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I am perfectly comfortable refusing my personal help or services to a someone with whom I have a serious ideological difference.
As a public school teacher, I am morally and legally obligated to extend my professional efforts to all of my students, regardless of their ill thought out offensive opinions. But, I will not extend myself to a student who is being disciplined for calling someone a 'dyke' or a 'nigger' the way I would extend myself to a student who was in trouble for failing a math test. I would certainly withhold my expertise from someone who wished to hire me privately. |
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On the surface what I suggested certainly does sound like the Pauls. It's not anywhere near their politics. Libertarians don't believe in Government at all. No Departments of Education, Veterans Affairs, Transportation, Commerce, Health and Human Services, Treasury (and the Federal Reserve), Agriculture, Labor, Housing and Urban Development, Energy, Homeland Security and a whole bunch of other Cabinet level jobs. What I suggested is the role of government (in this instance) is to motivate business to act right by costing them that all mighty profit. And it's not limited to discrimination. All the big oil, big agriculture (ADM, Monsanto), ________ companies get government subsidies even though they damn sure don't need them...what the fuck is that about. WalMart pays less in taxes than I pay....and yes that is true......yet has the largest class action discrimination lawsuit ever filed in this country. Why are they getting subsidies, tax deductions from the Government? Cities and States (and federal) routinely give very profitable businesses big ass tax breaks to locate plants, headquarters, etc in their city/states. Why???? And why are they getting those breaks when they are being sued for discriminatory practices? Filing a lawsuit against a multi-billion dollar business will only drain money out of the Treasury, because those businesses can pay off anyone/everyone and flood tons and tons of paperwork on the plantiff. I'm willing to bet if they had to pay ALL their taxes no exceptions, some of their practices will certainly change. It's a law, but a law attacking a different method of changing abhorrent business practices. |
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I was just trying to get at the problem in a different way, which ain't ever gonna happen. Thinking outside the box if you will. I do not believe in assimilation..........this country should not be a melting pot.......it should be a salad bowl. Our differences make us stronger..........assimilation makes us weaker. (I feel the same way about you) |
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We shouldn't have to have protected classes but until racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia are done away with, I do think that Civil Rights Acts and Equal Protection under the law is necessary and worth fighting for. Your previous post sounded to me as though you thought we would be better off without the Civil Rights Act. |
I wasn't talking 'tweek' at all............I was and am talking major overhaul of tax tax code as well as all the other government incentives that keep being given to business that does not need it at all.............
take all the incentive money given to the fossil fuel industry and give it to real green industries (and clean coal does not exist and is fossil fuel) such as solar wind....car industry that is developing non fossil fuel power...... and any of the above business that gets convicted of any type of discrimination loses that government incentive......... good convo........thanks |
The Civil Rights Act should not be a sacred cow never to be scrutinized..........it certainly has affected many protected classes both positively and negatively.......as has Affirmative Action.
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I don't believe in tax breaks for big business unless they are providing jobs or developing new industries such as your example of green industries and developing cars that run on non fossil fuels- something Obama has called for since he ran for President. Those types of new technologies are better for the environment and can also create new jobs. I don't believe social change will come about through changing the tax code, but we certainly could do better with our finances and use our resources for the betterment of society rather than lining corporate coffers and funding wars. |
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comprehensive solutions from a big picture perspective rather than a band-aid solution for each particular problem.....all of it is inter-related and needs an inter-related approach........ |
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After 4 pages, I'm sure it's been said, but a business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. That doesn't make it fun when we're the ones being refused service, but it's their right. They are the ones losing out on the sale. |
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I decided not to use Canada as an example on this one because, even though we possess many similar laws and policies as Western Europe (primarily laws referred to in this thread: not permitting business owners to refuse service), we do not have a history of extreme xenophobia to the extent of the US, Nazi Germany or Spain under Franco. That isn’t to say we haven’t had our share in the past, because we have, however, I’m not sure that it’s comparable to the US. When Nazi Germany fell, Germany took measures (and continues to take measures) to assure that it would never be easy for a group like the Nazis to come into power again. Today these measures continue: the swastika is still banned, Neo-Nazi organisations and media are illegal (and this is taken very seriously, despite that some groups still exist) and, perhaps most importantly, the German government has hate speech laws in place that make it illegal for anyone to publicly insult, defame or generally incite hatred toward any minority group. It is also illegal to refuse service on the basis of race/ethnicity. But the US government hasn’t really taken such drastic measures. Freedom of speech laws continue to protect bigots who would, given the chance, eradicate any group that does not conform to their world view. I do not understand the need to allow free speech for people who specifically incite hatred for other groups. That kind of "freedom" does not benefit society in any way whatsoever, and instead threatens social progress. In fact, I think this is a huge reason why the US is so behind when it comes to minority/human rights compared with other Western nations, and why European neo-nazi groups are able to expand online through American domains/"free speech" laws. I understand the need to protect speech, however, that speech should only extend as far as there is no desire to eradicate or discriminate against groups based on inherent, unchangeable traits (the person themselves vs. actions committed). Same goes with making it illegal to allow business owners to refuse service to protected classes, including LGBT. And I do wonder whether the strong racism/homophobia etc. in certain areas of the US are not due to the US government’s negligence on actually cracking down on all avenues of racism (or all forms of bigotry for that matter), rather than the Civil Rights Act (I think progress would have been even slower without it) as you suggest. |
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In the US we aren't perfect. BUT there are worse places to be. The right to refuse service is a helleva lot better then being stoned to death in the public square. |
Adorable, what do you mean when you say "Canada is just as bad". It's a pretty general statement.
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Canada and the US share some really abhorrent historical practices. We both had slavery. We both had abusive church run and government funded residential schools with the aim to "westernize" First Nations children. We both had internment camps for Japanese, German, and Italian Americans and Canadians during WWII. |
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laughin.....little sensitive are we suebee :mohawk: edited to add: making laws does not "insure' individual rights
that little mohawk avatar could certainly be considered racist as hell............so whose sensitivities should be legislated? I was always told that you can't legislate morality. All these protected class laws are doing is attempting to force everyone to think the 'right way' as defined by the government. The Nazis, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot were really good at doing just that. Under the current legislative landscape, I have no choice but to support protected classes while I work to change and be creative about how to effect equality for everyone. |
I am as passionate in my posts as others are sarcastic and disrespectful Toughy. I debate topics with Adorable every day on facebook. I have no worries about posting a strongly worded response to her post. I know she'll actually DEBATE it if she decides to come back. It's too bad you weren't curious about the differences between our cultures. It might give you a little food for thought.
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<shaking my head> |
Sue, can I borrow a million coins?
My post about Canada was a direct response to Ender's post. I just wanted to point out that Canada does have a history, as most countries, including the US. My extensive research for that one sentence post was a google search for "canadian atrocities" because I assumed there were some. I felt like Ender was singing 'Oh, Canada' - which is fine - but we all have our warts. The US isn't some horrible place that does horrible things to people IMO. We are one country of many, a big one with lots of money and a powerful military, and our dirty laundry gets thrown around more than others. There is a reason there isn't peace in the Middle East. Very little of that has to do with America. It has more to do with thousands of years of history that we, here, learn about in college. Families and tribes in the middle east have actually been LIVING it from the time they are born. A very different reality and hard for most of us to understand. Germany has a much longer history then we do, as do many places around the world where mass atrocities have happened at the hands of government. To try to say that WE are on par in any way seems nonsensical to me. We have done bad things as a people. We do bad things as a people. We all have. We all do. We haven't been doing it nearly as long. That isn't an excuse for bad behavior, but at the very least we all need to acknowledge our own dirt before we start throwing stones. (I didn't feel like Ender was attacking the US necessarily - but there did seem to be a little bit of Canada is better then all these places including the US where bad things have happened. That may or may not have been his point.) Native Americans in this country got fucked over long before anyone else. Same in Canada too. Indigenous people are still getting screwed in the Amazon and Africa. History repeats itself, over and over. In America we can say that we learn at the speed of light compared to other countries. Look at how far our society has come since 1787. And we built a country where you can walk four blocks and pass a synagogue, a baptist church, an adult book store, a catholic church and mosque. That to me is powerful. The right for a business to refuse service to people may not be ideal for US (you and me) who might get discriminated against. I'll take it today, argue about it tonight and hope it changes tomorrow. And unlike many places in the world I have hope that it actually might. There are pockets of ignorance. I may die at the hands of an idiot. I will not die at the hands of a government official for being queer. (I realize that some minorities may not have that security btw) Not everyone is thinking that tonight as they try to sleep with bombs flying over their homes. Just like their parents did. Their grandparents did. Their great grandparents did. Their great-great-great-great-great grandparents did. |
I agree with everything except the right of a business to discriminate. I think any business should be able to decide who they serve UNLESS it is based on discrimination of an identified group. (we've already covered who this might include/who it does include under Canadian law)
Sooooo ......I guess we're back to square one! lol BTW - my American dollar fetched me exactly ninty-five cents in Canada on Saturday. ;) |
I love Canada- great northern neighbor. however, it is not without black slavery as part of its own history and economy. In fact, Canada brought anti-slavery rules into its government in the 1830's via the British Crown, not as an independent country. Before the US, but not much before. It has a dark history concerning its native peoples as well.
Developed, industrialized nations, especially western, share many shameful practices. I feel like the important things that we need to to in order to change the effects of things like slavery and discrimination on all fronts is where we need to concentrate. Not many places in the world that don't have blood on "their" hands, historically. http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=A1ARTA0007449 Addition- As we are discussing in this thread, the "allies"- formed by the UN security counsel is bombing in Libya. Canada and Britian along with the US are involved. Yet, which of the 3 will be criticized the most about this? |
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