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{{{{{{{{{{{Dusa}}}}}}}}}}}
Big love to you, my sister Femme, for your courage and your grace, for your generosity, and for your willingness to recognize limits and endings. Big love to you for being willing to say you are afraid, have been afraid, want to stop being afraid, have acted in spite of being afraid. Big love to you, oh Medusa of the scary name and vulnerable heart, for being you. What you are doing might hurt like all hell but you are doing what is right for you and that is okay. You're supposed to. Yes, you will mourn. Who doesn't mourn the end of a dream, especially the kind of dream that sustains us through the long lonelinesses and promises to build brighter tomorrows? Who doesn't mourn the loss of a community, however large or small, that fits us, that we wish would fit us forever? Who doesn't mourn the loss of friends? I suppose there are probably those among us who are able to be fully honest and authentic and also never have to deal with fear of confrontations... but I am not one of them; my authentic self still shies away from conflict, and so I hold you close, Dusa, close in my heart, because I recognize how hard it is to do the thing which you are doing and my heart aches for you even as it makes space for you. Be strong, sweet one, and keep faith with yourself. Remember that the strong can cry, can ask for help, can ask for support, can ask for love. It is your resolve that makes you strong, and your willingness to do what is painful but necessary. Your tears cannot make you anything less than a strong proud authentic honest Femme, doing what she knows is right. Bright Blessings, Sister. My heart to you and my tears for you, Cath |
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Hugs to you! I have found that speaking my truth, but only the truth is the way to go for me. Be kind, unemotional and only write the truth. You are an incredibly strong brave woman and you can do this! Look at all you have accomplished in the past year. You can do anything you set your mind to! |
Truth with tact and timing is what I always think about when trying to work through something... I also ask myself several questions...especially when dealing with hurt or anger...
1. Who is the truth for? 2. Will they even hear it? 3. Is the purpose of telling the "truth" (because even truth is subjective, colored by our own perceptions of what the truth may be) to harm or heal? 4. Will telling the truth change anything for the better other than make me feel justified? I have quit several groups in my life (and people) for many reasons. I seldom give a reason because I don't have to, or because I felt the ethics was not even there for them to even hear the issues. I have to admit that there are times when I have had to say, "ENOUGH" and moved on with as much self dignity as possible. I think that we perceive that we have to justify our actions or needs...and we don't...just resign and leave with your head held high and your ethics clean and clear. You go girl, and remember that you are powerful inside and that is what matters and stopping involvement is not a failure but an opportunity for growth and change. You can't keep pouring water in a full cup, it just gets messy, you have to empty it before you can refill it with another flavor. One that may be much more tasty! |
I've walked away from people with no explanation.
The thing is, speaking ones truth is important. Not "the ONLY truth" but ones truth. I will no longer let anybody write my history for me. When I speak my truth I lift the veils of silence that bad people and bad situations thrive on much the way one thrives on oxygen. By NOT speaking my truth I become party to things I don't want to be party to. I become complacent and IMHO that has a ripple effect on the Universe. Silence = Death (on the installment plan). |
Medusa, you are fierce as fuck and anyone who's met you for a minute knows it. I only wish that you could deliver your letter in person, with a hip-sway and a hair-flip (cuz you got it like that).
(Authentic-Me says: Letting go is work, sometimes daily, sometimes on the hour and not everyone is in the same *place* -spiritually/emotionally- at the same time (therefore unable to hear uncomfortable stuffs), and in the end your only obligation is that you must be able to answer to *your fine-ass self*.) |
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"I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by You I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived." To me, it appears that she is asking femmes to answer her question, and politely asking Kosmo not to speak to a question s/he could not speak to. I would not go into the Female-id'd Butch Thread and offer my opinion on how they change the way they are perceived, nor a Transfolk thread, etc. and do the same. Kosmo and I have talked, and I feel that we're good with each other about this. Kosmo's extremely respectful, and only intended to be with her/his post (which I knew). I needed to say what I did, though, not to/at Kosmo necessarily, but at the idea that anyone can answer for us. I see this happening all the time. To allow it without speaking to it just isn't in my makeup. To this: "What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't." I felt that because a butch person had been the first to answer a question that only we could answer for ourselves, it may have felt silencing to feminine people. I don't buy into a Kumbaya theory of togetherness in which we all have to stand up for one another 100% of the time so that no one's toes get stepped on. I don't wish to step on anyone, don't misread me. But if I'm always protecting someone else's toes, it's likely mine are not going to be well looked after, nor yours. And here, in this thread, I'm lookin' after mine and yours. I named a general atmosphere when I wrote the OP. It's masculine-centric all up in here. I can walk into a thread about the most inane subject and whamo! There it is. What I need now, is for butches and transmen to listen. And when they do speak, because it is welcome, is for their words to, yes, be supportive. And if I see that a problematic structure exists within those words, one maybe everyone else ain't lookin' at, I'm going to name it. It may not "feel" like my old way of supporting, but it is still a kind of love. And, Bit, I believe it is a more authentic kind of love. It is one that says, this is really what I need to hear. I want for my sisters and me to be truly seen. And I promise to return you the favor. Only then, I believe, can we know each other for the people we are, less the roles, minus the expectations. Only then, can we decide whether the support we summarily give is worth something. :stillheart: |
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First of all, being that we are Southern, we manufacture The Best Euphemisms, so you have no business letting yourself go all Virgo. Second of all, if'n it is femme love you need, you clearly came to right space. And honey, grief and heartache aside, it sounds like you have made the right decision for you. Besides, you're busier than a cat covering crap on a marble floor. You don't have time for anything that sucks your soul. I love you out-right. :heartbeat: Julie |
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I'm glad you've been able to show them what you have to offer and that what you have to offer has moved the veil of 'But she's a woman' out of the way enough to allow you that promotion. Hot damn and good for you. I also really liked your self-description. Sounds like they and Jess are all pretty lucky. |
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We've been saying this in the South for generations. Don't quote me. Quote my mama's mama's mama's mama's mama. I'm sure her name was Ida Mae. Or maybe Lena Mae. Or possibly Beulah Bernice. (We also say, "Well knock me down and steal my teeth!" but that just doesn't have the same ring.) Love, e P.S. I was equally enthralled by Isadora's words. |
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I would agree with you that Jess and "the boys" (as I refer to son/dad) are quite lucky to have me... but then that might sound conceited rather than convinced... and I left "convinced" outta the self-descriptor! :giggle: |
Medusa -
While change is difficult, I have no doubt of your ability to navigate it flawlessly. Tomorrow, I will willingly wear something pink as my lil way of supporting you. While some might find it a rather trite idea, for those who know that I abhor pink about as much as I do patchouli and Birkenstocks (ya'll can love 'em, I don't have to) and I ONLY wear pink in deference to the Sadistic Bastard's wishes, it is the biggest support I know to offer. I wish I had such wonderfully wise advice like Isadora. I could only add: Be kind to yourself. Blessings, Christie |
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Though I haven't had the privilege of sharing breathing space with you, over the years I've formed an impression of you that seems to constantly be validated and reaffirmed by those who have met you and who do know you in the flesh and blood. You ARE authentic. You ARE strong. You ARE a good girl, except when you're not. Your role in the existence of this very place provides visible evidence of your strength, fortitude, honor, courage and the vast expanse of your very soul, which reaches out to each and every one of us on a daily basis. Kids say the darndest things and my gran credited me with saying something that I have no memory of saying but I remember her and gramps making references to it from time to time. She told me we were sitting on her back porch and she and my grandfather were upset about something and he was being gruff and started to well up. He turned to go inside before "us girls" could see him cry, muttering something about not being weak. I grabbed his hand and tugged at it until he hunkered down to my level. She said I placed my hands on his cheeks, looked him right in the eye and told him that a dam that allows some water to pass through without crumbling has to be stronger than one that cannot. It just HAD to be. Okay, so it's a little kooky, but I think it's important to allow things, feelings, people to flow through and out of us. Every experience we have makes us stronger, better versions of ourselves. So this too, shall pass, and in the end, you will be stronger and better for it. Much luck and love to you, Medusa. |
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To Angie, from the other Angie :balloon: :stillheart: (who does some more of that heart stretching): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46SUhb7wyK8"]YouTube- Angie Aparo - "I'll Be There" - Live at Room 5 Lounge[/ame] |
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I just needed you to know that this spoke to me on a very very personal level. You meant it for that fine Arkansas woman, but I'm taking it for myself as well. It may end up as the leaping off point of a blog entry--it gave me that much to think about. Especially the bit bout others not being in the same *place*. Valuable words. Gold, even. Thank you. |
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And there ya have it. Neither of us could see who Blush was looking at when she expanded on that request; you assumed she was "looking around the room" at all the Femmes and asking Kosmo to be quiet; I assumed she was "looking around the room" and inviting participation not just from Kosmo, but from all the Butches and Transmen in the room--expanding her request, not limiting it. Only Blush can say what she really meant. Again, if I am the only one who read her post that way, I apologize for derailing. I hope that you can see that I was telling you, not what Kosmo feels--I don't have that right--but how the wording of your post made ME feel, and how it came across to me, a person who has been repeatedly silenced in discussions very much like this one. I also hope that you will keep it in the forefront that I appreciate what you are doing in the creation and shepherding of this conversation, and I stand beside you in your goals for it. I just want it to be very clear who is and isn't welcome to post and to answer direct questions. I fully admit that is my own issue. I. Hate. Conflict. This is NOT a "Good Girl" issue, nor any kind of socialization issue. It is because I am Empathic, which is a psychic skill; I cannot bear to watch people inflict pain on one another because *I* feel it every time. This is my issue; I own it. All I ask from you to help me stay in the conversation is clarity--which you have now given, thank you--about who is welcome to give opinions in the thread. |
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Pink scarf.... check... :danceparty: |
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It's hard for *Me* to watch what is happening in this thread. We ARE as Femme's allowed to carve out a safe space to talk about ourselves and things unique to being Femme. About being seen as more than a supporter of all things Butch. It iis not unimaginable to ask butches or trans people to not opine on how a femme should be. Opinions are welcome but within the boundaries set forth. What IS important here is that you speak for yourself. About yourself. We are all here with open arms for that. Because often we don't get to do that. I understand the empath thing. I am extremely empathic and have to work to shield myself. To not take on others feelings. That is hard work but well worth it. e told you that she and Kosmo had much conversation behind the scene and nobody had hurt feelings. I don't feel like you heard that, and I hope you'll consider it. IF Kosmo had been hurt and/or there was conflict it is up to Kosmo to speak up, work through it and maybe learn in the process. I had much trepidation about posting to you because you have said numerous times in this thread that you've been silenced a lot. I am speaking to you from both a gentle and loving place. I hope that shines through in what I am trying to say here. |
I just wanted to say a huge "Thank you" to everyone who offered support to me yesterday and today (pink socks!). I felt a tremendous rush of love and courage and have just sent my resignation letter.
I rewrote it several times so that I could check myself for anger, projection, and gross stuff and I feel like, with the love and support and suggestions from folks here, that I sent a resignation that is truthful, authentic, from my "me" place, and healthy. I feel exponentially better. Thank you all so so so much. *exhale* :loveletter: |
My intention was to open up the conversation to butches/trans as to what THEY can do in their mindset or interactions with femmes to change how WE are perceived. All members of this community are accountable for how femmes are perceived. It will take all of us to make changes.
However, I'm certainly not seeking to be told by butches/trans what I (or femmes) can do to make myself "less invisible" or whathaveyou. I, too, consider this space femme-based. |
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The reason you feel like I didn't hear what e said about conversation with Kosmo behind the scenes is that I believe that no one has the right to speak for Kosmo which is, after all, the point here: if no one has the right to speak for us except us, then how can we turn around and claim the right to speak for anyone else? I think that there were many ways to interpret Blush's post, and I think it's clear that Kosmo interpreted it exactly the same way I did. That might be a mistake in interpretation, but answering a direct request for information is not, I think, the same as someone "invading our space" so to speak. Yes, we have the right to carve out our space... but I believe we should be willing to accept that sometimes people interpret things differently--which to me is not the same as deliberately stealing our space. In the end, none of us got it right anyway; Blush posted that she meant something different. *wry smile* Does this make sense? Can you see my point? I have no arguments with this thread being Femme space. I have no arguments with e and the way she is shepherding the convo. I appreciate what she is doing. I just needed clarity--which e provided--about who is welcome to post. Quote:
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I realize that nothing is perfect, but I just want to say that every time I read a post on this thread (and on a couple of others), I just breathe a huge sigh of relief. I'm so grateful that we can have discussions about difficult, emotional topics, and still treat each other with respect and kindness. So, to you (all) from my mushy place, THANK YOU! This kind of open, honest, thoughtful discourse is, for me, the opposite of silencing. And, it goes a long way toward providing a space for me to "be"--and hopefully, it does the same for the collective you. Thank you!!
:rose:Lynn |
I'm taking this to everyone.
I see what I feel to be some interesting things happening here from a sociological perspective. I created a thread in which we could explore the ways in which feminine people are sublimated by the overall masculine-over nature of our communities, but I also had an eye toward the way in which we permit that subjection. How we, femme people, propagate it, as it were. On one level, the conversation I've been having with Bit has been frustrating for me (not Bit, just the convo). I only meant to show that a butch person cannot and should not answer for us a question that can only be answered by us. This isn't personal, it is necessary. I saw Kosmo rewording Blush's question in such a way as to make it only answerable by femmes, and for me, this was an opportunity to speak to my point from the OP. On another level, this conversation has been an important one because of what it might have revealed, and how it allows us to engage. When we're in discussions over trans topics, I know that I hear transfolks saying, "Cispeople cannot tell us what we need to do to be understood/seen/etc. In order to be good allies, they need to listen." I know that in the female-id'd butch thread, if any other id'd individual were to make a suggestion to them about them, they'd have a great deal to say to that poster. I think they have that right. The bottom line here is that I want us to be as fiercely protective of ourselves as we have always tended to be of others. It keeps coming up that perhaps I should have shut down this conversation to certain other individuals. It is not my intention to show anyone the door. I am not going to ask anyone to stay out of this conversation. I desire participation. I love every kind of voice there is. Bring the variation. But I will speak to masculine-centrism where I see it, and to old habits when they reflect masculine-over thinking. I believe there has been masculine-over thinking evident in this thread, and not just by masculine people. It's super important to me that we all look at this, at ourselves and one another and consider this syndrome. Right now: I want to know what the rest of you are seeing. I want to know if all of you would prefer to hear the voices of everyone here (should they choose to participate), or only femme voices. A lot of good questions about how we participate in masculine-centrism were skipped over pages ago. I hope more of you will think about those questions and answer them. I've been thinking about those questions and will try to come back with some answers. |
*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...
I could be wrong though |
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I certainly don't mind hearing from the "others," but this needs to be a femme-based space. As I said before, I'm mildly curious if these conversations the femmes are having are changing behaviors or attitudes with the "others," but I'm much more curious about our experiences and lives. Bit, no worries! I re-read my post, and I wasn't clear. |
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It reminds me of a Greek Chorus following me around. In those situations, explaining may do one of 2 things: -feeds their attention black hole (which may be why you're leaving anyway) or -subject your reasons to their judgment. They feel justified in telling YOU why YOUR reasons and YOUR choices are wrong. I speak my truth when I need to. I don't speak it to satisfy others. |
I'm thinking about your questions, e, and considering my own reactions throughout the course of this thread.
Is it naive of me to think of this thread as some kind of separate, discrete space? I don't think so. Otherwise, why are there different forums and threads? Why can't I have the expectation that a discussion about femmes, for femmes, in a forum called "The Femme Zone," could be had WITH femmes? I know that others are interested in this topic and supportive of the femmes they know and love. I don't mean to devalue that when I speak honestly and say that I don't think that has anything to do with the subject of femmes speaking about the femme experience. In this context, it becomes somewhat non-sequitor. Not wrong. Not mean, silencing, or anything bad. Just not related to the discussion that I perceive we're having. Of course, my perception isn't everyone's, and clearly, there are femmes who have a completely different viewpoint. It's not just *my* discussion, and I know that. No one has ever asked me to respond to questions about being femme without also defining what that should mean to me. That, of course, leaves no room for my actual experience. It's really empowering and validating to have someone ask a question and then actually LISTEN to the answer. The validation comes from the sharing of experiences with others who can empathize because they've experienced the same things. Validation comes from just being listened to, with caring and understanding. That's my feeling about the beauty of this thread. |
While I do value the butch/trans/other input, I think that this needs to be for femmes and about femmes and by femmes.
It is not that I think a butch can not answer these questions. It is that I think femmes MUST answer them. There can be no cheating on this test...if you will. And I do view this as a test. Can I define myself in such a way that femme is not hip-joined (or other -joined) to who I am emotionally and physically attracted to? Still working on it. |
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..if we allow it..is another point! |
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I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this.. Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions? Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..:freak: |
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dazed and confused, too. |
Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.
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Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".
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Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?
I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing. When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE. |
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Wayyy more seriously. |
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