I don't plan on going on an Olivia Cruise anytime soon. If I did it would never cross my mind that I would be turned away. If someone wants to pay for transportation to the ship and pay for my ticket I will put it to the test.

I already said I think the way Blaze was treated was rude. Blaze was part of a group of friends that included at least one FTM that was turned away. I don't think they should have been treated rudely.

I have been a lesbian for over 30 years and also I am butch. My experience DOES tell me where I am or am not welcome. Have I ever had a lesbian been rude to me? Yes. I have also have straight people be rude to me, bisexuals, transpeople, genderqueer people, etc etc. I've had many a gay male waiter be very patronizing and sexist to me at gay male owned restaurants. I could go on. Most people I encounter- whatever their gender and sexual orientation may be- are nice and treat me well.

I really don't care if people want to go on an Olivia Cruise or not. It's not on my short list.

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.

So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!

More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

I said the way Blaze and his friends were treated was wrong several times. How many times do I have to say to qualify as being outraged. I never said it was ok and I'm not defending the cruise line. The cruise line targets lesbians.

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a

Right here:

If you weren't trying to shut the evil non lesbian down - what WERE you trying to accomplish, exactly?

Anyway, because I like Medusa (and ONLY because I like Medusa) I am going to just completely ignore you now.

I have never said or implied anything even remotely close regarding the part of what you said in bold. I feel that is a huge exaggeration and has nothing to do with anything I have said. I have never said lesbians can do no wrong or that Olivia Cruises is perfect. I also haven't charged anyone with being a lesbophobe in this conversation.

I don't think ANYONE should be treated badly at their docks. Some of the communication coming from higher ups is also troubling. Then there was a statement from I believe their Vice President on another butch femme website saying something completely different. That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

I said the worst I have been treated as a butch happens on butch femme online communities and it happens over and over. I did not say 100% of people treat me that way or that it happens 100% of the time. It happens OFTEN.

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.

Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color and it feels very much the same way. Kicked out, judged harshly based on outward appearance. Forget what is on the inside and one's actions.

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.

Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

I do agree it's not the responsibility of a site owner to divulge the identities of everyone, however I don't know why someone planning a butch femme event would book a cruise on a lesbian cruise ship. If there was a cruise planned for trans people I don't think it would be appropriate for me to go as part of a butch femme party on board because I would feel I was intruding on trans people's space who were expecting to go on a cruise with other trans people. A ship is kind of different than say a hotel.

I think the Olivia Cruise line staff needs a lot of training on gender identities and issues for sure. I also understand many have connections to the lesbian community who themselves are not lesbian and do want to participate in lesbian events at times and I do think that's great. I do also support woman's only space. So how this all gets resolved is hard to say but I do think you make good points.

Thank you for the dialogue Greyson. I do always enjoy conversing with you.

Originally Posted by BullDog http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif
You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

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NO this is what you said... You made a sweeping generalization and that is fucking unfair and wrong and rude. OH and unjust!!

Sad but true, those were *your* words.

Like I said earlier any fucking time trans issues come about or are talked about the same shit happens and the whole divisive us vs them shit starts.

It's ridiculous at this point and oh so telling.

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.