Like I said Julie, I'm not talking about why individual people are exceptions. I'm talking about ... I'm starting to feel like a record now.

I am typing in english, right?


I'm off for internet kittens and neurology. :)

You are making perfect sense. I understand you and I agree that femmes probably consider it more than butches do. Not all femmes, but on the whole I think that is true and there is something to look at there.

Yes I get it!! My post was not in response to you or your points. I was reflecting on the differences in my two marriages and how that motivated me.

Kittens are good!

I think a lot of people have come on and explained what they believe was behind their desire to change their name or give their name or keep both names or whatever. I think that in and of itself is a big thing really. People are not going to understand where every other person is coming from. That’s just the way it is. That we listen to each other and think about what the other has said is really all we can hope for and really quite a lot I believe. Sometimes even when we are saying the same thing it is often not recognized as such or has enough of a little twist that we don’t see it. For example HB called it unpacking I called it holding my masculinity suspect. We both mean similar things. I just think the most important thing in discussions that are fraught with deep feelings and beliefs is that we all respect each other, listen without judgment and if at the end it is all we can do, we just agree to disagree. I believe if we keep an open mind, listen without judgment, little seeds get planted and have a chance to germinate. Overtime people can change their ways of looking at stuff. Or not. It's all good. And it's why I bother to talk and why I bother to listen.

HB, I think you are trying to get at patterns and cultural conditioning. It may very well be that femmes consider name change more than butches. If so, why? Maybe butches are more reluctant to change their last names. If so, why? These types of questions may very well be worth examining. For me, it does seem to lead to me being placed in the "man-like" camp, which is something I bristle at and really can't relate to. But perhaps there is a fruitful way of talking about it.

People are posting to their own individual experiences because that is how they can relate to the question of name change and marriage. The decision does seem to be very much tied to very personal reasons to me. That is not to say that overall patterns don't exist that aren't worth examining.

For me, when I was younger I did not believe in same sex (or any type) marriage for myself. I wasn't open to the possibility of marriage until I was in my late 30s. I was never unhappy with my last name, and I still am not. I haven't ever thought about changing to a partner's, but if she really wanted me to I would definitely consider it. That is just my personal experience. I don't think it is typical butch or anything like that. It is just me and the life I have led. It is possible I am more part of a butch pattern than I realize, and it doesn't hurt to think about it and examine it further.

I don't think anyone is disputing the observation that if someone is going to give their name, it is more likely to be a butch, and if someone is going to take a name, it is more likely to be a femme.

instead of continuing to speculate about what motivates people to be that way, I'll speak for myself:



I don't want to name another human being, unless it is my child.

And I would never presume to name an adult, even if I were in a relationship with that person.

To put it another way, I would never want to bestow my name on another adult, or "give her my name," as the expression goes.

I would not feel honored if she wanted to replace her name with mine; I would feel worried about what I would see as her need to assume part of my identity.

Also, I would have too much respect for my partner's right to name herself, to change her name to mine. I would have too much respect for her name, to support its erasure.

And if she really wanted that, I would be uncomfortable.

As I see it, my name reflects me. Her name reflects her. I don't want HER name to reflect ME, or MY name to reflect HER. Some would say, But then it would reflect US. I say, no that doesn't ring true for me. That equation doesn't equal "us" to me.

I would not feel less loved, because she doesn't want to be named after me.

Likewise, I don't want to name myself after another person.

I want to carry the name that reflects my history, my family, my hard work that has been attached to that name.

If a partner wanted to name me after herself, or rather, wanted me to name myself after her, I would feel reinvented in a way I don't want.

I would feel like she wanted me to be an addition to her history, not a continuation of my own. I would feel that she didn't love and respect my name.

That's why I wouldn't be in a couple in which one person's last name represented us both.

I have come in here twice now and haven't answered the question.
For me, there is so much layered into it that I keep getting
sidetracked.
I would be cool with doing the hyphonated thing. For
me, it feels like the healthiest choice.
It means ( to me ) I could still be an individual and many other
things factor into that.

My whole life , I have wanted to propose but have not :)
I would have to be very sure that it was a healthy fit to
go down that road.

As role-ish as I am sometimes in relationships. The
healthier ones were with take charge types of women.
I'm sort of shy and think way too much.
So, as I was driving around this morning ( thinking)
I thought how cool it would be for a femme to propose.
I would likely brag about that everyday.
Old dogs really can learn new tricks! ;]
Old school can blend into new school ways.
I've learned to never give away my favorite shirt
But instead to give away my second favorite shirt.

I do notice , often online butches being intimidated by intelligent femmes
which strikes me as odd.
They seem to want that upper hand thing or want to feel superior.
I like smart women and hope to fall in love with
someone wayyy smarter than me , one day

I have finally read everything. Lots of differing opinions and quite honestly, a whole lotta judgment going on here.

Who cares why someone takes another person's name? Really? If a butch asks a femme to take their name and the femme is happy, who cares? If a femme wants to take her butches name, who cares? If a butch takes her name? WHO CARES?

I am getting married to Dreamer next May. Dreamer never asked me to take his name. I never asked Dreamer to take my name. We did have the conversation and I simply said, I am not changing my name. I hope you understand. Dreamer said, of course I do. Dreamer said, he would like to take my name and I was fine with that, but after discussing logistics... Immigration, Passports, Pensions, etc. We both decided too much work and so not worth it.

My name is my father's name, and it was his mother's name (maiden) and was his father's name. The line of my name goes thousands of years. It is rich in history for me. To give up my very Jewish name, was not an option for me. Not even a thought. Though, I did worry it might hurt Dreamer's feelings and was quite relieved it did not.

I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them.

Signed,

Julie without a dowry. Though, I am sure this really upsets my beloved dominant butch. Sorry baby.

I fn forgot about the ring part!
I got sidetracked with the "on bended knee" buisness ;]
I don't do rings , so don't bother until I can go with and
get a comfy one.
I will then buy you the biggest rock my credit can mustah .

Here's to new and improved fantasies ~~clink~~~

I don't think the subject of this thread is trivial.

Who is trivializing it?
If (and I am assuming) by my WHO CARES comment. I can assure you, I do not think any part of a relationship or commitment is trivial, including taking or changing your name. I think it is sad, when we start shaming people for their choices.

show me where I shamed someone for their CHOICE.

should I re-post my post about norms and what do you think that might mean and it NOT being about individuals but a greater...

hello? *tap tap* *tap*

maybe I should start speaking dutch? would that help?

probably not. I'm not sure you read my posts without the "acusitory meany mc mean angry poo breath" filter on me that wasn't *there*.

take that off, maybe put on the "wow, I've noticed that most femmes give their names up. Butches *tend* not to. maybe we should think about that" filter on.

If the subject of that *doesn't* interest you then say "I don't care if most femmes give their names and most butches don't. I don't agree with thinking about it. I've got dishes to do."

or whatever.

y'know?

Did I say honeybarbara you are shaming people?
No, I did not say that.
Perhaps you are feeling it on your own accord.
yknow?

nope you didn't name anyone and I'm the one that brought it up. so if there is a pa statement of "gosh, it feels judgy in here" *eyeball round* *saying nothing direct*

...and not naming who's dealin' it, I'll be happy to address it. so if you don't mean *me*, then how bout:

actually quoting who and what they said to actually address the comments you *do* mean, so it's clear and my princess self don't get all me me me knickers wedged up in my crack hm?

Nah... I am not in the mood to play tonight.
However... If you would like me to help you pull your princess knickers out of that crack of yours -- send me a shout!
:-)

absolutely. quote the shaming. lets look at it.

Really? I just cannot do this anymore tonight. I have been up since 6am - there is a typhoon in the Philippines and for me right now. That is more important and I have Dreamer on SKYPE - uber important. Not to mention, I still haven't watched AHS or Survivor. Y'know?

well... that's ok too. you aren't interested in the dialogue. no one has to be. Im sure you have more important things to do. My neurology isn't really getting done as I tippy tap away here.

you could help me by tying some floss to the drive-by-comment to the gusset, on your way past, in future.

Actually, I am interested in dialogue with you. I am rather intrigued by your mind and how you formulate your thoughts.

And... I had to have the aussie translate your last paragraph for me. And you are right, I am not following through and my intention was not for a drive by. I just don't have the energy tonight or brain power and will be happy to continue this with you when I do. And I say that with the utmost respect. Seriously.

I feel like we are looking for a statement that answers it all, which is impossible of course because there are people who have/gave a multitude of different answers.

We've looked at the history of marriage, we've talked about it as an ownership vs a mutual commitment (and cases where it's been one in the same), both butches and femmes have spoken as to why they would change/wouldn't change/would consider it, we've mentioned other contributing factors where their name has meaning to them such as being the only one with it/ it being unique in itself/ etc. We have mentioned it as something we were conditioned to think we had to do. We have talked about the butch = masculine/dominant role and femme = feminine/submissive role, though we didn't talk about if the femme was in a dominant role and what her view on it (I know someone mentioned "Jane and Jane's boi" but I do not see it in the posts below my response here so I do not remember who said it, I'm sorry). I know we mentioned how cis-men rarely take their wife's name but alas we have no cis-men in here whose brain to pick.

I personally can not see another way to pick it apart or find other answers to give.