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-   -   Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians... (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1469)

Apocalipstic 07-28-2011 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deborah (Post 387157)
You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...
:(

I thought they knew each other and were interacting.

I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did.

Is she upset?

Deborah 07-28-2011 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 387167)
I thought they knew each other and were interacting.

I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did.

Is she upset?

I dont know the answer to those questions and I may have misspoken...I did go back to see if they had interacted that way with each other before....

like I said if I was wrong about what I took for dismissal then I apologize...it just struck me very wrong.....

Okay going back to minding my own business.....lalalalalalala

Apocalipstic 07-28-2011 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 387168)
I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

While I do think that organizers of events should get perks becasue of how difficult the work is, I agree that of someone is asking for donations full disclosure of what is happening with the money is the right thing to do.

Apocalipstic 07-28-2011 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deborah (Post 387171)
I don't know the answer to those questions and I may have misspoken...I did go back to see if they had interacted that way with each other before....

like I said if I was wrong about what I took for dismissal then I apologize...it just struck me very wrong.....

Okay going back to minding my own business.....lalalalalalala

Lol, so many of us know each other in real time I usually just assume the best.

My apologies to cwl! I probably need to be more careful about posting what I think in the body of a thread rather than just hitting thanks or sending a private rep note or assuming people know each other and that interactions are benign.

Apocalipstic 07-28-2011 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 387184)
While I think we can go too far in denying ourselves equity/payment for work done, and organizing work is valuable, whether it is bringing folks together, providing learning and growth opportunities, or all of the above, I am also personally invested in equality. (long sentence!)

There is a thin line for me in situations like this between entitlement (which is taking, which can also be seen as privilege) and being compensated for time. How do you (general) decide who's work is more valuable? Who's voice is more valuable? (getting back on topic!).

There is a lot going on within this conversation about Butch (all different kinds!) Voices and who's voice is getting heard, and who has been pushed so far to the back of the room, that it is barely audible.

As a Femme partnered to a female identified Butch person, who also has many friends across the Butch and male spectrum, I am personally invested that all of their voices are heard and respect is given. Beyond the financials, it is worrisome to me that it appears that once again, Butch women are expected to subjugate/sit down/be quiet/not create waves because they are somehow perceived to be less than or out dated or passe. It's also alarming to me that there is a reluctance to use the word Feminist.

I am not adverse to "new" language being added to our collective vocabulary. Cisgendered, Masculine of Center, or other descriptors people choose to identify themselves as. I think we NEED more words! But in the process, do we have to downgrade and denigrate those who claim the words and descriptors already in use because they are deemed outmoded? Isn't there room at the table for all voices in the spectrum? Shouldn't there be?

About the financials, I do agree that there should be full disclosure so that these questions are not even asked. I would be fine with volunteer planners receiving an industry wide accepted amount of per diem and mileage allowance.

As to Butch Women and Feminists, you know I agree with you 100%. The table is big and should be inclusive.

What do you think about questions of whether this is more about age than Feminism?

*Anya* 07-28-2011 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 387147)
What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.


I totally agree.

I have stated previously that I am like Rippetta Van Winkle. I went into my long-term relationship and the world was one way, I came out of it and things were quite different.

20 years ago, there were butches, femmes and androgenous women that, as a femme, appeared more butch to me than femme.

The circle of friends that my ex and I had identified as either butch or femme. Everyone identified as a female so I did not have to try to figure too much out, or worry I might make a mistake and blunder into saying something wrong.

Before you jump on me, I totally get there have always been transgendered folk throughout history.

What is different, however, is that I did not even know anyone 15-20 years ago, that took T and changed gender. I found out kind of by accident on You Tube of all things after my break-up when I typed in "butch-femme" and found so many young transmen. This was a new concept for me. No negative judgments about it, it just took a little bit to wrap my head around.

I kept looking for butch lesbians and had a much harder time finding them before I found the planet. I do still get confused about pronouns and I become fearful I will insult someone, so frequently, I check and recheck their profile and if I still do not see it, I just do not say anything, rather than make a mistake.

I appreciate the lesbian zone because then, I am fairly sure (but never 100% positive) that I can pretty much tell, that those that post are lesbians-unless of course-they identify as trans.

Heart 07-28-2011 05:12 PM

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

Kobi 07-28-2011 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart (Post 387216)
Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart



What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesnt sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldnt come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.








Slater 07-28-2011 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy (Post 387120)
I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.


If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.

OS Butch 07-28-2011 08:21 PM

This conversation stirs many things in my memories as a lesbian and butch woman.

Years ago through my employer, we had to attend Diversity Training. In the room there were signs around the room. Age, Man/Woman, Nationality, Sexual Orientation, and several others I can't remember.
The exercise was to stand under the sign in the order of importance in your life. My 1st sign I stood under was Woman. Some where around 3rd , did I stand under the sexual orientation sign, which happened to be right next to the age sign. There was a crowd under the age one and I was the only one standing at the Sexual orientation sign. The guy standing next to me said something about squeezing in to make room in the age group. I said no, thats ok, I am standing here because I am queer as a 3 dollar bill.
Not too long ago, a lesbian woman, very ignorant of the butch femme dynamic, said to me that I made a poor imitation of a man.
At a Butch Femme event, the was a stink about a POC luncheon, because it was for only for POC, not allies or significant others that were not POC.
I am not sure where all my rambling is leading, but these are the things that have popped into my head after reading the recent posts.

OSB

Slater 07-28-2011 08:53 PM

In reading the BV open letter, this, to me is the most telling line:

"Anyone knowledgeable about BUTCH Voices’ missions or initiatives can see that we have, and will continue to, work hard to include female identified, woman identified, and feminist Butches in all that we do ... "

If you are having to work that damn hard to include female-identified butches in a butch organization (and still failing pretty spectacularly, by the looks of things) then you have some huge, core, fundamental problems. Seriously, I can't even believe they could write this sentence like it's an okay thing. It clearly portrays female-identified butches as outsiders that the good folks at BV are trying so hard to include.

If they were serious about this, if they had integrity about this, after the conference they would suspend all other activities until they had this sh!t sorted out. How can anything that Butch Voices does be seen as legitimate if they are, by their own admission, struggling to include female-identified butches? They need to either suspend operations while they restructure and redistribute power or they need to change their name/focus and stop pretending to be something that they're not.

ScandalAndy 07-28-2011 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 387147)
What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart (Post 387149)
I don't think Jess was debating, I think Jess was speaking to issues related to the Butch Voices controversy that is being discussed here by lesbians.

Sheesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slater (Post 387341)
If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.




My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

OS Butch 07-28-2011 09:17 PM

Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy (Post 387373)
My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.


ScandalAndy 07-28-2011 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OS Butch (Post 387389)
Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.

sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

dykeumentary 07-28-2011 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy (Post 387391)
sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

Hey Scandalandy, if you don't really care, then why try to be "thread police"? I was the one who bought up this topic in this thread. I neither cared about the intro post nor 'directing people to it'.

It's here, we are discussing it.

Also, I am disappointed with your characterization about our discussion as a "biitch about butch voices thread". I find that language sexist and offensive. Additionally, I call-out anti-lesbian actions wherever and whenever I see it-- on the street, in a bar, anywhere. I certainly don't need to "find a thread" that you or anyone might feel is more appropriate.

It's clear that emotions are running hot on this issue. What is your motivation for being traffic cop?

dykeumentary 07-28-2011 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy (Post 387373)
My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

i "identify as such".


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