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-   -   "Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization? (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365)

Darth Denkay 12-04-2009 11:34 AM
I am very happy to report that amphierotic is no longer considered a psychiatric disorder. The DSM, which is the bible of sorts for mental disease does not include it, which means at some point it was removed. Kind of like homosexuality was removed in 1973.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamkeri1 (Post 14147)


There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting.

amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary
1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual .
2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once.

It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated.

Smooches
Keri
Thanks Kosmo!

To be honest, I actually do consider myself an "official" BF researcher. When I was working on my master's degree I was fortunate enough to do research with a prof who is femme, and we did a lot of research on butch-femme - resulted in 5 published articles. So as for academic studies on B/F I keep up with what's out there (although there isn't a great deal). In any case, I am very familiar with the B-F research that has been done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmo (Post 14442)
Hey Wicket,

You should be the official BFP researcher. :bowdown:

Victoria 12-21-2009 08:42 PM
Hmm...
 

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.

turasultana 12-21-2009 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria (Post 24233)

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?
Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....

NotAnAverageGuy 12-21-2009 08:57 PM
Don't forget the terms Transgendered, Transsexual, etc.

Victoria 12-21-2009 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by turasultana (Post 24235)
Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy
Don't forget the terms Transgendered, Transsexual, etc.
Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.

NotAnAverageGuy 12-21-2009 09:19 PM
Transgendered is a huge umbrella term that is used, everyone on this site embraces their ID or label in their own way.

Corkey 12-21-2009 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria (Post 24249)
Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?


Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.
I'm gonna try to be gentile here. Some of us, myself included, do not consider ourselves lesbians. How we, specifically me, identify isn't up to anyone else to figure out. I am a human first, not a label, and certainly not a lesbian, of whom there are aplenty here. Welcome to the site, I hope you do a lot of reading.

Blue_Daddy-O 12-21-2009 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria (Post 24233)

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.
Welcome Victoria...Yes please do more reading or ask more questions.

I am not a Lesbian either!

You will find many here who aren't Lesbians (do NOT identify that way) and many here who are.

So you are wrong. We are not ALL Lesbians here and please respect that. This is your belief and reality not that of everyone here. With more understanding, maybe that will change for you. I am also Male-Identified. It would be like someone arguing with me when I say: I am not a girl. And they respond with: Yes you are. and I say: No I'm not. And they say: Yes you are.

Everyone loves being around those who respect us and not so much with those who don't.

Jett 12-21-2009 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by turasultana (Post 24235)
Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....
I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

Gemme 12-21-2009 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria (Post 24233)

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.
As mentioned by a few people already, not everyone is a lesbian. I'm not, though I am femme. I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. It took me many years to come to this point, so be patient in learning what works for you as well as others. Research will be your friend. Ask honest questions and you will get honest answers. Tolerance and acceptance is the key.

The part I've underlined is something you will just have to accept as not being able to do. Lesbian does not equal homosexual. Butch and femme does not equal lesbian. So, there's no way to "prove" this theory since it's false.

Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it.

Patience, grasshoppa.

I wish you luck in your journey.

turasultana 12-21-2009 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolis (Post 24301)
I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.
I was only referring to how it felt to call MY partner that since it doesn't fit him at all. Not anyone else on the site. If that was misinterpreted or said in a way that implied anything other than that I apologize.

Cyclopea 12-21-2009 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemme (Post 24303)
As mentioned by a few people already, not everyone is a lesbian. I'm not, though I am femme. I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. It took me many years to come to this point, so be patient in learning what works for you as well as others. Research will be your friend. Ask honest questions and you will get honest answers. Tolerance and acceptance is the key.

The part I've underlined is something you will just have to accept as not being able to do. Lesbian does not equal homosexual. Butch and femme does not equal lesbian. So, there's no way to "prove" this theory since it's false.

Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it.

Patience, grasshoppa.

I wish you luck in your journey.
Lesbian does = Homosexual.
This is my view AS A LESBIAN.

Blue_Daddy-O 12-21-2009 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria (Post 24249)
Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? Just my two cents.
And you would be wrong again on the meaning of Transgender.

I am Transgendered. I am Male-Identified (as I stated above) not Female-Identified. I do not identify as both.

A Transgendered person can identify as either Male or Female, equal or varying degrees of both or neither. One Gender, Gender Fluid or Genderless.

The definition of Transgender is: One who identifies with a gender they were not assigned/born with (Sex at birth).

Blue_Daddy-O 12-22-2009 12:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria (Post 24249)
Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? Just my two cents.
And more food for thought before I go for the night: To confuse you even more, which we love to do that around here...LoL... There are Femmes who are Female-Identified who also identify as Transgendered. For them, they have accepted Femme as their gender identity. Also, they may or may not identify as Lesbians.

Jett 12-22-2009 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O (Post 24329)
And more food for thought before I go for the night: To confuse you even more, which we love to do that around here...LoL... There are Femmes who are Female-Identified who also identify as Transgendered. For them, they have accepted Femme as their gender identity. Also, they may or may not identify as Lesbians.
...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh? ;)

----------------------------

Victoria welcome to the forums... there's plenty to explore and read about to get a feel for the place for yourself too.

We're alot more than just ID's... we're alot of good peeps also.

Again welcome,
Metro

PapaC 12-22-2009 12:43 AM
I was totally going to do the whole "variety is the spice of life" post, but you beat me to it, Metro. :)

and yes, welcome to the site, Victoria.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolis (Post 24332)
...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh? ;)

----------------------------
Victoria welcome to the forums... there's plenty to explore and read about to get a feel for the place for yourself too.

We're alot more than just ID's... we're alot of good peeps also.

Again welcome,
Metro

Blue_Daddy-O 12-22-2009 12:45 AM
And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolis (Post 24332)
...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh? ;)

Again welcome,
Metro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolis (Post 24301)
I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.
Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbiage, I'm more likely to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel disrespectful to you?

QueenofQueens 12-22-2009 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O (Post 24341)
And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!






Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbage, I'm more likey to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel desrespectful to you?
Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.

Blue_Daddy-O 12-22-2009 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenofQueens (Post 24342)
Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turasultana (Post 24235)
I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....
I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

WILDCAT 12-22-2009 03:17 AM
WOOO-HOOOOO!!!!!!
 
I SO feel that the recent "BUMP" in this thread was meant to be inflammatory.

Good luck folks, but please be careful to not be set up to turn on each other.

THAT is my queer GUT feeling here.

*Some things just seem to be MUCH TOO CLEVER in an attempt to "appear confused", ya know? I personally didn't appreciate the "directness" with/in the assumptions. Totally instigative in my way of thinking. (And disrespecting every one of us, queer, how we ID, transgengered, etc...)

PEACE
WILDCAT

:stillheart:


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