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Seriously though. There will be no "common sense" when it comes to this law. There will be a simple blanket law, you don't do it, yer arrested. They won't care about circumstances because you can't possibly think up all the circumstances that could arise to hold someone up from notifying them. Isn't anyone outraged by these type laws and how they could be used against us? too much government in my life I tell ya! Ugh! Calm down people, and stop the mob mentality! I know of two other situations that happened RIGHT NOW where children were killed by caretakers/parents. Happens all the time somewhere on this earth. It is sad but knee jerk reactions aren't helping!! rant rant sorry! |
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These tragedies are coming out of the woodwork..
This one today: <snip> MONTREAL - Some Quebecers called for the death penalty as anger raged at a former doctor who was found not criminally responsible for killing his two young children. Guy Turcotte, 39, admitted to stabbing five-year-old Olivier and three-year-old Anne Sophie 46 times in his rented home in Piedmont, north of Montreal, on February 20, 2009. The 11 jurors accepted the defence's argument that Turcotte suffered from depression, anxiety and was suicidal after he found out his estranged wife was having an affair with a friend. He had sent an e-mail to his ex-wife on the day of the killings that read "you want war, you'll have it." The court also heard that little Olivier tried in vain to talk his father out of killing him, crying "no papa," before Turcotte plunged the knife into his stomach. The trial judge ruled that the jury was not allowed to hear that Turcotte refused to pay for his children's funerals. Law enforcement officials and ordinary citizens blasted Tuesday's verdict, saying it sends the wrong message to fathers going through messy divorces. <snip> If this was not a case of *I'll get even with the ex* I don't know what was! I am sure the mother is to blame here too. grrrrrr What law could have protected these kids?? |
Heart, that is an excellent idea - you should start a thread dedicated to "deeper issues". But, as far as your comment of "can we move beyond this case..." I started this thread specifically for the discussion of 'this case' - to get opinions on whether Casey Anthony was guilty or not, and it still remains the focus of the thread.
That said, I have read your comments with great interest. They are enlightening, and give much food for thought. I welcome your input and any further comments you wish to share with us. But I respectfully request that you not try to change the intended purpose of this thread. Thank you. Quote:
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I have been glued to the TV all day...
...and I'm upset at myself for doing that - there's things to be done...however, I can't tear myself away. The last time I did that, it was decided that Casey would be out in 6 days - how it got to that point, I don't know - I missed that part.
In any case, things keep evolving...now the discussion has turned to where will she go? Can she live safely in society? Is her safety at stake? All I know is right or wrong, sensible or not, there are alot of angry people out there, and it wouldn't surprise me if some unbalanced person does her harm. Where do you suppose she could live, and how, in this country? Some have suggested plastic surgery, a name change, and putting great distance between herself and Florida. But seriously, where in the US could she possibly go - the world, for that matter. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one - speculations, sensible or not, are welcome. I'm just curious what everyone thinks about this. |
To Mr Moon...thank you for your post. I did glance over the law that Change.org is trying to pass and i did sign it without first studying it further. like so many others i signed it without doing research..my reason was so much knee jerk as in emotional...however after reading ur post and thinking i realize u r absolutely right! There is no way to make that law work. Thank you for eduvating me a little today.
To Cinderella, i do believe she will have a hard time for awhile...and i do agree her safety is gonna be an issue bc there are people out there who do stupid things. however i think that just like everything else it will die down eventually,and she will be able to resume a somewhat normal life---without having to do anything major to herself. There will always be someone out there that obsesses over her and what she did,but once time has passed or some other horrific crime fills our airways and print she will fall off the radar--unless she does something criminal! Right now emotions are raw and there are those looking for their 15 sec of fame...in time tho |
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I hope she just disappears out of the sight of the world for now. Karma is evident, and something i believe in, to a fault probably. For me, and I hope for others, making some type of positive from a negative is what I will try to do. |
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The change.org petition was the immediate reaction of a concerned, well meaning citizen, who "acted" and if nothing else, will bring attention from law makers to begin to research the proper actions to take regarding missing, exploited and abused children. It is merely a stepping stone and without proper legalese would never become an actual law. While it may not be THE answer legally, it is a beginning and is bringing about discourse such as this. For that, I am grateful. I firmly believe that the more concerned citizens become aware and involved in the process, the more comprehensive our laws can become. It will be voices exactly like yours Heart, whom have the first hand knowledge of the inner workings of our social systems that will be and are some of the most needed. Thank you for what you do for families. I can only imagine the frustration on the part of people who are in the trenches trying to sincerely get "actual" support where it is truly needed and that is usually way before this type of incident ever happens. |
I know that here in California, the woman who was dating Scott Peterson, Amber Frey, when he allegedly killed his wife (Laci) and unborn child, has moved to another state and changed her name. It can be done, but it takes time for people to forget. Sometimes a LOT of time.
As for whether or not Casey Anthony is guilty? I don't think anyone has the answer to that question, except Casey Anthony. Just my thoughts on these two questions. |
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As a single parent who has experienced the family UNfriendliness up close and personal, I could not agree with you more. Especially the importance of "weed(ing) out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent." There is a vast difference between those two creatures, and we should be wary of enacting any law that would trap the latter into the net with the former. But then, I find it hard to believe that even the most stressed out parent wouldn't report their child missing within a few hours, let alone 24 (or whatever the requirement) and that alone would serve as a weeding out process (though I'm not saying that's sufficient). Like you, I am wary of knee jerk legislation, and would need to very carefully read all the fine print before I lend my signature. |
Caylee's Law...
I too had a 'knee-jerk' reaction to this suggestion, but thanks to Heart's post, I don't think I will subscribe.
General 'Blanket Laws', as Heart put it, can seem to be a great thing, but ultimately can be dangerous and have serious repurcusions. I am a passionate Latin woman who tends to jump at conclusions, and want to 'get on the bandwagon' whenever something like Caylee's Law is suggested. But, thankfully, time and age has taught me a valuable lesson - be wary of 'good things'...they may not be so 'good' after all is said and done. In retrospect, I can see how this law can be a good idea gone bad... Again, thanks for opening up my eyes, and conscienceness, Heart. |
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I don't think any of us need fear that a proposal is going to be lifted straight from Facebook or change.org and passed as law. It will be discussed, changed, and altered many times before anything is done. I think petitions of this sort are valuable in that they tell our legislators that we see a gap in the law...and put them on course to addressing it. |
I totally respect everyone's opinion and am glad to have read them. I have kept up with this story since the very beginning.
I just happen to think she's guilty. That's my two cents. |
A word on "blanket petitions"
It is a tangible proof of public opinion - that a law needs to be created. Once it is brought to legislative parties, they will fine tooth comb it and refine the legalities.
I've sifted through several of them this morning - and some I found to be quite harsh. One wanted to declare it first degree murder with a 25 year sentence. I think that's a bit much. I am sure there will be considerations in those cases of extenuating circumstances. If someone can't report their child missing because they are being abused or held hostage, etc ... I sincerely doubt a court will throw her in jail on a felony charge if it proven she was forced, etc. They will amend it to make it as "right" as possible. |
Well, it's underway .....
Just two days after a Florida jury found Casey Anthony not guilty of murdering her 2-year old daughter Caylee, four states are drafting legislation being referred to as "Caylee's Law," which would tighten requirements on missing persons reports.
Lawmakers in Florida, Oklahoma, New York and West Virginia have all announced that they will propose versions of the law. This comes at the same time that an online petition for a "Caylee's Law" went viral on Change.org, which has collected over 300,000 signatures. Oklahoma Rep. Paul Wesselhoft said that the petition, created by Michelle Crowder of Durant, Okla., caught his eye and the eyes of his constituents. "Yesterday, I got a lot of emails from my constituents who are very outraged by the trial and the verdict," Wesselhoft told ABCNews.com. "We're all outraged that Caylee did not receive justice. There's no question about that." Wesselhoft, a Republican, plans to propose a law at the start of Oklahoma's legislative session in 2012 that would make it a felony for a parent of guardian not to notify authorities within 24 hours of a child's death. He also plans to propose a requirement for parents to notify runaways under the age of 12 in a timely manner, although he admits having a time table for that is "more difficult because you don't know when the clock starts," he said. More here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-antho...ry?id=14020260 |
Maybe it's me but isn't even 24 hours kinda long for a missing 2 year old?
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We ( the people) have their attention, now it is up to us to make them aware of the potential dangers of the previously mentioned pitfalls of a "blanket law". Conversations like the very one going on here, is what will help our representatives help our families. I do not see the action of the change.org petition initiator as negative or dangerous. I see it as an excellent opportunity for follow up from an informed public. |
I have been glued to the TV watching this case. One of the protestors was carrying a sign that read "Somewhere a village is missing 12 idiots." Then there was a young guy on the other side of the red tape on the opposite side of the protestors who was carrying a sign "Marry Me Casey!". It boggles one's mind. :| I do think that Casey isn't safe living in Florida. She does need to move, change her name, have plastic surgery, and move on with her life. However, I do think we will hear her commiting another crime for some reason or another. It is another OJ Simpson but with Casey. I would like to know that since Casey is a convicted felon for the check fraud issues, does she have to pay the $4,000 when she is released from jail next week? And is there a time table for her to pay back the State of FL for the various searches for Caylee, police support and so on? The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion. :detective: |
Andrew,i mean no disrespect,but ur statement of "single women who dislike men" is way off base and out of line. Altho it was a 7/5 split(if i recall correctly) i know of at least 2 female jurors were married. As for George....he made himself look untrusting..the way he went around answering instead of directly,or getting into a pissing match with Baez
The jury being blamed is ludicrous...they admitted they wanted to convicted,but the evidence THEY needed wasnt there. It took a lot of strength for them not to vote out of emotion--i cant imagine how hard that is. As for pymt Casey is responsible for the $4000 court cost (which a pymt plan will be set up) as for what if any is her part in the search for Cayleee wont be determined until the hearing--which im unsure of when that happens! |
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Everyone has the right to their own opinion. That is why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors. |
Yes we all have a right to our opinions but no right to be offensive.
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Andrew
I have ALWAYS tried to understand your reasonings and posts when a lot of people jump to the wrong conclusion,or flat out attack you,but your last post was totally a "fuck you" in my eyes to all of "US" single moms...and to me personally because i am the SINGLE mother of a MALE child. You are right everyone is entitled to their own opinion...i guess kinda like everyone has the right to be an asshole! |
Ladies and Gentlemen, I was only stating my own personal opinion. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion. This evening my neighbors and I were chatting about this case over dinner, and everyone agreed with my opinion. I am really surprised that folks here were offended because when chatting about this, some of the neighbors were single mothers. I am now leaving this thread. Andrew |
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I know I'm not the first one verbalizing this, but this statement is offensive. There are an awful lot of us who are single mothers....and I would venture to guess it has no impact on our opinions about men. As a matter of fact, both my partner and I are the single mothers of boys. Are you trying to tell us we dislike men? And, if so, when are we supposed to suddenly start disliking our sons? You're calling this an "opinion" - which it is....but it's the same kind of opinion that leads to racism, sexism, sizism, ageism and all of the crap we're all supposedly working hard to rid ourselves of. |
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We're receiving reported posts from this thread. Let's steer clear of any dog-piling situations while the mod team sorts this out.
We'll be back. Thanks. Thinker (moderator) |
Personally, I'm done with reading this thread for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I may say something out of line and be considered a vigilante and it will be viewed as inappropriate (even though in my mind I feel differently) and I'm saying that openly here.
In time the truth will come out because it usually has a way of doing so. Lastly, and most importantly, rest in peace sweet little Caylee. You're an angel in heaven and will not be forgotten. :candle: :candle: :candle: - Scorp (unsubscribing from this thread) |
Moderation
I'm going to steal a page out of June's play book and go through these posts with you; some are problematic and some are not.
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It really was a gross statement to make. Quote:
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I understand the feelings involved here, but I believe we can always do better (and you initially did) than resorting to name-calling. Once we go down that road, the person whom we most want to hear us is no longer listening. Quote:
Try to avoid the leaving announcement though. I don't believe anyone here wanted you to leave because you said that. I think they wanted you to understand why it was so offensive to them. Quote:
As I was working on this post I kept thinking to myself, "I hope no one sees this as condescending." I give you my word there is nothing uppity or all-knowing about sharing out this way. It really is our hope that members here will be able to have hard discussions with one another without always resorting to the "report" button. If we are able to do that then that means we have said difficult things to one another and we have LISTENED to things that might be hurtful without resorting to name-calling, without feeling stepped to, without feeling personally attacked, etc... A lot of this shit isn't easy, and it's rarely easy to put personal feelings aside when interacting with another member........and it seems damn near impossible to just ignore the posts of people we don't care for! ;) But that *is* what we're working toward. We've come a long friggin' way, and the mod/admin team has seen a drop in reports because so many of you are really thinking about what you've written down before you hit the SUBMIT REPLY button. Thank you for that, by the way. :) So let's get back on track here. If you have any questions about this moderation, please contact one of us via PM so as not to further derail this very important discussion. Thinker (moderator) |
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Rikki Klieman, a Los Angeles-based criminal defense lawyer and former prosecutor, said that while she supports the Anthony verdict, she also finds it reasonable in some cases to elevate misdemeanors, such as failure to notify, to felonies. "But we have to have a debate about defining this," she said. "In some of the proposed laws I've seen, the times are very short. Yes, 31 days is too long, but I can think of many situations in which 48 hours would be too short. We can't put parents and caretakers in a situation that may not be their fault. We have to pay attention to reasonable complications and circumstances." http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ne...125199389.html So far, the petition elicited over 600,000 signatures making it very clear that although the general public is outraged - something needs to be done. Every state that has adopted this is working on their own version of it - in attempt to keep it reasonable. |
Good point, Jo. And you are right, these things have to be very carefully thought out before they actually become law.
Petitions are important - it lets the government & judicial system know what the people are thinking/feeling. Our judicial system is not perfect - it has been created by imperfect human beings. But, as many commentators have said - our judicial system is not perfect by any means, but by comparison with other countries, it is the best in the world. I can't say that's completely valid - I only know about US law, and that barely - but in the UK, it is my understanding that one is considered guilty until proven innocent, where in the US, it's the opposite. However you slice it, for me personally, I'd rather deal with our imperfect system then any other country's. Quote:
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This is, of course, a valuable service which I am willing to provide for a small, nominal monthly charge or even barter. For example, I'll be your Black Friend to the Rescue for, say, an iPad 2. :) Cheers Aj |
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As to the UK.......in criminal cases the burden of proof is on the prosecution just like in the US. I lived in New Zealand for a year and their judicial system is just as good as ours. Actually I was far less suspicious of the po po (police) when I lived there.....they did not come armed and they knock politely on the door instead of banging on the door with a flashlight. They didn't try to get in the house and were very apologetic for waking me up at midnight. The guy they were looking for did not live at that address any longer. This idea of US exceptionalism.........we are the best, have the best, work the hardest, have the best system of governing, etc......makes me bonkers. Plus it's insulting to the rest of the world that operate as democracies. As near as I can tell a number of those democracies work better than ours depending on what indicators you look at. None of them have the death penalty and they all have universal health care for everyone paid for by everyone's tax dollars. |
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Cheers Aj |
More than 800,000 people have now signed the Change.org petition for Caylee's Law, as legislators in at least 16 states have pledged to introduce their own Caylee's Laws.
Other states where lawmakers are considering such measures include Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas and West Virginia, according to news reports. Florida's proposal would make it a felony for a parent or other caregiver to not report a child under the age of 12 missing after 48 hours. It also makes it a felony to not report a child's death or "location of a child's corpse" to police within two hours of the death. Had Florida's measure been in place and Anthony been convicted, she could have faced another 15 years behind bars. |
NYT editorial - it's not the justice system that's at fault, it's the opportunism.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/op...runi.html?_r=1 |
You can also blame bad detective and forensic work. But, yes, the world got high and the media got rich on this indignation rush. I also agree that the feeding frenzy crushed the case causing the jurors to second guess themselves.
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I know about the case and occasionally read updates. There is no defense against insanity within a psychopath. I rank these cockroaches, sub-humans in the same category as pedophiles. They simply don't care about the repercussions of their actions as long as their selfish needs are met.
Of course she did it and the reasons why we might not ever know. The biggest consolation is that she will be treated as a murderer the rest of her life. Sure, she may get a book deal or movie, but that is short lived and money will never ever help her escape the stigma she'll always wear. She can get plastic surgery, change her name, etc but in this case I hope she is never allowed to have any more children. The thing I don't get is the clorofill (sp) and why she would use this to sedate her daughter when there are so many drugs on the market. This part leaves me wondering what her real intentions were. |
[QUOTE=Sachita;
The thing I don't get is the clorofill (sp) and why she would use this to sedate her daughter when there are so many drugs on the market. This part leaves me wondering what her real intentions were.[/QUOTE] Because she thought looking up recipes for chloroform on the internet was easier and less noticeable. She researched the internet how to use chloroform. Began using it to put her daughter to sleep while she partied. One night, she could'nt wake her up and freaked, so she placed her in a garbage bag, placed a heart-shaped sticker on her mouth, and sealed it with duct tape. She then tossed her in a swamp. 30 days later,she reported her missing, and gave a fake story about a Hispanic nanny. At the very least she should have been convicted of manslaughter. |
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