My feelings exactly, including the emphases. Thanks.

One report pointed to family members. We have had a relationship with the royal family of Saudi Arabia for a long time. I think he is 17th out od 112 siblings! Lots of DNA out there to use- his family banished him long ago. There are probably fingerprints available too. Possibly blood samples via medical records via the family.

I hope the science and technology behind the facial progression recognition computer imaging is eventually released or a documentary done on it.

There could actually be his DNA preserved somewhere and has been profiled and preserved quite awhile ago. In his early terrorist days, he did partake in the actual events. Our CIA and even the FBI could have had access to this data through other countries including Saudi Arabia (he killed many in his own country). This would be right around the time there was thinking about preserving DNA but before the level of testing we have today.

I bet all of this will eventually be presented. Here is a link about the family DNA samples-

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...milys-dna.html

This one is about forensic facial recognition softeware-

All identification techniques can have problems- so it appears there are several being used. The initial DNA results could have been within a few hours, but these would not be of the quality (accuracy) as the tests that take much longer. Oh, and good old dental records are in the mix!
http://www.thetruthaboutforensicscie...ama-bin-laden/

Info on Bin Laden- Bin Laden's history (pre-9/11), especially how very affluent he was. This was not a poor, uneducated, common Saudi man. He was part of the Saudi royal family. The guy did not grow up in caves! In fact, he took on the persona of the common Saudi to gain rapport with those he could train to carry out terror. He was very cunning sociopath- not a pious religious man.

He has been hunted by many countries worldwide for many years. His DNA as well as a whole host of other things from medical and dental records have been kept by intelligence agencies around the world.

This is one article that at least gives a glimpse into his history before the many attacks wordwide he had a part in.

So many folks seem to have very little knowledge about his history and only focus on 9/11. I have talked with people in real time many times that believe he was some kind of hero of the common people brought up with nothing. He received an education in elite schools and had access to billions of dollars.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-al-Qaeda.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle2011561/

To me his death is neither here nor there. Whatever threat he may have posed was created by the US itself when it chose to intervene on the side of "freedom fighters" (aka extremists) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Unfortunately these mistakes are being repeated in Libya in particular.

Instead of rejoicing over the death, maybe people should take this time to truly think about the effects of their actions, how American imperialist intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere has caused so much death and very little good whatsoever (and now Western power in general in Libya). How about learning from past mistakes instead of rejoicing over the death of a American made enemy and on the other side claiming how America is in the "right." That would evidently be asking too much.

On a side note, all this "god bless america" stuff makes me a bit queasy, really. That's so problematic I don't even know where to begin.

Probably left over from his elevation to "freedom fighter" by the US during the Soviet years.

If I could stand up and applaud this post, I would. Excellent!

Probably, yet, my guess is that most people in the US do not have much knowledge of even that time period and bin Laden! I am not very happy at times with our educational system- it has declined over the last few decades so terribly. And I feel that this contributes to some of the plain stupidity of our actions. Take a look at how our teachers are treated in the US and also credential programs here are not what they used to be as well as curriculum development. We are paying a high price for this. Believe me, Ender, I would love to sit down with younger people in the US that have not only the historical knowlwdge you and many others have, but the curiosity and sense of responsibility to pursue this knowledge. Just the internet alone puts so much more of this information in front of us. We don't need a degree to learn, just the wisdom to to do so. Although I agree with the imperial nature the US has played all over the world and it is not something I am proud of- all Western nations have contributed to very disrespectful treatment of various regions and continue to.

I know many people that have never set foot on a college campus that are avid readers of a multitude of subjects and can sit my butt right down and fill me in on things I do not know. Guess there needs to be a hunger for knowledge and to keep up with current events.

Sometimes, I do tire of the stereotypes of people in the US- more than half of us are to the left of center and do not like US imperialist ways. Many serve in our military and in our government- but at present, just don't have enough of a majority in our political institutions to get agendas moving in another direction. Hell, it has only been 2 years since "W" and "Dick"!

PS- I did see your mention on the Western powers involvement in Libya (UN). Sometimes I wonder if a strong multi-country aliance could be built among just people- and have some effect on all of these countries. An internation aliance with an understanding of how we all contribute to these insane acts against other countries. I knmow, I'm an idealist.

Apologies in advance. I normally read all the way through a thread before I post, but I'm on painkillers due to an accident, and I just don't have enough continuity of thought at this time. I confess to having merely skimmed this thread, but I wanted to post my experiences here, anyway.

I live in a Brooklyn neighbourhood notable for it's Lower Manhattan views. Every time I see my amputated skyline I still don't recognise it, even nearly 10 years later. The attacks of 9/11 changed my city in so many ways I can't begin to name them, and none of those changes were positive. I didn't personally lose anyone in those attacks, but I lost my city as I knew it, and I took it all very personally.

I've been following bin Laden's career in terrorism since early in the Clinton administration. He was responsible for a great many horrible crimes. I knew instantly that he was responsible for the attacks of 9/11 since they bore his signature style. Like many, I rolled my eyes at Bush Jr's cowboy rhetoric following the attack, ("You can run, but you can't hide." Remember?), but I actually expected him to follow through on that promise. Silly me.

I was disgusted and appalled when it became increasingly obvious over the next year that Bush had no intention of capturing Osama bin Laden, and was instead using our loss as a pretext to attack Iraq, a country that had never attacked us. Sure, Saddam Hussein was a bad guy, but he wasn't the bad guy who attacked us. That bad guy was laughing his ass off at us while we spent our resources and precious young lives chasing his sworn enemy, Saddam Hussein. And we looked like a bunch of ignorant bigots who couldn't tell one Arab from another. I saw the failure to capture bin Laden as a clear issue of criminal justice. I became increasingly horrified that my money was about to be used to wage an illegal and immoral war, so I did the only thing I could think of.

Almost a year and a half after 9/11 I put up a sign in front of my house. It was a day-counter that asked one simple question. This past Sunday night my sign read:

9 years, 232 days since 9/11/01

WHERE IS OSAMA BIN LADEN?

I changed the number on my sign every morning since the first day I put it up nearly 8 and 1/2 years ago. When I went on vacation, (or on an unexpected journey to the hospital after my recent accident), my wonderful neighbours changed the number for me. The sign had become sort of iconic in my funky artist's neighbourhood, and my neighbours were very supportive of the message.

My sign was both a vigil and a daily protest. I asked the question because no one else was asking. I counted the days because it was unconscionable to me that this criminal was at large for so long. I deliberately made the simplest sign possible because I had one important question, and I didn't want anything to distract from it. For the last 9 years and 232 days no one in the mainstream press or in the criminal Bush administration seemed to care very much about the answer.

The phone started ringing on Sunday night and it didn't stop for days. My wonderful neighbours helped me take my sign down on Monday morning. I had no idea at the time that it was about to become part of the mainstream media coverage of bin Laden. Some reporters called first, but many just showed up and knocked on my door. ALL DAY. And all day Tuesday, too. Interviews and pictures of my sign ended up in at least 6 newspapers including the NY Times, and some radio and television spots as well. I was sorely tempted to ask all those reporters where they had been for the last 9 years and 232 days, but I decided to stay on-point instead.

The recent accident that sent me to the hospital was quite serious, (18 broken bones including a shattered pelvis that needed 8 hours of surgery to rebuild), and I worked my butt off to get 'paroled' from the rehab facility on Saturday. Yay for me. DAMN, it's good to be home! I'm just so very glad that I was home in time to take my sign down on Monday morning. I think I would have chewed my arm off in frustration had I still been incarcerated in rehab. The really good thing that came out of all this is that my simple sign, with all it's cracks and peeling paint, is going to the permanent collection of the 9/11 Museum which will open in the basement of the new WTC in 2012.

(On a personal note, I have to say that I'm NOT AT ALL HAPPY to have had so many published pictures of me on crutches and wearing my hideous white plastic clamshell body brace and one unnaturally swollen thigh. Ugh.)

There's been a great deal of soul searching about what it means to rejoice over bin Laden's death. Some have been arguing that his demise makes no real difference. I wish more people would remember that this is about criminal justice. I don't celebrate in the streets when any other murderer is captured, and I have no illusions that taking one murderer off the street will end all crime. Criminal justice is about holding each person responsible for their crimes. The person who murdered 3,000 of my neighbours and changed my city forever is no longer at large. There will be other mass murderers, but this was about one man and his crimes. My question was answered. I'm happy to have been able to take down my sign.

Wow! Thank you for sharing that, Cheryl!

Thank you so much for this post. And I hope you have a speedy recovery. This is an amazing story and the part about your neighbors is great.

I feel very lucky to have such amazing neighbours. This part of NYC has recently become a popular destination, partly because of our reputation for being oddball artists likely to react creatively to events that affect us. Many of the marginal characters that give us such a strong flavor have not yet been driven out by gentrification. I so hope our new-found popularity doesn't unravel our remarkable community. Unfortunately, every time we're noted in the press, the social and economic pressure of gentrification gets ratcheted up yet another notch. Sigh.

Whoops! Derail over.

Cheryl, that was one of the best posts I've seen anywhere on the subject.

This stupid 24 hour news cycle we've adopted just exacerbates an already problematic situation. We, as a country, haven't educated the public and we don't even understand how badly it's affected our soul.

I spent a month working in the towers back in May 2001, but for the grace of God go I. I've studied the event, UBL and our reaction. I find this country's behavior lacking. We (as a country) thump Bibles but never actually read one. I spoke with a Jewish friend of mine about this yesterday and she had one of the best perspectives I've seen out here on the west coast. Full disclosure, she was born in Israel, raised in NYC and now lives in California. Her daughter lives in NYC today. She said no matter how heinous the crime, you cannot celebrate the death of another and leave your own soul intact. I think every thinking person can arrive at that same conclusion no matter their faith.

While agree Western nations in general contributed, in this case I named the US in particular because of the role that nation has played in the Middle East (and worldwide) over the last few decades. Many other Western nations ride the line of imperialism, though it is no longer as prominent in other Western nations as it is in the US (as far as military action/intervention globally is concerned). I name the US in this instance because most Western powers were outright against the war in Iraq, but on the other hand supported the invasion of Afghanistan so they certainly are not wholely innocent.

What I find different though is the way other nations presented the invasion to the general population vs. the way the American people were addressed. For the Americans it seemed a blatant ideological war (or wars), while there was, as far as I have ever read, never any large degree of popular support for the "war on terror" in nations like Germany and France despite military participation in Afghanistan. I think it was also a media issue, in that there seems to be more diversity in information and perception presented by the media in other nations than the US, where it seems the mainstream media consistantly supported the war for many years (perhaps until recently). I think a big part of the problem is that the actions of the American government and military continue to act as an "us vs. them" issue for many Americans. It should have nothing to do with "othering" other nations and cultures the way many Americans do.

With Osama Bin Laden's death it continues to be presented as an "us vs. them." I have a big issue with that. When he was killed, I'm not sure I saw the British or the Spaniards reacting the same way as the Americans did, and while the death toll was not the same in those two nations, they did suffer attacks by fundamentalists.

Yes, and I do want to make sure people understand that I'm not ignoring the role European powers in particular are playing in Libya now. I am completely against Western involvement in Libya. I am not against people attempting to liberate themselves from oppression, however, I am deeply concerned that Libya is on its way to unseating Qaddafi only to replace him with the Muslim Brotherhood (already looking like they might come into power in Egypt)...which is much, much worse. Swapping one dictator for another makes no difference, whether the deposers latch themselves onto non-extremists attempting to free themselves of a previous dictator or not.

In many respects it feels like Osama and US support for extremist "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan all over again, as though the West needs a new "demon" to fight and is in the process of creating one in Libya.

Overall, I have the same wish you do. I think that with social media like Twitter in particular it will become easier for people around the world to network and organize themselves into a coherent voice and social force more easily without the government middlemen interfering. Maybe that will make a difference, but again that may just be idealism.

As far as an international alliance, it is a pitty that Trotskyism is not as embraced as other forms of communism. I think the Trotskyist/ICL approach to creating that international community (albeit very small) fighting for the people as a whole without borders is excellent. If only it were on a larger scale.

P.S. sorry for snipping up your post :p

Ender you make some good points, but all Americans have not reacted to the death of Bin Laden in the same way. You seem to be making some pretty big generalizations there.

I thought Ender was talking about all those folks that were shown on CNN celebrating. I don't see the gross generalization other do.

Concerning celebrating the death of a mass murderer. Many folks in this country are revenge motivated and that's why they celebrated. Revenge was had........bin Laden shot in the head and dead. It's the same sort of revenge you see in the death penalty. An eye for an eye.....and we all end up blind.

I facilitate a group at the SF VA Medical Center....all veterans with 90% of them having been in combat (from Vietnam, Korea and up to today). I brought up bin Laden. Some folks might think a great cheer went up cuz we got him dead....after all this is a room full of combat warriors who wanted bin Laden dead....some had been in Afghanistan. There was silence and soft spokens words about justice. Someone even said he should have been captured and brought to trial in a US Federal Court .....not a military tribunal. S/he felt a civilian trial with a guilty verdict would in fact strengthen and show the US believes in it's Constitution and the rule of law. It really was basic police work that found him in that compound in Pakistan.

I personally don't think we can wage a war on terror with armies and drones and bombs. Terror is a tactic. To catch the leaders ordering this tactic requires good old fashioned boots on the ground police work. Police work and civilian courts brought justice with the first WTC bomber. I would expect the same thing can be repeated without killing people.

Re a previous post --

Public school education is not to blame for the ills of the world. Nor are teachers. It is harder to get credentialed than it has ever been. Coursework, testing and supervision are rigorous. Teachers are required to do a huge amount of professional development. And we are under more scrutiny and exposed to more criticism than ever before by groups who do not have a clue about what our working conditions are like.

And curriculum development? Huh? There are amazing curricula out there. The problem is right wing school boards and book publishers who pander to them. We are not the problem. We know our fields. We know our students. The people who think they know better are the problem.

Most teachers have Master's degrees. Many of us have more than one. It's not a career for idiots. And our students are not lacking in character. Young people are not the problem. Nor are the professionals, meaning fully credentialed ones, working with them. Why do people love to take potshots at teachers and young people? i do not understand why it is so gratifying. Maybe it relates to some fear. i do not know.

It is young people fighting these damned wars and dying in them, by the way. Often young people of color. They are not to be feared and despised. They are to be thanked.

Most of the people taking potshots at us would not be willing to spend an hour in my school with my students, much less dedicate their careers to working with them. And these are the kids most likely to go to the military and most likely to serve in dangerous areas.

Obama said, "anyone who questions whether the terrist mastermind didn't desrve his fate needs their head examined." Ouch! Anyone in here know agood head examiner?

Here's a GREAT article from Noam Chomsky about the killing of Bin Laden and how it broke all sorts of international laws. I just had to share it with you all.


What's really disturbing is how dangerous our relationship with Pakistan is already, and now we go and invade their country to commit murder. And our own CIA committed an act of terror by blowing up a mosque! Our government is as much of a terrorist as al Qaida. *shakes head*

Your post reminds me of many of our Generals (one is Clin Powel's past comments) speaking about war. So many of the docs I have watched that focus on our individual troops in these wars always strike me in much the same way- the deep level of humanity of those that are out there trying to bridge relationships with the people in a country we are in on an everyday basis without shooting up small villages and towns.

Sometimes I see a huge disconnect between those that have been or are in the actual conflict and we at home that have never been there. Yes, I know there are shoot 'em up soldiers, but, so many seem to see how diplomacy would just go farther in bringing positive change- earning trust of the people that are in the middle of so much chaos and that have had any number of agressors throughout time in their backyards.

I view bin Laden as a sociopathic religious zealot with the same kind of charisma as people like Hitler. One like so many that has followers that have such desperate circumstances that I know I cannot begin to understand.