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I asked this before and Katzchen answered but did not answer the question. What specifically is disturbing about this picture? I don't find it disturbing. It looks like some very groovy club people who live and circulate in a world that I am not cool or young enough to inhabit. One woman is a woman of color and the other is white. At least that is what it looks like to me. They seem to have very flat chests. That is about it. Am I a nutball? I know that often times I do not get things. I'm ok with that. That is why I ask. So what are others seeing and interpreting in the picture?
Also the caption strikes me. "Own it and let's work from there". That sounds to me like an invitation to dialogue and not a shut up. It might not be a easy conversation but it does feel to me that there is a genuine desire to talk about it. |
I live in the straight world. That is the only world that sees me. I have actually been more readily accepted in the straight world as a queer femme than I am in the gay/queer world.
I was actually part of a very large gay women's group in Delaware from it's inception, helped found it, and yet later found out that everyone all that time, 6 years, thought I just was a confused straight woman looking for friends. (They didn't "realize" I was queer until I started dating Dapper) Smh.... ETA: I am not unhappy, I love all of my friends. I do have 2 femme friends who I wish lived closer but I do have them for support. AETA: I am a white femme and recognize my invisibility does offer me security. |
Thanks Snowy. I know it gets really old and boring. But I appreciate the time to explain any of that to my spun the fuck out mind.
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Snogs The B
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Femme threads are my favourite: Femmes can break apart hard shit and do it without spite,, I really enjoy how real we can be regardless of how tough the conversations get!!!! |
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me too and although i stick to the fluff to keep myself out of trouble many times, i do love the hard subjects and conversations. i love learning and seeing through someone else's eyes. Just because we are *family* does not mean i know what it's like in someone else's shoes. Sometimes when we humble ourselves we can learn a whole lot about each other. |
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Hi again, Julie. I enlarged (via font) your question, in the above post, so it is clear to you that this is the question I will focus on, this time. This is the best answer I can give you at this time, even though I've spoken openly about the racial composition of my own family and social trials-by-fire we've endured: First: The picture, in and of itself, does not upset me. It does not disturb me that an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke vocalises her contempt for a social system that rewards and provides safety for people who are *NOT* of color. I get where she's coming from in her life experience. Second: My heart hurts for her. Third: Why do I feel pain and why does my heart hurt??? It's not simple to explain, since I am technically not a woman of color, by modern day interpretation of law governing particular indiginous tribes (the matrilineal side of my family is Cherokee). My physical appearance is anything but indiginous; although the physical appearance of my mother and her mother and all other mothers before them, are not free of the color of their skin or ethnic markers. Even to this day, my mother is ashamed of her culture and indiginous markers because in her generation of time, they were treated very poorly by a social system that prevails to this day: White Privilege (which to me, encompasses four other "P's" - Power, Privilege, Pride & Prejudice). My mother's side of the family, to this day, will do anything to assimilate into White Culture so the sting of prejudicial treatment is not felt so strongly. However, the stigma of not being White is still very much a part of my mother's life. Fourth: Much to my mother's distress, I would not give either of my son's up for adoption, nor have an abortion. I may have been brutalized and left for dead twice on both ocassions, but that's not a good reason to not care for two human beings who needed all the love I could give and provide for them. I've never regetted that the choice to keep my sons (who are Black). However, our lives have never been easy, nor comfortable, nor has White Privilege been much of a benefit to us at all. Can you imagine the daily barrage of questions, such as: Why do you look white and your sons are black? I won't mention other extremely intrusive and offensive states we've endured, because like I said in my other post, I find it that it taxes every single last nerve I have to have to keep stating my life experience as proof to how I know how it feels to be excluded, to be told that I am nothing, that I don't matter, that there is no justice for someone like me or my sons. I used to think I could help by sharing my story, so that others might see and learn how it is that White Privilege is the worst socially upheld 'sin' and how it hurts emotionally, economically and socially, to the core, for those of us who are not white. But I totally get the original authors contempt for and frustration with and lack of validation for who she is or is not seen by others. The very real existence of social inequality she is left to endure, with no help by a larger misguided social system which upholds White Privilege and the tenets that anchor this socially egregious way of feeling powerful or privileged or safe or protected or any other number of things one might believe to be a larger part of the problem that people of color face, is very real. eta: I agree wholeheartedly with The_Lady_Snow's post - the reality She experiences in life and elsewhere as a Woman of Color. Thank You for Your post, Lady_Snow. |
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Lady_Snow sorry i cut and pasted your lovely post to what seemed relevant and necessary for my response. i bolded a few lines which fit my conundrum well. i like you, don’t know where i fit on the scale of femme. i am not even certain i am one. i have been in a wrestling match with me in terms of my gender and sexuality for a decade. Every time i think i come to grips with myself, i find a new twist. i know three elements are consistent no matter how the rest of the package looks. 1. i am 100% a masochistic submissive, in every way shape and form. It is a raw requirement in my life. It is as necessary as breathing. 2. i am demisexual as it is very difficult to have a sexual relationship without all the trimmings. i need the full package right down to the love. Even under these specific rules it is very difficult for me to reach a climax. 3. i am gynesexual/romantic and a relationship with a straight male is absolutely out of the question. A transman, butch, boi, daddy what have you does not count as a straight male and so it still works for me. i can fit and be for them as easily as a femme. Since i first discovered i was queer years before Stonewall i have always struggled with the appearance of femme for myself. i hated dresses. i hated the shoes. i hated the makeup. No way was this me. i am very much attracted to these qualities though. i have had relationships with both sides, butch and femme. Yet my main relationship has been with a Domme femme. We have walked much of our lives together in one way or another. Our relationship is poly and has been since the 70’s. This is how we have managed to stay connected for so long. Back to the point, i have been torn by the myth of gender. i see gender as nothing more than a societal interpretation of a role model. You have a vagina so you should fit this reality. You have a penis so you should fit this role model. It is the way is and has been and should remain according to culture and society. Is gender more than our physical being? Is gender more a mental process? Well now that we can transition into either physical gender via surgery what really is gender? Are there only two? Some cultures have as many as ten. This boggles even my questioning mind. i have never felt particularly female. I have never felt male. i am in the body i am in and so be it. i have no wish to transition. It never even caught my attention. i am actually jealous of those who have the desire to transition and do. They have a gender home or identity. (i hate that word) So here i sit on the cusp of a gender. Female boy and many thought processes fit the feminine role. But I do not fit that role. i do not fit that masculine role either. i found comfort in fitting in what is known as Third Gender or out of alignment with either. When i look at the butch femme roles i see an image of the heterosexual normative. Is this who we are as queer women? Do i need to find my place in one of these gender roles within the queer women of the world? i do not fit these roles. i sit in a no woman’s land. i embrace the female in me and embrace the masculinity in me. i identify with some of what you say Lady_Snow. i would like to celebrate my gender but what exactly is my gender. Are some of doomed to wander aimlessly without a place to anchor. i can reason that i have a vagina and like woman i must be a lesbian. Does anyone else experience this sort of gender and sexual dimorphism? |
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I think there is a vast difference between sex and gender. There is biological sex. There is brain sex. Gender in and of itself is a social construct. It's an important distinction because identifying as gender queer, or gender fluid, or anywhere on that spectrum, is NOT the same thing as having a transsexual experience or history. In transitioning, people are aligning their bodies with their brains. Making right ( or right as possible) an often painful discrepancy between who they 'are' and what their bodies 'did'. I am not speaking for Transwomen here, but the women I know who have transitioned identify as WOMAN first and foremost. Then as lesbian or straight or bi, femme, butch, (or not at all) vegan, feminist, etc etc. It is very important for me, as an ally, to voice this distinction because it's easy for the most marginalized voices to get lost. This is an interesting article about brain sex http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rain-scan.html I appreciate your post and your presence here, and wanted to speak up about that which bothered me respectfully, which I hope I have done. In Solidarity, j. |
What a great thread!
I am really enjoying it. What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men? |
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i have done much reading on the myths of gender and the sociological construct and agree this is what gender is. Our sexuality is our mental makeup. If you look i myself identify as Third Gender. I do understand what you are saying. i have not gone to the Michigan Women's Fest in eons because they are the gender police. i am totally against their policy. Gynesexual and Gyneromantic means i relate only to females. i do not relate in either way to males. i do agree that transmen are fully male. i will stand behind that 100%. Something though inside of me allows me to go there. i cannot explain this. It is one of those mysteries of the mind and sensory nature of individuals human beings and how and what they process. i have been with fully transitioned transmen. i can't tell you or explain this in my nature. i can't say that it is something about personality. i can't say this is because of some chemical makeup. i have no idea. i can say that i have had very bad experiences with a number of straight males in my life. A number of friends have experiences as bad or worse. Many women have and see life through a different lens than i do. i do see where you are coming from and do agree transmen and transmen are every bit the gender they are before and after transitioning. i disagree with the idea of gender police. i am sorry if this somehow seems offensive as i do agree with all you have said. Though i stand with you there is something which allows me to experience a transman in a sexual nature. Perhaps it will all come out in my ongoing walks through therapy. i hope you can understand my particular quark. i mean no disrespect to transmen or transwomen. In fact i never or rarely use those terms and see everyone as the gender they state. ON sites like this i will use SYR, hym hy and so on but i do believe these separate our community rather than unite us. Though i do not believe there are only two genders i think the only people who should be called by these gender neutral terms are people who are outside of either gender or Third Gender/Gender=nul/Agender/genderqueer and so on. Anyone trans IMO should be called whatever gender they are. i have rambled enough and say this in respect to the post you so lovingly crafted. If you have any questions i am more then happy to respond and thank you sincerely, fayedoll |
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Language is not keeping up with our diversity! |
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If a Femme lesbian is attracted to woman ID Butch lesbians--is she making any commentary on whether or not a Butch woman is a BETTER kind of woman, a more VALID kind, or are those not attracted to Butch women saying they are LESSER? Not really. We are on a site for crying out loud DEVOTED to a group of people who experience pretty specific sexual attractions, no? For me, it's an energy of a certain TYPE of transman. I am attracted to transmen who usually identify as Queer, have ties with the Queer community, and who find an analogous Femme/FTM dynamic that is similar to Butch/Femme. An FTM that identifies as heterosexual is far less likely to float my boat. Not for nothing--but I have NEVER in my entire life met a straight cis man who understands me like trans men do. EVER. Do I have some logical formulaic answer to that? Not really. And I have known a number of Femmes who have similar attractions to my own--and all I have to say is that I think it's a valid form of Femme sexuality. I know it can be a slippery slope to explain and I have been accused of fetishizing and otherizing before. One thing that has occured to me, to throw out there--is WHY are Femmes even expected to justify this shit? I'm pretty sure that having "GIRL" slapped on your ass when you are born because of whatever junk you were born with gives a man a different lived experience in the world than if they had "BOY" slapped on their ass from day one. I don't know how ANYONE could deny that. What is so wrong about being drawn to men with that particular experience? As far as my trans* partners have been concerned--not a damn thing. And that's what matters to me most. I belive it's important to be respectful and careful in use of language--but I do NOT believe I have to justify my sexual attractions. Which I guess is a really long answer to your question LOL. I just say it. "My main attractions/my sexual orientation is towards transmen." And leave it at that. |
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Yes and yes!
CCB, I just figured out who you are and am so happy to see you here! Long time no see! :rrose: When I think of the Highs and Lows of visibility or labels at all, I am fine with tossing it all out the window...except for labels can be useful when trying to put in words what I might be looking for sexually. Does that make sense? Even with the label "Femme" come so many expectations of who I might or might not be...and what sort of person I might seek. Really at this point, even I am not sure. |
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When the movement began we were all one now we are LGBTPQ and so on. Each letter divides us more and more. I would love for us to all go back to being just queer. |
Sometimes this is the problem with being femme
http://image.thecheapplace.com/cache...ch-950x675.jpg |
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I told her that in my own personal opinion butches have their own thing, not masculinity, but their very own vibe that makes them just who they are. She paused at that and nodded and said she could get on board with that. I'm used to a decade of seeing things that way. so to come home to west coast woo and fashion for butches being a clean pair of jeans and a black t-shirt without any stains on it, no make up and big huge boots... I kinda felt a loss for the myriad of diversity that was london. And thus a pretty diverse understanding of what it was to be who you were. And to my suprise, what was considered bog standard girly dress fashion I was now being slapped with a qualifyier of "High Femme" - I hate qualifiers. I'm not even sure I particularly care for the term femme anymore because it's so loaded over here with expectations. I shrug at that. If that's how people see me, whatever. That's fine. But the second they start expecting me to be a particular way just because I hate flats, I love make up and wear a corset every chance I get, then I balk. And people do have expectations. So I personally just call myself a girly girl or a dolly. Maybe a skirt sometimes. I find femme becoming to loaded now to deal with. When I was in a couple, it was fine. It didn't matter. But now that I'm single... I find people project a whole lotta "that's not me!" onto that word simply because their definitions come from their experiences and many people, their experiences are limited to a particular demographic locality. Sometimes I opt for saying "women who are also boys -for lack of a better word- for me to expand on that would require discussions of concepts about their sexual preferences, sexual-self concepts, sex acts and habits." when people ask what I'm attracted to. Or if I'm in a mood to not expand, I just say "boyish-androgny with a bit of smart ass thrown in." I figure that covers it. One gal told me "oh I'm boyish. I don't like shopping." "neither do I darlin' and as you can see I'm quite feminine but I loathe it (clothes shopping)." She kinda lost whatever it was she wanted to say and wandered off. Don't qualify it hun, it will only get you into hot water with double standards of gender task expectations. just be it. You don't have to call yourself anything. I'll see you. |
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aurgh. you know people say shit like "oh ha ha ha, where's your purse?"
"oh but darlin, *you're* my purse." is how I sometimes gracefully step out of that while I silently judge the hell out the person for being a fucking moron. you know... I may be pretty large city urban in my visual presentation of femininity but 1) fucking haaaaaaaaaaaate clothes shopping but I love scavanging for junk on the beach or the shores or the Thames 2) I never ever wanted to plan my own wedding. when my mother in law and sister in law wanted to "make suggestions" and "get involved" I said "you want it? take it. Please. I don't care what you do, I'm sure it will be beautiful. just leave me to make the cake and pick my dress, that's it." I was so happy to not have to deal with "a girls dream of planning their wedding." No way, thanks, I'll go piddle about with my mates and glue weird stuff into a lump that lights up. 3) I don't carry a purse if I can help it. If I do, it better have a mail bag type strap on it. 4) I am the one saving people from bugs. 5) you can do your own house work or get a house cleaner, I don't hoover and I'm not touching your dirty clothes. 6) I have always been the person in charge of the house finances, bills, contracts, repairs etc. I call the repair people, negotiate prices, argue with the phone company, keep the files and ensure the banking is done on time. 7) I am the one that sets up camp. The vast majority of my exes have never even put up a tent before. bugger off and quit hovering. Go get firewood (that's the dead stuff on the ground, yeah? Put that fucking hatchet down before you take your ankle off) or roll in some mud or carve your name into a tree or something. 8) I've been an apprentice white water guide, I've tramped through mangrove swamps chasing monkeys and getting shat on, AND I can open a beer bottle with my teeth. so ner, big boy. :D I'm super pleasant. This is also why my exes have also been the type to roll their eyes and groan and tell me I love you babe but shut the fuck up. HAHAhahaha.... So just like any other gender, it does not dictate anything but an accent through which my body speaks. I don't know if femme really is a useful term for me anymore. I wish it was, it's part of my history and my coming out, but I find it far more restrictive in other people's points of view. And it's really hard to keep telling people I'm an elephant when everyone on this side of the atlantic thinks that means I have fur and whiskers. I don't know, I'm just having real doubts about using an ID in a way most people don't understand. there isn't much point. |
I am enjoying this thread.
I also find that there seems to be a load of expectations with the term femme. Like I can't have a sort of tomgirlie side who likes to dig in the organic garden, or I have to be in heels all the time, event though where I live, most femmie straight girls live in sandals and jeans, as I do. Like I have to keep my nails long even though they bug me when I type and so I tend to keep them shorter. And so forth. Subscribing! |
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I happen to find jeans as sexy as heels and a dress. Throw in a jigger of sassy with a beautiful smile and the skies the limit.
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Low is that i feel extremely invisible in my new town here...
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One of the reasons I enjoy being in the company of butches, and there are many, many reasons, is that I'm immediately identifiable as not-straight. I've been out to everyone I know except to one medical director I worked with who was an active rabid-church goer. People ask why we're so concerned with being out and Pride, etc. Part of it is that without that I will always be assumed to be straight.
I could be dressed head to toe in rainbow colors and all things identified as dyke/queer/butch even and I'm still read as straight. Holding a butch's hand immediately changes that. ~I wanna hold your hand.~ |
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I love a femme dressed up, as well. I like tasteful, sophisticated shoes with a bit of a heel paired with a dress. I am always open to wearing what my partner finds attractive on me. In fact, I prefer to wear something they like (assuming I like it, as well). |
As a femme, I am invisible until I am out with my Kasey.
The lows for me are the times I see family and would like to acknowledge them, but instead if I nod and smile I just come off as a middle aged straight woman trying to be pleasant. A definite low is when I am told by friend or stranger that it is "okay that you are gay"...like I asked them for their fucking approval! The highs are the times I am out with my Kasey and we are acknowledged as family by couples or another butch. Or when we are treated as just another couple by Joe Q. Public. An example would be the couples dinner every month at our Church...it is announced the Sunday before that all couples of any kind are welcome to attend. I have always felt privileged that I can take my "gayness off" should circumstances regarding my safety come up, but I also feel very guilty when I see or hear some of the shit Kasey takes from the public when they don't see me there. |
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I am sorry for my post. I saw other butches posting, so I did not consider this thread is only for femmes. I just looked at the first post and saw that it is. Sorry! |
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I was thinking of this last night while I was awake at 3am...
I see a masculine leaning woman, and I wonder if she is gay. I see a feminine leaning woman and I NEVER wonder if she is gay. Is that because I am only attracted to butches and transmen, or is it because I am conditioned to see gender in only two ways? In my head, are people EITHER male or female without shades of gray? Omg I never thought I had such a narrow view of gender. Maybe this is why the general public misses us (femmes), even if we drape ourselves in rainbows? |
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And when I see a masculine leaning woman, I assume she's gay. I just operate on, until I learn otherwise, she's gay. It makes me happy. And I reread that and realized that's what straight people do; until they learn otherwise, they assume all femmes are straight. I'm making my own head hurt. I'm never going to be perfect and do the best I can. I hope I overlook no one, but I do think we need a secret symbol of some kind that's not rainbow. Rainbow clashes with a lot of my clothes. <g> |
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Unless we are physically present with a butch, there is no way we femmes, butches or anyone else could know. :( |
I present in various ways— sometimes very femme and sometimes (like right now), not at all. One way I’m not femme at all is I like to do shit on my own and I like it that way. This may be why I don’t like super masculine butches, but rather women who are lesbians and can wear a feminine suit or even something more feminine.
To speak more candidly, I know a number of fellow femmes who feel erased, especially if they date other femmes. I think it speaks to the culture. I’m on my phone so I can’t write more. |
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i do shit on my own and i am every bit a femme. Why just today i changed my own windshield wipers! Being femme doesn’t mean you can’t do shit does it i think many butches prefer a more self sufficient femme. Of course there are those who need to be validated and gravitate before a damsel in distress, but that’s not my thing. i have dated feminine women, (i don’t know if they ID as femme) and i’ve always been a femme. i am sad that any femme feels erased in any way :( |
Thanks for the comment, Dee!
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