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I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did. Is she upset? |
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like I said if I was wrong about what I took for dismissal then I apologize...it just struck me very wrong..... Okay going back to minding my own business.....lalalalalalala |
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My apologies to cwl! I probably need to be more careful about posting what I think in the body of a thread rather than just hitting thanks or sending a private rep note or assuming people know each other and that interactions are benign. |
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As to Butch Women and Feminists, you know I agree with you 100%. The table is big and should be inclusive. What do you think about questions of whether this is more about age than Feminism? |
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I totally agree. I have stated previously that I am like Rippetta Van Winkle. I went into my long-term relationship and the world was one way, I came out of it and things were quite different. 20 years ago, there were butches, femmes and androgenous women that, as a femme, appeared more butch to me than femme. The circle of friends that my ex and I had identified as either butch or femme. Everyone identified as a female so I did not have to try to figure too much out, or worry I might make a mistake and blunder into saying something wrong. Before you jump on me, I totally get there have always been transgendered folk throughout history. What is different, however, is that I did not even know anyone 15-20 years ago, that took T and changed gender. I found out kind of by accident on You Tube of all things after my break-up when I typed in "butch-femme" and found so many young transmen. This was a new concept for me. No negative judgments about it, it just took a little bit to wrap my head around. I kept looking for butch lesbians and had a much harder time finding them before I found the planet. I do still get confused about pronouns and I become fearful I will insult someone, so frequently, I check and recheck their profile and if I still do not see it, I just do not say anything, rather than make a mistake. I appreciate the lesbian zone because then, I am fairly sure (but never 100% positive) that I can pretty much tell, that those that post are lesbians-unless of course-they identify as trans. |
Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.
That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder.... I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through.... Heart |
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What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard. To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all. While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish. In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism. Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me. In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesnt sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form. As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege. To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one. There may be a new world order coming but it shouldnt come at the expense of melding genders or orientations. |
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If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection. But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons. First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes. |
This conversation stirs many things in my memories as a lesbian and butch woman.
Years ago through my employer, we had to attend Diversity Training. In the room there were signs around the room. Age, Man/Woman, Nationality, Sexual Orientation, and several others I can't remember. The exercise was to stand under the sign in the order of importance in your life. My 1st sign I stood under was Woman. Some where around 3rd , did I stand under the sexual orientation sign, which happened to be right next to the age sign. There was a crowd under the age one and I was the only one standing at the Sexual orientation sign. The guy standing next to me said something about squeezing in to make room in the age group. I said no, thats ok, I am standing here because I am queer as a 3 dollar bill. Not too long ago, a lesbian woman, very ignorant of the butch femme dynamic, said to me that I made a poor imitation of a man. At a Butch Femme event, the was a stink about a POC luncheon, because it was for only for POC, not allies or significant others that were not POC. I am not sure where all my rambling is leading, but these are the things that have popped into my head after reading the recent posts. OSB |
In reading the BV open letter, this, to me is the most telling line:
"Anyone knowledgeable about BUTCH Voices’ missions or initiatives can see that we have, and will continue to, work hard to include female identified, woman identified, and feminist Butches in all that we do ... " If you are having to work that damn hard to include female-identified butches in a butch organization (and still failing pretty spectacularly, by the looks of things) then you have some huge, core, fundamental problems. Seriously, I can't even believe they could write this sentence like it's an okay thing. It clearly portrays female-identified butches as outsiders that the good folks at BV are trying so hard to include. If they were serious about this, if they had integrity about this, after the conference they would suspend all other activities until they had this sh!t sorted out. How can anything that Butch Voices does be seen as legitimate if they are, by their own admission, struggling to include female-identified butches? They need to either suspend operations while they restructure and redistribute power or they need to change their name/focus and stop pretending to be something that they're not. |
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My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one. As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was. I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it. |
Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.
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It's here, we are discussing it. Also, I am disappointed with your characterization about our discussion as a "biitch about butch voices thread". I find that language sexist and offensive. Additionally, I call-out anti-lesbian actions wherever and whenever I see it-- on the street, in a bar, anywhere. I certainly don't need to "find a thread" that you or anyone might feel is more appropriate. It's clear that emotions are running hot on this issue. What is your motivation for being traffic cop? |
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