is not all femmes. There are plenty of femmes who partner with or date trans men and male id butches who are very supportive and use the right pronouns or ask when they don't know.

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

[QUOTE=BullDog;105933]Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

----------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

[quote=DapperButch;106099]Yes, Dapper I was aware you were empathizing. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I was saying is that it wasn't just a matter of people not glancing at the pronoun choice before posting. Even some people who are familiar with AtLast- as opposed to responding to someone in a post and not being sure of their pronoun choice or gender- have used the wrong one with her.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more of a jumping off place. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

That fact that anyones defaulting instead of asking is simply lazy (like Dylan said) and with that laziness shows a great deal of indifference to those who get the short end of the default stick...

Because to default, you have to make a choice of he or she... and in that consciously choose who to disrespect.

When people who've been in the community for some time say that they do still use default pronouns... truly it says nothing to me about the he's or she's, or their value... but it speaks to me about the person who defaults, and their internal values.

Gotcha. Thanks.

Ahhh, I misread you then. Thanks. :)

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways.

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

exactly! it's personal!
 

a zillion times yes!

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways. [/QUOTE]

Hey Gemme, actually I never noticed you use the chicken and egg thingy previously.

The chicken and egg reference (in my post) was to say perhaps that what caused a female ID'd butch to feel pressured to ID as "he" in the forum seemed more pertinent (to me) in the conversation than the idea that her doing that was somehow partially the source of "confusion" for people (about pronouns what-ever) because of some "mixed messages".

I'd assume since no one would really be aware a peep was doing that (except in this case June who knew her privately and seems to still be able to use correct pronouns etc. after the event) that such an occurrence wouldn't really have an affect on whether people can ask or know what pronouns to use etc.... in that I really don't see how it's "undermining everything" as you said either.

Also... I'm not seeing where I tried to choose "what posts do and do not elicit a response" in you (point it out if you like)... rather I simply said that that I found it interesting and relevant. Perhaps there is some misreading going on, both sides... but I don't do that, not that type of person.

And absolutely correct "criticism" is different than commentary...

Anyway, thanks for responding but I'm out on this one.

Metro

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...:veggie:

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan