As the OP, I had no attachment to what was discussed in this thread, when I created it. New members complained they were having difficulty seeing the lesbians in our community. The conversation has meandered here and there, and more than likely will continue to do so. At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

Yellow Band, I created this thread, I'm not interested in posting in it at all, although I do enjoy reading it from time to time. If folks would quit asking questions of the OP—me, I wouldn't have to. I would have explained this to you via private message, but apparently you do not receive private messages.

Okay, so while Butch Voices is the topic, no off-hand remarks about leaping lesbians should be made. No unrelated banter exchanged.

I'm not necessarily asking you, Liam. I'm checking in on what I'm hearing.

For the record, once upon a time, I identified as a lesbian—I was one proud dyke, and one proud butch.

And Liam, your point is? Once I was a straight girl.....read what I wrote....I don't care, I was giving the cliff notes to the thread......

Posts come and go. People get on a topic and see certain posts that they want to reply to. Other posts sometimes get "lost" in the midst. It happens to everyone. It has happened to me more times than I can count. That's why you just keep posting, especially if you want to be heard. Eventually, those posts won't go unnoticed.



I seriously doubt that extent of dramatic action is necessary on this thread or any other. No one is out to lynch anyone, nor was I out to lynch you. It's conversation/discussion/banter. What I assume you wanted from your posts, hence your posting in the first place.

I can reassure you that no one is getting reimbursed for any expenses outside of Board work. The percentages are available to you on the P&L. But I am happy to go into further detail if needed. Any Board I have ever been on has reimbursed (fed, provided for room and board, etc for Board retreats and efforts.) There has been no additional support to Board members on the BV Board.

And, June, I know you hold no issue with me personally. I hope you know I review all receipts and hold them on file.... I am now nurturing a new set of eyes so it is more than my review and the Boards. Please know that this is a new organization... policies and procedures take time to develop, etc. The initial national conference was only 9 months after the concept was developed. The organization has come a long way... and has a lot to do still. And everyone I know involved is working hard to create an organization that has impact for the butch/stud/aggressive community.

[quote=Chazz;388547]The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak

Christie, I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone with my comments.

However....this current conversation about Butch Voices and the political, gender, community organizing, "speaking for others" and all of the other serious topics being discussed is happening in a thread entitled "Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians..." and now the conversation (as I understand it) is all about the inclusion of transpeople in a historically butch venue.

I would argue that the current conversation is the derail....and I'd like to get back to folks on the site stepping up and saying "hi, I'm a lesbian."

My description of myself is actually on point....and my light-hearted approach at the serious topic of saying....I am sick to fucking death of everyone trying to define how everyone else "should" be and what we should call ourselves and if we're femme enough or butch enough or what those terms even mean.

i define me.

You define you.

I say let anyone who claims the title butch define it for themselves.

And, just for me and I know I'm more than a little toey right now....I'm going back to my light-hearted lesbian leaping, in a thread with the title of the same name.

Thanks,
Jo, the leaping, cannon-balling, tough as nails and polka dot wearing lesbian

I, for one, am glad there is a thread where I can once again be reminded that I am a Lesbian, feminist, femme.

Thats strange. I posted, but now the post is messed up and a 'thanks' is even gone. I'll see if i can remember it:

Is there some cultural/regional/ethnic aversion to the word "lesbian" among "the deciders" of BV? Anyone have any insight on this? I rarely see terms like "aggressive lesbian" and "stud lesbian" so i am curious. Is there a cultural reason that the word lesbian is being avoided? The "masculine of center" terminology seems like a way to take the sex out of it. Who wants that?

There's the idea that goes "means are the ends, and the journey shapes the destination". I think BV won't end up where it (or it's public relations firm) thinks they are going if their processs continues like they've handled this. Working against oppression requires naming and challenging oppression. BV is acting like its found a "market" in appropriating the word butch (women who continue to be oppressed), giving the word a new definition (one that they feel comfortable with), then having their "work" be paid for by the oppressed people. That is decidedly not liberation, but it might be "intellectual property".

I love the word "lesbian" and all the danger it implies. I'm so glad BV has given us lesbians the opportunity to be seen as dangerous once again. People should go if they want, but I'd rather be fighting oppression than "branding" it. And I'd rather be having hot lesbian sex.

I am mystified about why BV would jettison the word "butch" because it's been hurled at people in a derogatory or humiliating manner. Haven't most words related to queerdom been used that way? Like dyke, faggot, lezzie, the word queer itself?

But I guess screaming, "Fucking masculine-of-center!" doesn't quite work -- so maybe they have a point...? :blink:

The more things change-the more they remain the same
 

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

Thank you. Reminders of why lesbians felt removed from the national feminist/ equal rights struggle are always a good thing. As I have thought about this thread the film If These Walls Could Talk Part 2 has come to mind a few times. Here is a description from Wiki regarding a section of that film that directly relates to this:

"1972
Linda (Michelle Williams), a young student, now shares the house with three friends, all lesbians. They face conflict with the feminist group they are part of when the other women do not want to include lesbian issues despite the fact that Linda and her friends helped to found the group and fought for free contraception on campus with their straight friends.
At a lesbian bar they have not been to before, they are surprised and disappointed to see women apparently fulfilling traditional butch and femme roles. They laugh at Amy (Chloë Sevigny), a young butch woman who is wearing a tie. Amy asks Linda to dance but she refuses while her friends are still there. The others soon leave and Linda stays behind and dances with Amy. Later, Amy gives Linda a ride home on her motorcycle and they kiss. Linda invites Amy to return the next day.
The next day Linda and the others are arguing with a woman from the feminist group when Amy arrives. Linda is embarrassed and is short with Amy who quickly leaves. Linda's friends tease her about Amy and question how they can be taken seriously as feminists if they associate with people like Amy. They cannot understand why a woman would dress like a man when they have fought so hard to escape such stereotypical roles.
Linda goes to Amy's house and apologizes. They sleep together. The next morning Linda sees a picture of Amy as a child, dressed like a boy. She asks Amy if Amy is supposed to be the man and Linda the woman. Amy says no and accuses Linda of being afraid that people will know what she is if she is seen with Amy.
Amy goes to Linda's house for dinner. Linda urges her friends to give Amy a chance but an awkward evening deteriorates when Linda's friends laugh at Amy and try to make her change her clothes. Amy leaves, upset. Linda follows her home and tells her that she was never ashamed of Amy, but only of herself. They reconcile."

If you have never seen the film, I highly recommend it. It has three parts, the above section is the second segment and one of the best filmed ( even if it is fictional) scenarios based on this divisive era.

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

Fantastic film. I can still see Chloe Sevigney's face when they try to dress her up femme.

I remember it all very well! And now, I am a "woman identified feminist butch!"

Something I must bring up is that it was those very 1970's feminist activist lesbians, that brought gender and transgender theory out of the closet! Put it in the public eye. It always amazes me how historical facts get re-written. Every transgendered person can thank a Second Wave feminist for the entire emergence of gender identification variables, political view formation, services to and for, entry of laws protecting transpeople, etc. to the very lesbian feminists that so many, refer to with nothing but ignorance about historical facts.

Of course, feminism and gender theory must progress, stretch, and become relevant to each generation- but misrepresenting or vilifying its roots isn't growth- it is simply bigotry of another kind.

Ignorance remains bliss..........

Whenever a man has said to me--and this has happened more than once--"You just want to be a man," I say, "Well, that makes two of us."

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

:olive:

Calling that common courtesy doesn't make it a neutral viewpoint. Real courtesy is mutual. Some of us in there leaping weren't disrespectful of those turning it into a platform for "butch voices" debate--no one said, "hey, wrong thread," now did they?--but at the same time when someone said anything else, it was squelched. To say that was the equivalent of interrupting a conversation about cancer to post about the Red Sox is at best hyperbole.

For the record, it had morphed into a discussion of who was getting paid or comped at this BV conference.

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

1. I'm not butch
2. I've never attended Butch Voices
3. I don't know any of the people involved
4. I don't know any of the history involved

I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

:olive:

heavy handed
 

this is not my forum....I read it since I am interested to know what people are saying 'n stuff...and sometimes I see the names of folks I stalk in here so I read it....(waves to Jo this morning)...

that said: it seems to me to be Very heavy handed, and pretty patronizing, to equate a line or two of lightness with coming into a cancer thread and talking baseball (I assume that's the red socks reference and not a fashion commentary?)...do we forget that one of the advantages of the internet is that we Do Not have to keep reading if we find, after the first few words, that what we are reading is not a good fit?...do we forget that when we are stern and do the public admonishment thing that other people, maybe some of the many folks who come and read and think and get something from this venue, may well think to themselves that they can't take the risk of posting lest they are deemed as not "enough" for the thread patrols?...

I have not said anything for a while, and not been sure If I had the 'right' to comment....this morning I feel I do...feel free to write this off to some 'oh that crazy-nina' thing...or,even better to have done, as I suggest and do myself, just stopped reading it when it became clear it was an annoyance or a derail or any other thing which didn't resonate...

Man, that Jo-babe really brings it. :)

Then we are in the same boat and, for the record, I don't use people as punching bags. I don't even use punching bags as punching bags. I simply speak my own mind, and invite you and everyone else to do the same.

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

the dodgers look good this season...

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

Hi Christie,

I appreciate you coming back in to clarify. I put my notes in purple to respond....because it just seems easier.

I'm not sure how to say this to be really clear but ....what it boils down to for me....you are absolutely welcome to say whatever you like, even when you're disagreeing with me. I'll do the same. And that's truly okay with me.

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.