Hi Guy,

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I'm interested in knowing where you feel people in here were being disrespectful? Actually, to be more specific, are you implying that people were being disrespectful to trans folks? If so, in which way? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but my focus was elsewhere.

Hi Stephanie,


I think by being condecending towards the fifties lifestyle, just because someone does not agree with it, is disrespectful.

I wasn't condescending toward it. I am fine with it unless you or someone thinks it is something to be promoted, some ideal to be emulated. You want to recommend to your daughter that she should defer to her husband because he is a guy?

Well thanks Guy for the clarification. In terms of FTM and trans people, they don't all share the same views or live the same way, so I don't understand the connection with FTMS and 50s lifestyle and how that would be disrespectful to FTMS and trans people. None of my objections have anything to do with any specific gender or any individual relationships at all.

I think this going back and forth is leading to another derail. I am done.

Confused
 

It's not a contest, it's a discussion that needed to be had that has now evolved into another thread with lots of value.

No one that I know of or am aware of is attempting to police how you or anyone else is living their lifestyle. I am unsure why this is so hard to understand or how it can be communicated any further.

No one that I know of or am aware of is attempting to police how you or anyone else is living their lifestyle


It sure feels that way to me, and I am sure I am not alone in this, as other members have tried to explain why they are "afraid" to post or feel "judged" for their lifestyle.

Still confused
 

No one has done these things, I promise I have looked. I know that I personally have not come from that space.

I still don't get the whole "afraid" scenario, it's odd to me because no one in here has been frightening, mean or scary..

I am truly trying to understand where this assumption has rooted from.

I don't really have anything else to say about this. I didn't say you (Snow) personally.

There is an exuberance that I feel in my attraction to the Ftms and TG Butches that I am endeared to that I simply never feel with anyone else. Somehow it brings out in me an enthusiasm for life, for sex, for being the girl that I am. It makes me want to sing this song to Hym.........


and trust me I never feel that desire with bio men, women or other girls.... :cheesy:

I don't think I can explain it any better than that.

Brutal, i read this and i had to stop right there...because i have an issue with a word that you used in your post.Shame. One word. I did not want to respond to your post here, in public, how i felt or why i was bothered by it.
First, because i didn't (and don't now) want to hurt your feelings, or embarrass you, or take away from the true heartfelt feelings that you had to share with everyone here. I thank you for what you shared.

Two, because it is so personal and i appreciate how difficult it can be to open up to a public forum. Lastly, i wanted other people to hear the important parts of your message and what you had to convey and i didn't want to stir the pot unecessarily. You said it so well and i didn't
want to take away from the positive response that you received or draw away from that attention. (just for my beef with the one word.) I still don't want the attention or the work it takes to follow up on posts.

I share many similar feelings. I will not claim them to be the same as yours because i want to be clear that these are just my personal feelings.

it is a fact, for me, that the denial of my past is not congruent with the whole of who i really am today. Therefore, for me, it can be such a struggle, sometimes, to whip my cock out to perfect strangers and then be frustrated as to why the hell it should matter to anyone other than a woman i would be intimate with. In some cases it does matter.i.e. for personal safety...is one reason. There are different reasons why i do come out to the public.

However, it usually has to be decided or when and if i feel that it is necessary. The word shame bothers me because I personally am not ashamed of who i was as a butch or a girl growing up. nor, am i ashamed of being an FTM. I wasn't in control of how i was born
I don't believe you are ashamed either because of what you posted. And i am not going to assume that you are ashamed that you were once female.
I am not sure.

Shame is not a good word to use. Nor, is it a good feeling. To me, the word shame implies blame. As if, i should be ashamed of who i once was because i was female. And to be ashamed of who i was...would imply that i should be ashamed of who i am now.
In addition, shame could imply that i have done something wrong. And i have not done anything wrong when it comes to me and my own evolution. And i wholeheartedly refute that with a passion. And to be honest, sometimes this is reason enough to come out to the public or a person. Also, being female is not something to be ashamed of either. So, that also has to be explained and defended. It isn't easy either.

Embarrassed or shy to come out to the public or to a person...is another word and emotion entirely.

I hope that I have not offended you by sharing my feelings here, if i have...i will apologize in advance. And thank you for sharing Brutal. I just don't want you to be ashamed or to own that shame. It is not yours to own. Nor mine.

DMW

And talk about derailing a thread...i have drerailed this thread myself. SHeeet.

And then, there is the other stuff...i don't know if i want to try and go back to grasp those feelings again and then to understand them and then to explain that right now. I don't know if i have the energy for it. Nor, the right words to do so in order to be effective.

OMG..that is so funny...ok...ok...i am listening to the song now....omg that is funny.
Thank God for femmes. A peacock hugh? too damn good. too damn apropo...Love it

Um, Guy, with all due respect, there are transwomen that are lesbians. Therefore, by definition, why wouldn't there be posts about lesbians that happen to be transwomen in the Trans zone?

To be fair, though, this particular thread is NOT about transwomen; rather, it is about what attracts someone to transmen. Please remember us transwomen in the future, though. Thanks

Snow! I'm so not ignoring your post!! My head is giving me fits right now and because I just blabbed all over this thread about language, I really should wait this head ache out.

Also, I should have not posted to you about teasing out anything cause I didn't mean the scared of part. But that's how it appears....sloppy I was...


I promise to get back to you when I'm not scrambled so bad!!!




j

First, let me put a little disclaimer in here: I am only referring to myself when I post my reponse here and I intend no disrespect to anyone who disagrees or sees things differently than I do.

That being said... I am a post top-op FTM. I also consider myself genderqueer because I don't always feel completely male and I have no interest in lower surgery. I do refer to myself as a lesbian at times, although queer may be a more accurate term. So my question is (again, no disrespect intended) why shouldn't an FTM who also considers himself a lesbian post in the trans zone? Still trans, just uses a different label than some other FTMs? Plus, although I am FTM, my past girlfriends still considered, and referred, to themselves as lesbians. They just happen to be lesbians who were in love with a transman.

Another point to consider is many FTMs are just starting their journey and may not be comfortable stepping outside of the lesbian label, and some may never be comfortable stepping outside of that label. Many of them are in lesbian relationships and are happy that way. It doesn't mean they are not trans and it doesn't mean they shouldn't feel comfortable posting in the trans zone. Trans is trans regardless of where on the trans spectrum you are and regardless if you call yourself a lesbian or not. Transgender no longer refers to transforming from one gender to solely another. It now includes a very very wide umbrella of people.

Sorry - just had to throw in my 2 cents.

-A lesbian transman

I know I'm not Brute and I know my brain is scrambled BUT.....lol


The shame he was talking about is not general. It's specific to certain...things that have happened TO him in his journey to him.

I'll leave it at that I just thought that might help understand it wasn't shame of the journey. He may have more to say after he parks his truck.



....must shut up julie!!!

The reason I rarely, if ever get involved in threads like this - or even bother to read through them is this: it is f-ing impossible to qualify what you have to offer of *yourself* without offending someone. In fact, the qualifying is tedious.

Obviously people speak only from their own experience, as themselves.

And it's a forum, meaning anyone who feels s/he has something to contribute should. Some people are a-holes. Some are misunderstood. Some are early in h/is process, or young, or insecure, and project their own "shoulds", even inadvertently, and although it is judgmental, the person hasn't the capacity to recognize it.

While semantics and language are important, it is equally important to understand from where a person is coming rather than to fixate on wording.

All I really know is it's tiresome when a conversation about a complex subject ends up with people quoting, quoting and quoting again to clarify, defend, etc. We're all on the same side - we all seek community, and while there is room for disagreement, it should not be about things insanely personal, like how we choose to define ourselves, feel, or be. We get enough crap from the rest of the world, if anyone should be able to respect the members of this vast planet, we should. Even if we are just understanding that someone is extremely touchy about language. And for those extremely touchy about language - the same - understand that there is NO way, without a paragraph drawn up by an attorney, to write about these topics in a way that doesn't offend someone.

In a way, it's all silly, and prevents real communication.

I grew up in the 1960's not 1950s but my mother was basically June Cleaver- not pearls and heels, but she was a housewife with 3 kids. She got a scholarship to go to college but got married instead. When my father got abusive she really had no way out- no way to support her children- not to mention all of the Christian and societal upbringing. So the June Cleaver/50's ideal hits me in the gut and not in a good way. I also feel it is uplifting white upper middle class as "the ideal" over everything else.

I feel no one has attacked but big charges have been made and when we ask for clarification we really don't get any and are told we are making people scared to post and to get out.

I think there is a better place to have this discussion and it is happening now in another thread. Sorry if I intruded but it hits me in the gut hard.

I think there is a misperception, assumption that Transmen, masculine, and/or male identified people are in denial, cut off, ashamed or terribly traumatized from their experience of being born into a female body and socialized in various degrees to align with society's idea of what a female body person "should" think and act.

I have been posting for a few years now about this stuff and if you read carefully what I say, never have I said I was the same as a cisgender man. I know there are others with similar thoughts and I know there are Transmen that do not feel or think the same.

I do think there are times when masculine and male identified butches and Transmen are dealt with in a way that reeks of a double standard. For example, if I were to come in and talk about how I wanted a wife I believe my using the term "wife" would rub many the wrong way. There would be an assumption that my idea of a wife is not equal in the power structure. If a femme expresses a desire for a wife, it is assumed the power dynamic will be equal and misogyny or the patriarchical belief systems are not in play.

This is not to say that misogyny does not exist. It does exist and it is incumbent on all of us to do our work. Much of it is interalized and we may not even be aware of it. It is not excuse to continue living in ignorance. We all have work to do.

I realize we're sort of shutting down this part of the discussion, but I'll just add that I agree being condescending toward anyone could be considered disrespectful; but I didn't see the connection between that and this being in the trans zone, and your reference to the lifestyle, that's all. I just wanted to understand where your comment was coming from.

Okay, got Ursula parked for the night, finally.


DMV, Julie pretty much hit the nail on the head with the use of the word shame, for me.

There were specific incidents, growing up as a female but feeling/knowing something just was not right with me, that caused the shame. It's not something I'll talk about out in the open but it's not something I will put away forever either because it is a part of the journey I've taken to get here. I gotta take the good with the bad. Lol.

I can honestly say that Julie has played a very very major role in me finally being totally okay with aligning my outside with my inside. I don't think she realizes that though. A lot of it comes from the religious upbringing and family that I come from. Yet they all adore Julie. Hell my own granny forced us to have a shot gun wedding at her house. My mom, in the past year or two, has started calling me, "her son". Most of the above has happened because they see that someone like me, a FTM, can be loved and accepted by another. That I'm not just some freak of nature or worse yet, someone who enjoys "dancing with the Devil" just to be the black sheep of the family.

Oh lordy, that was a derail if there ever was one but felt the need to share that. I guess what it boils down to is this....I am so damn grateful for threads like this because it's nice to be reminded every now and then why someone like myself could and would be appreciated, and not just by their lover/wife/spouse/partner or family. ;)


Y'all Rock For Now,
Brute.


P.S. Snow, you scare me all the time. Just sayin'. *grinning*

Their courage, strength of heart & spirit, the will to be true to who they are in the face of much bigotry, adversity and misunderstanding. And physically for me, just their sheer hottiness. Mhmmm.

Humm...i am pondering on this now...all of the derails...including some of my own...wondering if i should put my feelings in here...this space where people are supposed to be able to say what attracts them to people. feeling that i would just like to have a space to breathe and be my asshole, masculine, wonderful self and not feel picked at...a feeling as if i were cariron for vulchers...nor, do i like feeling or seeing ...especially submissive femmes...going through what must feel somewhat the same...( i am not quite sure) i believe buttons are being pushed when i voice out my honest genuine self (when and as if, i were talking with someone i adored or was being intimate with or a friend or brother that knows me well,but, i am here)...which leads me to suppose i should tamper myself...protect and guard myself with what i say or share...i have to ask myself..how are these people...to understand that...i am not a man that looks at a woman in a demeaning light...or see's her ...as if she belongs in a role that would make her feel badly about herself. If i were to say...damn...what you just said was so fing hot and i would like to bend *** **** *************...better censor myself here...because one...i don't share that well in a public space because...a.) it is sacred to me...how i talk to MY WOMAN...because, to me, she is sacred and so is that bond... and b.) now, i should tamper that down even more.....to darkness...because...i might offend someone for being me... not to mention,this is a space for those who are attracted to ftms to speak... not really me to reply to that... also, with what i say...may be perceived or thought of as "talking down to a woman or being sexist or...i don't know...wrong)...and it could make some women feel badly or trigger them...i suppose..i have to think more about this...i would like to start a new thread...but, i don't know how yet. I have grown tired of feeling like i have to apologize when i am just being myself. It is actually quite disturbing...the feeling like i have to defend myself or others just for being here.

I refuse to pick apart anyone else's previous posts because...i don't want them to feel picked on like carrion either...but, i won't lay down either and i hate to see...anyone lay down when they are just trying to express themselves...

@dmw -
I commend you on your struggle to be clear, to be heard, to be yourself. It's very hard to be see for who you are in the written word. I learned in another thread (and was summarily smacked down for what other's say routinely) that one just can't take for granted that you will be "heard". The only way I've figured out to do it, if I care enough about the topic to go through the effort, is to use the "sandwich" technique. Put what you have to say between two pieces of metaphorical bread - qualifiers, compliments - something to make clear that what you have to say is just you. Do I resent that? A little. Then again, if it keeps someone from feeling judged or insulted, I suppose it's worth it.

On another note - alluding to the June Cleaver stuff, and somewhat what you have to say about speaking to your mate - I think some of what we who profess to admire or desire a '50's type dynamic are misunderstood, and also misrepresent. The key is: it's a kink, on some level. It's the idea of what it means to us now - not what it meant then. There was no choice then. There is now. It has become more appealing because there IS a choice. And again, it's taking on the parts that from a distance are appealing, and leaving behind the unpleasantness that made that a reality at one time. Kind of like those folks who are into Medieval Fairs - it's romanticized, far removed from what life was like for the actual participants, and based on an idea, a dynamic, not what it meant to be covered in smallpox scars and be covered in lice, no matter your social status.

continued from my first post...or be themselves and be accepted for who they are...
it must be difficult to be a moderator here...somewhat like a police state...
I have been around biomales and been offended by what they have said about
women. And i do not remain silent...or let their deragatory or offhand sexist remarks ...go by...unanswered or unquestioned...or without defending that woman..even if i don't know her....or especially if the remark was about women in general. I don't even like revealing this much about myself period. So, i can understand the questions from this site.

That was odd...my computer froze...my memory was full i believe...had to clear out the cache etc.

Hominid, thank you for your post. I agree with you on the necessity to provide a generalized note stating, for example, (my post is only regarding how I feel) in order to avoid offending others. I get that for sure.
And the 50's ....i wasn't sure i was even going to go into trying to explain...i am low on energy also...however, i do like your explanation..it is quite clear. I believe that will help some people.
I appreciate that. For now i sign off.
Cheers

Clarification
 

DMW would you be so kind and clarify what you meant? Thank you

Violence solves nothing
 

People coming in and stating their views and having a conversation is not a "SMACK DOWN"

I am unsure of what thread you are talking about since there are so many here on BFP, but I have yet to see anyone *smacking* anyone have folks been taken to task? Yes Do the isms get called out? Yeap. If you are being harrassed or threatened on BFP you should really really have the Moderators take care of that for you:)

Seriously?

I think most of us get enough of this common attitude (both the entitlement and the poor me bits) from men in the real world.

:blink:

waits for the answer

Ugh!!!

I understand the feeling that some people may have that they are being jumped on. Which was what I was trying to talk to you, Snow, about when my head imploded.

I wasn't talking about the "being scared of" bits because THAT, I don't get. And I've told you a bunch of time that it makes no sense to me why people are scared of you???? :| That's got to suck to hear all the time when all you're here to do is interact with people who you like and and are like you in many ways.

The above responses to me are totally reasonable. I think if someone puts out there that they are feeling attacked, bullied or XYZ...then ask about it. Like you did. No judgement, no attack, just a hey.....can you help me out with this, I don't get it.

However, I do understand why people feel jumped on.....and since I can't multi-quote as well as I'd like, I'm gonna have to finish this in a second post....so stand by....:blush:

Well
 

And when people ask where and when they were "attacked & bullied" there's nothing, no response. IF the bullying, and attacking does happen we have this great option called the report button, and if you are one of the people who do not like using the report button then I fear that the attacks and alleged bullying will go unnoticed by the Moderating team.

BFP isn't like any other online forum when it comes to them shenanigans, it really isn't read around...


This is a tiring argument that each time an ism or the bullshit is called out, people start saying:

I'm being silenced

I am being jumped on, attacked, chased out, afraid, bullied.



We are all equal here, there is no heirarchy and we are all free to post as long as we abide the TOS.

NOT ONCE in this tiring conversation has anyone bullied, attacked, picked on, anyone.


True story.



PS


I can't tell you how fucking tired I am of people claiming I am scary, or frightening. If you knew me, truly knew me you'd laugh and shake your head at the ridiculousness of the descriptors....

Cont.....
 

Please note that I am not trying to call you two out or say that I feel as though I'm being attacked. I am using these two posts as example of my thinking.


So cont......

After Snow, reasonably and justly asks for an explanation, we then get two more posts that could be read as snarky.


Why do I feel that they could be read as snarky??? Cause I remember back to when I was new to posting on these threads, YEARS ago. I was not as well versed on the language, the ideas, the issues surrounding certain parts of these debates as I am now. I didn't know how to express myself in ways that helped other people really hear what I was saying. (shit, still don't know how most of the time.) Because I didn't know HOW to say things in YOUR language, not the language I had known my all my life.

So, my point is, some people who come here really try to make a point and they just are inartful in the way they do it. Some are trying to learn and to those people it could be really scary. They want to interact with other people like them but there is a learning curve that we all have to go through and in that time, it's intimidating. I know I found the dash-site in 2002, didn't post one damn thing for two years cause I read and read and read and realized I had a lot of learning to do before I could express my feelings in an appropriate way. I just hadn't gained the correct language before I found that site. Some people aren't that way. They find us here and really jump in with both feet. But they are trying.


Some, are assholes. Jump at will in my opinion.


Why am I saying all this and quoting the above posts?? Because, *I* wish that when someone asks a person in a thread to please explain what they meant. And asks in a totally appropriate and reasonable way as Snow did.....Can we maybe wait and let the person respond before coming in with posts like the above?

The post that was made was called out by Snow, give the poster time to respond. PLEASE!!! Then if the poster proves that they are just not getting it, then ask some more.


Gahhh!! It's not up to me to tell anyone how to interact on these threads and I don't mean to come across that way. But this comes up all the time.

"I feel jumped on."

"I don't get that"

"But I'm getting attacked"

"Where"

"blah, blah, BLAH"

My feeling is, it's because people pile on. Not meaning to I'm sure. And not trying to be asshats about it. But, to people who are new/trying/not there yet/intimidated already, it can really feel like they are being bullied.

Can we just hear that message and maybe think about it???


Geez.....I hate pollyanaing out but I really understand both "sides" for lack of a better word, on this.

Sorry, derail, ignore as needed, jump on me as needed, just please think about it.


julie

I get it!!! Please see above or below. whichever it is on your computer.

And believe me, I laugh and shake my head a LOT when I see people refering to you like that. I don't know, maybe I just met you in a different way but I think you're a really sweet and caring person. SUPER funny. I like you a lot. Wierd how others read you so differently.

its ok if you are calling me out, but my respose to wait for the answer is becasue I read the thread and i could respond to some things but i saw where a question was asked or two and i wondered what the answer would be so i wait.That way i get to respond if i want after the answer. Its called trying to understand why and where someone is coming from instead of passing judgement.

thanks

I get that. And truely I am NOT trying to call you out. I just used you as an example.

I'm sorry, I know for you it probably doesn't feel that way.

I understand how you feel and why you feel it. I just have been thinking about this circle argument that goes on all the time and felt the need to blab my feelings on it.

Please know I am NOT trying to police anything. I just want to put my thoughts out about this "issue" and see how others are thinking about it.


j

No computing
 

I don't understand Julie, why Mike's and Soon's posts are read as detremental to the conversation, how they are read as attacking yet the two posts that I quoted aren't?

How does that happen?

personally i think the post are just us saying we are reading and wondering also.