:bowdown:

Thank you. Well-spoken. Both of you. I am genuinely verklempt.

Cheers
Aj

Dapper, Ender... did you see where I, a lesbian feminist woman, pushed back against excluding transwomen? I'm just curious if you saw that part of the dialogue that was going on here? Because one of the things that was important to me, in the wake of the BV/BN split, was that butch women were speaking up, finally about things that had long been festering. Which was an opportunity.

I have no argument with June modding Chazz's comment, but I do have a problem with the suggestion that Chazz leave the site. Chazz is no longer here to read your posts or to engage in discussion, whether it's about transwomen belonging or butch women belonging. That's a loss.

Sadly,
Heart

I must apologize to you (and all, really) as I did a goof by not going to the very start of the thread to read from there (and ALL posts) and stayed with "opening pages." My way bad.

We most certainly do have lesbian transwomen here and I really feel very foolish for not catching this.

As i now have re-read

Kobi/AtLast,

The reason I felt comfortable posing my question/speaking up is b/c I know you both to be women who are not transphobic and care about others' feelings. I really considered you all missed the "once-male" comment.

Kobi, I hear you and do appreciate that the thread had no drama and such and Heart I did see how you did pushed back in a healthy, dialoging way. I would not/did not post when I read about Chazz's comfort in excluding transwomen from MichFest. I know this is to be a safe place, as Kobi said. What put me over the edge was the praising of a respectful discussion, when there were parts that are just simply DAMAGING to a part of your community, lesbian transwomen.

I'm sorry I need to run...I have a plane to catch...no, seriously.

Kobi:

Thank you for explaining your position. You may have noticed that pretty much the *minute* MWMF was invoked, I backed off the conversation and went silent. That is because I *knew* that it was only a matter of time before something was posted where transwomen would be portrayed as 'not really women' or 'not really belonging to the lesbian community'. At that moment, the space--not just this thread but this entire site--became unsafe for me. Now, I don't really expect the world to be a safe space. I would not have made it into middle-age as a black lesbian if I expected the world to welcome me with open arms. I do, however, strongly prefer to be in spaces where I won't be subject to reading things that explicitly state--for reasons entirely beyond your control, you do not belong here. But it goes farther than that. Yesterday, as I wrestled with saying something in response, a question crossed my mind: is there any amount of time or effort a transwoman could spend in the lesbian community that would allow her to not be thought of as an interloper and to be brought into the circle of 'sister'. My gut instinct is that for anyone who uses the term 'once-males' to refer to transgendered women a million years wouldn't be half enough time. I also get the feeling--and I may be wrong--that if a transwoman carried not just her own weight but the weight of the next 10 women around her, those contributions would *still* not be enough.

So what I read was that transwomen had no legitimate place and in that moment, as I said before, this place became deeply 'unsafe'. So why am I still here? Why did I not leave? Because before I was a queer, I was already black. I know unsafe space. I know how to maneuver around unsafe space. My neighborhood was unsafe space--in the way that being the only black kid in your class from kindergarten to sixth grade can be. At some point in between being subjected to the tender mercies of elementary school children picking on the kid who looks most different to the experience of coming out and promptly being told that I was a race traitor (yes, I have had people say that to me) for being queer, I realized that if someone holds a prejudice against me, there is very little I can do to change their mind. I can, however, decide that I will hold my head high, that I will carry myself with dignity and that I will hold to a very high standard of conduct. My logic is that the bigot will still think me low, undeserving or an interloper but I will, in the fullness of time, make that bigot look like a fool. How? By being a shining star. By being honorable, intelligent, erudite, kind, expansive, friendly and hard-working. What could do more damage to any of the myths that people might have about me because I'm black, queer, etc. than to be the kind of woman you could proudly take home to mother?

Years ago, when I came out and first discovered that there were two groups within the queer community--particularly the lesbian community--that were considered once and for all time outside the circle of sisterhood; bisexuals and transwomen. The blatantly racist or anti-Semitic statement had no place and any woman fool enough to utter it in public would have the wrath of Sappho herself visited upon her. But bisexuals could be spoken of in terms of being vectors of disease contaminating what would otherwise have been an ostensibly disease-free lesbian community. At least bisexuals were not thought to be intentionally volunteering to be disease vectors while transwomen were thought to have truly evil intent--although this being the 90s and post-modernism being what it was, no one used the term evil. Rather, it was couched in terms of transwomen having some nebulous, shadowy but nefarious intent to do undermine the lesbian community from within. At the time, I was writing for every gay or lesbian newspaper or magazine that would publish me. I stumbled across a question that was relevant in 1991 and is relevant 20 years later, what are we in this for? By this I mean the Movement for the rights of queer people to live their lives as full citizens with agency. Are we in it because--as I believe--that it is simply wrong for individuals to be discriminated against in either law or custom because of some arbitrary characteristic OR are we in this because such discrimination is happening to *us*. This is a non-trivial difference. If you believe that bigotry and prejudice are wrong then one would hope one would spread that net as far as possible. It goes beyond the discrimination that happens to me, it is the discrimination I make others the target of. If, on the other hand, one believes that the discrimination that happens to one's own group is wrong but not that bigotry or prejudice are generally wrong, then one need not look to the plank in one's own eye. All that matters is that the other person standing on one's foot get the hell off your foot. IF the queer movement is against bigotry or prejudice based upon arbitrary characteristics of gender or sexual orientation, then our movement cannot give much quarter to a form of bigotry that says "I don't care, nor do I have to care, how long ago you transitioned you will always be, in my eyes, whatever your chromosomes say you are". If, on the other hand, we are concerned only with the more limited question of "lesbians and gay men are subject to injustice because they are gay or lesbian" that allows for the community to have a space for bigotry against bisexuals or transsexuals or transgendered people or, for that matter, butches and femmes.

Twenty years ago, I cast my lot in with that part of the community that believed that the discrimination that happens to bisexuals or transsexuals *within* the queer community is no better than discrimination that happens against all queer people. I would have preferred that gender theory were not the vehicle by which transgendered people gained a greater level of acceptance because I think that post-modernism, upon which gender theory is based, is deeply and profoundly broken because it is incoherent. I almost feel guilty at having benefited from gender theory and its ancestor, post-modernism, because I would be quite happy putting the final nail in the coffin of that ideology.

Cheers
Aj

June:

When I was little--probably 12 or around there--I was baking biscuits with my grandmother and I asked her if she hated white people. She was born in 1903 and lived her whole life in the same town in Louisiana (Ruston). If anyone had a reason to hate white people, it was Mama Gus. She looked at me, sat me down and gave me this which, to this day, forms the core of my ethics:

"Baby, we can't hate them back. See, maybe the Klansman just don't know any better. He might not know that black people are also children of God. But you and I know what it's like to be hated. Now, if you do evil out of ignorance, God will forgive that because only He knows everything. But if you do evil because you have seen it, you know it is evil and you choose to do it anyway, that makes you worse than any Klansman. It means you wanted to be evil, even though you know that it hurts real people."

Every time I feel tempted or seduced by hatred--and hating others IS seductive, looking down on others is the easiest mental trick in the world--I remember her words. When I think of Michelle Bachmann, who I have no doubt would happily sign laws that would all but outlaw us, I remember my grandmother's words. I can think her a fool, I can certainly point out that the woman knows slightly more American history than my dog only because my dog can't read, I will absolutely rush to the barricades to defend my nation against the theocracy she wishes to bring but I cannot *hate* her. Oppose, yes. Hate? No.

Cheers
Aj

I have been reading the thread and there have been some great points made. I was put off by some of the remarks earlier about qualifying who was lesbian and it felt exclusionary to me. That's pretty much when I checked out. Also, I certainly am not going to support any lesbian or any organization that attempts to exclude or "other" transwomen.

I am proud to be a lesbian and celebrate our diversity.

Safe space and queer conformity-
 

Hummmm... and are we ready to discuss discrimination and bigotry against butch lesbians of every corner of our community dating or partnering with a lesbian transwoman? Where does the crux of this conversation usually go first- the "once a woman" issue? Are these relationships viewed with the same disdain that I have read in threads (mainly in the dash site) about butch on butch relationships and bi-sexuality?

We have many areas in which there existing a safe space is not felt to be so. hell, there have been times I have felt disdain for having been heterosexual in my life time on these forums.

Kobi, lesbians who are also transwomen should feel safe in a thread on lesbian pride.

Lesbians who are partnered with male identified people should feel welcome in a thread on lesbian pride.

Lesbians who have a different idea of what lesbian pride means than you (for example me) should feel free to share our thoughts on lesbian pride.

Your opinion is one lesbian's opinion. So is mine.

*sigh*

The thing is Kobi, a choice was made to use terminology that was, in fact, transphobic. The phrase "once-men" was erasing of the butch lesbian transwomen that were participating in this thread! The moderation was appropriate. Why are you making it about silencing lesbians overall? That's just counter-productive.

I do have a beef with the fact that months ago when a male-identified butch called lesbians "man-haters," the comment was parsed and explained away, diluted as part of that person's "truth," and lightly moderated, if memory serves.

The rest of the paragraph that was moderated in this thread, about lesbians doing the "heavy lifting," spear-heading the funding and building of domestic violence shelters, could most certainly be called someone's "truth."

So inevitably and defensively I find myself wondering... do trans identities just have more currency at this juncture than lesbian identities? How else to compare the swift modding of a transphobic slur and the support that followed with the lack of moderation of a phobic stereotyping of lesbians?

But beyond the issue of moderating, which is at best an inexact art form, I am feeling, (based in part on a discussion with a very smart femme lesbian), like the whole issue of "re-claiming" lesbian pride has a whiff of "othering" about it. Like we are taking something back from someone who isn't really "one of us." In light of what happened -- that feels off to me. I don't want to participate in that. I'm not interested in pure feminism or pure lesbianism for that matter. Hell, there are plenty of reasons why I am quite impure myself.

I'm down with lesbian pride, but if it means that a transwomen who is a lesbian isn't fully included in this space, then like MWMF, I'm out.

Heart

So, in order for lesbians like you to be heard, to be validated, it was necessary for someone to be able to use a term that was rather bigoted. Look, if the only way that lesbians like you can feel that this is your space and that your concerns are being addressed, is for women like me to have to just put up with terms like 'once-male' being thrown around without challenge, then okay. Okay, here, doesn't mean I'm going away. It does mean that that is a piece of information that is useful to have and I'm glad I now know.

I am not arguing--and my presence here does not militate for--not airing issues that need to be aired. Yet, I have two questions for you:

1) If, instead of saying something about transwomen, the statement had been that black women--for whatever reason--had no legitimate place within lesbian community and had people spoken up against it, would you still feel that lesbians like you had been silenced? If not, why not? Why is it that, if all you knew was that I'm a black lesbian, it would be unacceptable to say that 'women like that' (who are not, after all, lesbians like you) are not legitimately apart of this community but since it is transwomen, that is in bounds?

2) Is there any amount of time, any amount of effort, any action whatsoever that would EVER earn a transwoman the right--in your eyes--to legitimately claim a seat at the table?

I, too, was enjoying the conversation right up until the point where it became clear that transwomen--in the eyes of some--aren't woman enough to deserve to call themselves lesbian. At that point, I had a decision to make; do I risk starting WW III or do I just let someone else speak up and see what happens. I chose the latter path.

I think these issues are important. I think they need to be discussed. I don't, however, think they need to be discussed at the cost of letting statements of the "transwomen, you are not welcome here". If some transwoman did X, where X is some horrible thing, then she should have to answer for that. Not because she is a transwoman, but because she did some act that was unacceptable. Being trans should not make one subject to a lighter standard or a heavier standard but the same standard, as much as is possible. But that's not what was being put forth. What was being put forth was the idea that transwomen qua transwomen are not, cannot and should not be welcome in lesbian community. Not actions, simply the fact that the woman in question has a Y chromosome and that's enough.

This statement is not meant to be silencing, nor is it meant to be putting lesbians like you in their place. I am no apologist for patriarchy. I feel that my years in this community--and by this community I mean the lesbian community--have earned me a place at the table. I earned it at the Whiptail Lizard Lounge in San Francisco, where I spent two years volunteering every weekend. I earned it going around the Bay Area in the mid-nineties, when the Internet was just starting to come to public consciousness and either wiring up organizations that helped women, building their web sites, or training women how to use computers. It was earned teaching classes at a DV shelter so women could use the web to find safe, permanent housing for themselves and their children. It was earned by doing *precisely* the opposite of what Chazz said transwomen did. Instead of showing up and saying "seat me", I showed up, asked permission to enter, and then said "how can I help". When I came out as trans on this board last year, I talked about asking whether or not women like me were welcome at the Whiptail Lizard Lounge. I got blasted because people said I shouldn't have had to ask for permission and maybe they were right. But I had read my feminist theory, I knew about male privilege and I wasn't about to be one of those transwomen who pretended that since we had been at war with our own bodies since childhood, we could pretend that male privilege never had anything to do with us. Instead, I intuitively grasped that the way to approach things was to show up, be useful, live my feminism, and I would gain acceptance. It worked spectacularly and that attitude has served me well for 22 years. It serves me well to this day.

To this day, I still try to give more than I take from the lesbian community because I like the feeling of being a sister who, when the hard work needs to be done, is right up at the front, painting the walls, or dumping the trash, or doing whatever needs doing whether it is pleasant or easy or not. That, to me, is part and parcel of being a sister.

This isn't an apologia nor is it asking for your acceptance. I am too old and too strong to need the acceptance of anyone else. It is a statement that regardless of what others might think, I AM a strong black woman and I AM a lesbian who is proud to be a lesbian. I will never apologize for that nor will I ever apologize for standing up for myself. I will also not apologize for being grateful that people stood up and spoke for women who might otherwise not have been spoken for.

In sisterly spirit
Aj

June,

I have no issue with the moderation. It was necessary. It was a derogatory term. I expect stuff like this to be moderated.

What I also expect is, it was moderated. To have Dapper and Ender come in and add fuel to the fire, to me, was the patriarchy coming in to silence and chastise the lesbians. It was unnecessary except to send a message.

I also expect moderations to be fair across the board and they are not. Trans issues and racial issues are moderated with a very heavy hand. I have no problem with that either. But, I expect when lesbian issues crop up or female issues, they will be given the same weight and the same forcefulness. In my opinion they are not.

I am not going to be dragged into a debate about the definition of a lesbian. Lesbian connotates something very specific, very particular and very unmistakeable. I havent seen any dictionary change it over the last 40 years.

And this is not about "othering". It is about being "othered". This about voicing a right to exist along side others on an equal par. And it is about having the right to voice the right to exist and have it validated. It is about speaking to the truth of feeling marginalized. From where I stand, only lesbians, like me, have to sit here and defend themselves in discussions like this. No other id has to defend itself. Why do I?

Lesbian has become a huge, widespread thing to basically mean anything other than male. That, to me, diminishes me and my identity. Yet, I am not supposed to be offended by this or even speak to it. But, I do have to defend it....over and over and over.

I have deliberately not used the volatile word "censorship". And I will continue to avoid it.

Again, the issues are being swept under the rug while we focus on terminology and bigotry.

Aj,

I have a great deal of respect for you.

I am dismayed to learn you and others saw something going on in this thread that I didnt. And rather than speak to it, even privately, you and others decided to sit back and see what happened. And, now, after the fact, you and others almost seem to be patting yourselves on the back for having knowledge others didnt. You sat back and did nothing but it is ok to chastize others after the fact?

Wow. Kind of a throw back to women against women days of the old feminism.

I, of course, feel you set me and this thread up. And that feels pretty shitty. Not surprising but still feels shitty.

And I am getting getting really tired of taking the brunt of this. I did not say a freakin thing about transwomen but the entire thing is getting dumped on me. I didnt see it. I didnt understand the implications of it.

I am happy to own my shit. I anxiously await the day others begin owning theirs.

Oh btw, thanks to those "friends" of mine who had the need to distance themselves. What a powerful message that sends along.

Kobi - Aj had just read herself termed as a "once-man" yet you think she owed YOU something? She wasn't setting you up by withdrawing, she was protecting herself - which she has every right to do. Taking the victim position here really stretches the limits of credulity.

Nothing is being dumped on you, no one is holding you solely accountable for this thread, or what happened in it, but it's also nobody else's fault or responsibility that you didn't see something or understand it. Least of all Aj.

Kobi:

What was I supposed to say? I didn't say anything because I was not about to make Chazz correct. Not giving them that satisfaction. I've walked into that trap enough times to know what the snare line looks like. The term 'once males' gets thrown out, I object loudly about it and I'm throwing about male privilege. I defend myself, I'm doing it wrong. I don't defend myself, I'm doing it wrong. I didn't post initially because I don't like to post when I'm upset and seeing 'once males' was upsetting. I am not putting this on you. I don't blame people for things they did not do--I don't do it because I have spent 45 walking this Earth, carrying the weight of other people's actions on my back. If I had a dollar for every time someone had asked me why so many blacks are on welfare, I'd make Warren Buffet, George Soros and Oprah *combined* look like paupers. So I don't hold you responsible for the words that others used.

Set you up, how? Precisely how could I possibly have set you up in this thread? I am genuinely mystified by that accusation. Now, I admit, I am not the queen of social graces so there are things I do that I miss but here, I'm not sure how I could possibly have set you up. I participated on this thread like I do on other threads. What could I have done differently where you would not have been set up?

When you say "having knowledge others didn't" do you mean the knowledge I'm a transwoman? Look, up until about a year ago NO ONE on this board knew. I didn't say anything, because I didn't think it relevant, until someone said something that I found sexist and in order to blunt the accusation of transphobia when I called them out on it, I disclosed that I was a transwoman so the *last* accusation that could reasonably be leveled at me was that I held bigoted attitudes about transgendered people. I didn't put it out there on this thread because, as a general rule, I don't announce my being transgendered. There was certainly no way in hell, I was going to just introduce that into the conversation unless it became necessary to do so. My heuristic, another one that has served me well--although it puts me at odds with many in the trans community, FTM and MTF alike--is that people get to know either when I choose to let them know or if they are in the circle of people who need or have a right to know. Need or right to know is if you are my doctor, my therapist, or someone I want to date. Right to know is if you are someone I want to date. Everyone else, I disclose in the manner of my choosing. So I was not about to come in here and open up with "hi, before we get into the meat of this discussion, I'm a transwoman, just so you know".

Of all the things I'm doing, patting myself on the back is pretty well near the bottom of the list. Keeping myself calm and reminding myself that this is my community too? Yes, I'm doing that. Reminding myself that no one can take away the last two decades of my life and the peace I've found in my body? Yes, there's a bit of that going on as well. Second-guessing myself? Plenty of that as well. Keeping my emotions in check so every word I type is carefully thought out? Absolutely! But self-congratulations? No, not even in the same zip code as to what is going on with me right now. I see nothing to congratulate at any rate. I feel gratitude, but not congratulatory.

To me, every iteration of this discussion in the community--a discussion that has gone on since *at least* 1973--is a loss for us all. I see nothing for anyone to feel congratulatory for.

Cheers
Aj

Aj,

I did not know your history. I appreciate you sharing this.

I also did not know what "once man" or "WBW" meant. There is a presumption that people should know this stuff. I dont. I was having a hard enough time figuring out the jist of posts. Thus, underlying innuendo flew right past me. I am still going back over posts trying to understand.

It seems to me, if you see something derogatory going on, you either speak to it publicly or at least privately. It is never safe to assume someone sees something or understands it or knows the implications of it. To do so is a disservice to oneself and to others.

And, to me, one does not need to use a 2x4 or a baseball bat to make a point.

I do, however, understand that one is often put in a no win situation and can sympathize with this without any problem whatsoever.

WOW- no one corrected my error- it is "once a man" not once a woman. This gets thrown out a lot at butches that relate/date transwomen- and a whole lot of "not a real lesbian" slights.

It has always appeared to me that transwomen do not feel comfortable in our community as either butch or femme identified. The only thread I recall (but I certainly have not read/viewed them all) that focused on transwomen in the B-F dynamic was one in dash site. And it was derogatory- it was about why transwomen were even on the site!! This was over 3 years ago.

Further than that, if you see something problematic and don't report it, then ask yourself why you are waiting on someone else to handle it.

You have a voice as an adult. Use it. Use it respectfully, but use it.

There are a couple of things I need to say, mostly because I can't get it out of my head and partly because I'm hoarse from saying "NUH UHHH" at my screen. :)

First, (and Kobi, this isn't meant to pick on you so please don't take it that way), I want to clarify how and why the "Lesbian Zone" came into creation on this site. It actually was out of multiple discussions but mostly because AtLast wouldn't let it go (wink at you, Atlast, you know I adore your tenacity!). My recollection wasn't that there was a throng of angry Lesbians demanding it, it was that we had a few folks who thought it would feel more validating so I begrudgingly implemented it.
The "begrudgingly" part is still there. Vehemently.
I need to talk about that or my head might explode.
I have said 100 times that a Lesbian zone on this website is redundant. To make a "zone within a zone" on a website where the core/essence/foundation is Lesbian is redundant and has bothered me since day one.
Not saying that I haven't found it to be super delightful at times, but it has pushed some buttons for me that I have been very apprehensive to talk about. Until now.

My "begrudging" implementation of the "Lesbian" zone is not because I'm an agent of the Patriarchy and am wanting to deny the voices of Lesbians. It's because I was and am super fearful of creating a space that has the HUGE potential to become militant and separatist and unwelcoming to Transwomen, Transmen, and even BUTCHES based on my own experiences as an out Lesbian of 20 years.

Is that Lesbian-phobic? Remember, I'm a Lesbian.

That is me, as a Lesbian, acknowledging that we as Lesbians have the ability to fence ourselves into tight spaces based on identity, politics, and gender theory even if we, as Lesbians, are often super pissed off when someone who is not identified as a Lesbian talks openly about this.

There have been instances of denial on this very site where someone who identifies as Lesbian tries to paint this rosy picture of Lesbian history where no instance of misandry, identity-fencing, presentation-fencing, separatism, or militancy has ever existed and the very idea of mentioning a diametrically opposed experience is enough to invoke cries of "unsafe!" or "anti-Lesbian!" or worse, the "Patriarchy".

Well guess what, I'm not the fucking Patriarchy. I'm a Lesbian and I have witnessed and been part of it. And I'd venture to guess that the vast majority, if not all of us, have experienced or contributed to it in one form or another at some point in our Lesbian lives.

To deny that does not do us any service. In fact, it's privileged and inauthentic.

Let a Transman talk about his experience of growing up in a Lesbian commune, identified as a Lesbian, and make a statement like "had a I been like most Lesbians 30 years ago, I would have hated him based on his gender" and we'll be talking about it a year later.
We'll also say that because one Transman made that statement that the entire BFP experience is anti-Lesbian.
Let the Mods and myself say "We could have done that better" and we'll talk about how we're quick to call out racism and transphobia but we let anti-Lesbian sentiment slide on some premise of Patriarchal adaptation.
Even if we're Lesbians.
Even if the Transman in question comes back to clarify the context.
Even if he further clarifies that he was talking about the "Lesbians he knew".
Even if he's no longer a member of this site.
Even if it was said in the Red Zone where we have said multiple times we DO NOT MODERATE.
Even if we create a Lesbian zone, add language in multiple places to our TOS, and do our best to tap that shit.

Do I sound butthurt and defensive? I am.

I'm a Lesbian who was called "anti Lesbian" by other Lesbians. I took that shit hard and I take it hard now when, a year later, we are still talking about it.

I felt that because it was a Transman making the comment, his history of living as a Lesbian (which he spoke heartfully about) was erased and that his head would need to be affixed to a stick to satisfy that we had taken the issue seriously.

I felt that there was some serious denial going on about the militancy that can happen in Feminist and Lesbian circles. I'm a Lesbian and I can acknowledge it. But if a Transman even alludes to it, it's seen as Lesbian-bashing. What is that about?

We have this space and someone makes a shitty comment about Transwomen.
We had the Red Zone and someone made a shitty comment about Lesbians.
I keep rolling it over in my head how speaking about something you actually experienced (even if the filter is fucked up) is NOT. THE. SAME. as invoking hurtful and highly-insensitive terminology such as "once men" in a "Lesbian Zone" where Transwomen have experienced historical marginalization.

I am a Lesbian and I support my Lesbian sisters. ALL of them. And that means that I hold in my memory the echos of all of the MWMF's where Transwomen were treated like dogs outside the gates. That means that I don't sweep that shit under the rug or pretend like that very same separatist thinking doesn't STILL exist. Because it does.

We are all responsible for this space. Not just this zone, but this site. My hope was that we'd all be invested in sharing our experiences with one another and learning from one another.
One of the things that triggers me about having separate Lesbian space on a Lesbian site is that it pushes so many of my personal buttons about identity fencing. It becomes easy to discount voices as "Patriarchy" even if those same voice share our history.

I think we can celebrate our shared Lesbian herstory and listen to the voices of those who do share, will share, and have shared that path, even if those voices are now deeper.

Thank your for all your posts, Aj. Like Kobi, I missed 'once male' altogether. I didn't understand the reference, and giddy with the joy of FINALLY reading posts by and for lesbian feminist butch-femme women, instead of reading posts about how far butches can push themselves towards maleness on the spectrum(sic), I didn't bother to sort out the meaning of the term.

I've been excited about a seeming resurgence in lesbian pride. As much as I wish we were not talking about the acceptance of transwomen in our community instead of lesbian pride, clearly we're not done yet.

Your post has made me thoughtful about my own history. I have a baaad history with men. I've been the object of a lifetime of very invasive, not to mention criminal behaviour. The reason I'm far more wary of men, even though I've also been financially and sexually abused by a woman, is that my issues with men are current and ongoing. I may be pushing 50, but they still sniff up my butt like a pack of dogs. No, there's nothing flattering about it. I would be a fool and a victim if I didn't maintain a VERY guarded posture with most men. For me, safety is relative and the safest space is women's space. Like many feminists of my era, I treasure and guard women's space because it's very meaningful to me.

This is relevant because many lesbians have felt, just as you pointed out, that transwomen are really men who have come to invade women's space. I certainly felt that way for a long time. A close friend, A, changed that view. She's a woman. Period. I don't care that A has a long history as a man prior to her transition. Like you, she holds her head high, carries herself with dignity, and holds herself to a very high standard of conduct. I'm quite certain that she did that before she transitioned, too.

The part that's problematic is that I've met many transwoman who do not. So has A. The half dozen transwomen I knew before I met A had been fully socialised as men, and it showed. They fulfilled all my worst expectations by using typically male power grabs in meetings of our women's groups. Some felt that the loudest voice always prevails. One bullied and abused her tiny wife. One was very adept at conspicuously throwing her money around with the expectation that it would purchase agreement. Yes, I know that women sometimes do these things. I'm talking about people who do these things BECAUSE it's part of their socialised male behaviour patterns. Did these transwomen look like invading men to me? You bet.

My good friend A actually never blamed me for those feelings when I confessed them to her. She told me that she's been equally horrified by male socialised behaviours she sees some transwomen exhibiting, and she worries that others will judge her based on their poor behaviour. She calls it "privilege in a dress".

As far as I know, here in NYC my friend is no longer in danger of being disrespected or made to feel unwelcome in any part of our communities. MWMF is the only event from which she's excluded. I've observed her getting the fish-eye in straight settings, but according to her she hasn't felt or heard any anti-trans actions or words directed towards her from anyone in our LGBT, BDSM, or women's communities. Ironically, she has been vilified by other trans people because of her views about what it means to be a woman. My friend can happily come and go to women's groups and events in safety because there's been such a strong push towards trans acceptance here in NYC.

As Aj wrote, the ticket to that acceptance has been current gender theory. The part that both A and I find mind boggling is that current gender theory is erasing of women, lesbians, and our lesbian feminist history. We both feel strongly that there's a difference between women and men, but that makes us hopeless dinosaurs. Oh, and it makes us transphobes, too. She has been called a transphobe and a token by women who have never been trans. True story. Out of respect for A's wishes I didn't kick anyone's ass, but I'm still seething about it.

Because I need safe space, because I'm a lesbian and a feminist, because I care about our culture and our hard-won space, I'll continue to guard it. That means that when I encounter men claiming to be women I'll question their presence in my women's groups. (A very tall and large man who wore the same clothes he always did, went to the same barber he always did, and changed NOT ONE SINGLE THING about himself to signal to the world that he might be trans, or anything other than a man, while claiming that he felt like a woman. He demanded access and got it. A was chagrined, as was I.) I don't want male crossdressers, who are now claiming to be trans, at my women's sex parties. (Ask me how I felt about the crossdresser with his otherwise naked dick tied up in a bow, who had to get in my face while I was in a compromised position at a women's play party last year.)

The reason that the man who claimed to be a woman could do so is because current gender theory tells him that he's any gender he wakes up feeling on any given day. He maintained that he was a woman if he said he was one, and no hormones, surgery, or changes in any part of his outward body or dress were necessary for him to have access to women's space. That really pissed me off.

The reason that the very male crossdresser who came to the women's play party was allowed to remain was because he said he was trans. The party organisor is a committed trans advocate, and she was pretty irritated by this man's presence. Even though she felt strongly that he didn't belong, she told me that she feared backlash from the trans community for excluding anyone who said he was trans. That really pissed me off, too.

I want my safety to be as important as the safety of people with penises. Why is that so hard?

i thought the Daryn thing was annoying. i appreciate that the mods acknowledge they could have handled it better. He also made a snipe on another thread about Japanese lesbian feminists or something like that. Maybe he was angry after the big reaction he got. But i didn't see his participation as particularly well-intentioned.

i also think that whether it crops up frequently on this site or not, there is a lot of lesbian bashing still common in our community. i have heard it. i get way tired of it. And sometimes you know what someone is saying even if they stop short of saying something that one could report.

That said, i think this thread has bordered on transphobia off and on throughout. i tried to make that point, but was every so gently shown the door. Maybe i didn't make it well.

Talking about pure feminism is a dangerous discourse. It suggests an other, an impure feminism (gender theory?). Also talking about what it used to be like to be a lesbian compared to now suggests to me that people feel displaced, unrecognized, not valued for their contributions. The context of the Butch Voices controversy makes it pretty clear who the other is, the other whose voice is supposedly heard and valued more. Framing the conversation this way requires that it be understood as either-or, as a conflict.

Reclaiming from whom? is the question.

As i said to someone in PM, even the great gender outlaw posts seem to be trying to reclaim a status that was lost or has lost cache. If we are saying we were the original badasses, we're clearly also talking about who is now considered to be a gender outlaw. i am just saying that there has been an invisible other present throughout, and to my mind, it is at least in part the transperson.

Interesting that instead of a transman, the eruption of bigotry was that older anxiety, the presence of transwomen in our communities.

i am going to be offline for a couple of days. i have a new smart phone that should allow me to see stuff, but i don't know if i can use it well enough yet.

Medusa I don't think you are an agent of the patriarchy and I do think you are supportive of lesbians, but I super bummed that you think having a Lesbian Zone is going to create a "militant, separatist and unwelcoming" space for those who don't i.d. as lesbians.

There are lesbians calling for more inclusive space, there are lesbians speaking out against transphobia, there are lesbians being supportive across the gender spectrum. I get that lesbians can post in any thread from 'What's For Dinner" to Racism to Gender theory threads. I also see a clear need for lesbian visibility and don't get why having a Lesbian Zone would be more potentially divisive than say a Trans Zone or Butch Zone or Femme Zone. I am seriously bummed.

I spoke out in this thread about things that I saw as exclusionary, I spoke out against the transphobia. I am not coming from a "purist" or separatist state at all.

Wait a minute.

Let's be clear. I did not say the zone *is* going to create a separatist environment.

"Is" is an action verb and would mean that I think that is occurring right now. I don't.

I said "has the potential to create". That is me expressing my own personal fears. Me expressing a fear is very different than labeling something as "this is occurring as we speak".

I'm sorry if that wasn't more clear.

I have read and posted in this zone multiple times. It has existed on this site for well over a year. None of the conversations here have ever been redirected, renamed, or moved. My support of this zone is clear given that it scares me but that I work to overcome that fear by participating in and digesting the discussions here that sometime make me cringe or want to pull my hair out (and that isn't specific to the LZ, it has happened in multiple threads and zones on these forums).

I'll say it again: I support the Lesbian Zone.

I have a confession to make.


I need to thank everyone who stood up and said "you are excluding your transfeminine sisters".

I consider myself a huge trans ally and activist. I don't want to quantify my contributions, but I do a lot of work in the field with organized groups, as well as helping individuals who are in my life as friends, partners of friends, etc.

I never stopped to think about transgendered lesbians in this discussion, and my privilege as a cisgendered woman blinded me to them. I am sorry to all of the women I inadvertently excluded because of that. This has been a giant kick in the pants that I needed.

Now I am stuck in a dilemma. I do not want to "sweep it under the rug", but I am terribly frustrated because I've just recognized this massive gap in my support and don't know how to fix it. I don't want to have had this epiphany and do nothing with it.

There are a lot of ruffled feathers going on here, and I think maybe I'm not the only one who is a little ashamed at not seeing something happening, or not speaking up, or whatever it is that is causing such discomfort. I hope we can all come full circle and get back to supporting each other.




Also, to all of you talking about current gender theory, I'm a student of that new school and i support it wholeheartedly. That being said, I agree that there are issues that arise when no clear cut boundary lines are drawn. I feel it's very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. This causes even MORE frustration for me, which tends to make me withdraw from the conversation and I'm sorry for that. I just don't do well with confrontation and the passion on the threads lately has been off-putting and frightening to me. I don't want to get caught in the crosshairs.

Medusa, I put potentially divisive in my second paragraph, I neglected to do so in my first paragraph. I still don't understand your take, but I will just try to chill.

Angie,

I appreciate you sharing this. I had asked repeatedly early on what was so threatening about lesbians, like me, having a space like this thread was meant to be. More and more pieces of the puzzle are starting to fit together.

I think I have distanced myself from the anger and the hurt caused by these words to the point where I can now address this in a respectful manner. My hope is that by doing so, a dialogue can develop to address some stuff. It is not to make your life difficult. Nor mine. Trust me, I would much rather be sailing the Atlantic today taking my chances on being lunch meat for the great white sharks than doing this. But. it's important. So here I am.

I apologize for the format here. It wouldnt let me multiquote, so I have to cut and paste.

And, let me add, to respond to some of your points, I have to deal with things like the patriarchy. I want to be clear I am not ranking on the transmen here. These are patriarchal society issues.

You said: I have said 100 times that a Lesbian zone on this website is redundant. To make a "zone within a zone" on a website where the core/essence/foundation is Lesbian is redundant and has bothered me since day one.

Perspective is everything. Your intent is clear. The fact that lesbians kept pushing for their own zone indicates that their experience wasnt matching your intent. The fact that it keeps cropping up is probably as annoying for you to hear as it is for me to have to speak to it.

Sometimes when things keep coming up over and over, we have to ask why. We have to put our own stuff aside, and look at something with a different set of eyes and ears. If I didnt have faith in you to be able and willing to do this, I wouldnt even bother writing this. But I do. And, I know if I can put my shit aside and begin to see racism in a different light, and grapple with trans issues that I am beginning to understand, I know this can be done as well.

You said: "My "begrudging" implementation of the "Lesbian" zone is not because I'm an agent of the Patriarchy and am wanting to deny the voices of Lesbians. It's because I was and am super fearful of creating a space that has the HUGE potential to become militant and separatist and unwelcoming to Transwomen, Transmen, and even BUTCHES based on my own experiences as an out Lesbian of 20 years." Is that Lesbian-phobic? Remember, I'm a Lesbian.

First off, if I was 30 years younger, the thought of being seen as a potentially dangerous, militant, separatist kind of thing would be invigorating and kind of sexy. At my stage of life, the biggest threat I pose is the loss of bladder control when laughing.

Seriously tho, I understand your fear. Once started, some things are difficult to control. But, I dont and I havent heard anyone else say anything like we must overcome, revolt, protest, and other such stuff energy depleting stuff. I am saying and hearing others say, we have issues. We want to be heard in a way that we feel heard, understood, appreciated for the unique people we are amongst other unique people. We want our issues given the same weight as others issues are. If we felt this was happening, I doubt it would keep coming up over and over.

You are not lesbian-phobic. But, we both know queer folk can be homophobic and women can be misogynistic and sexist. Belonging to the group doesnt always stop the dynamic from occuring.

From my perspective, what I see happening is what is called overcompensation. This is defined as a defense mechanism that conceals ones undesirable shortcomings by exaggerating desirable behaviors. It is understandable. In this case, one is representing and working to create a community of diverse peoples who have been and continue to oppressed. It is hard to find a balance and to serve everyone equally. I understand the fear and apprehension. I even understand the overcompensation.

The fact that people have been addressing or trying to address what is seen as an inequity of sorts, means they are experiencing a different reality. It doesnt make their reality any less real or any less pertinent. When we have stuff going on like was/is occuring at BV, when we have lesbians saying their ids are being hijacked, when we have lesbians saying they are feeling marginalized, like guests in their own community, and like there is a push to make them extinct.....that is or should be seen as very powerful stuff. And the fact that these feelings are not the result of what is going on out there but from what is going on within our own umbrella community, should be a HUGE red flag for every single member of this community. And it is not just butches. We have femmes saying they have issues as well.

And, there have been supportive allies here as well saying yeah, I see that. So on the reality check scale, I know what I am seeing and feeling is not a figment of my imagination. It is a reality.

To remain silent, is to be untrue to oneself. To speak up is to be self respecting, self advocating, and to be put under a microscope at the same time. It is an incredibly uncomfortable reality for me. And, if it wasnt important, I sure as heck wouldnt invite this drama, the stress it provokes, the anger it provokes and the pain it provokes into my life. It IS or should be important to this site, this community, and ALL the people who use it.

One of the things that triggers me about having separate Lesbian space on a Lesbian site is that it pushes so many of my personal buttons about identity fencing. It becomes easy to discount voices as "Patriarchy" even if those same voice share our history.

I think we can celebrate our shared Lesbian herstory and listen to the voices of those who do share, will share, and have shared that path, even if those voices are now deeper.

With all due respect Angie, we disagree on a very pertinent issue here. We have a mixed group of people here. We have males and we have females. To say that patriarchal issues are not present here would be untrue. We have women speaking to sexism, we have women speaking to male privilege, we have a transmen thread about male privilege, we have the BV stuff. It is wasn't here, there would be no reason for these topics or discussions to be had. We wouldn't ask POC to ignore racism nor would we ask transperson to ignore transphobia. So, why would we ask women to ignore the manifestations they see of sexism and misogyny and lesbians to ignore what looks like and feels like homophobia?

We don't want to sanitize the negative aspects of the women's movement and how we discriminated against groups of our own people. We don't want to sanitize the issues of how lesbians, like me, were oppressive to other groups in gay rights. We don't want to sanitize history. I hear you. I agree with you. Then, we shouldn't want to sanitize the patriarchy on the grounds of dna profiles either. That's not transphobia. That's applied logic.

From my perspective, we shouldn't be trying to sanitize the present day stuff either. It sucks the big one and its ugly. But, should that mean we don't step out of our comfort zones and deal with it head on? Does it mean we have to sweep it under the rug and hope it will go away? Does it have to mean people cant discuss things that impact them on very deep levels because it pushes our own buttons? I have more faith in us than to believe that needs to be the case.

You started this site for a reason. And you had a vision for how you wanted it to be. It's a good site. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think so. But, we cant stick our collective heads in the sand ad infinitum. It might work for a while, but somewhere another BV is going to be brewing, and it will come back to smack us in the face again. Life is funny that way.

Not dealing with stuff creates a lot more, slightly below the surface, resentment. That resentment makes it very hard to be open to listening to others when you (generic you) feel others aren't listening to you. Resentment breeds anger. Anger breeds hatred. Hatred makes our lives miserable.

I truly believe in the vision you have. It is a good vision that can benefit a great many people. There is stuff maybe you didn't think would come into play when you started it. But, like it or not, it found its way to your doorstep. And you don't have to do it alone. This is a community. And it is a community that is no stranger to oppression, to opposition, to controversy, to struggle, to muddling its way thru to the other side. And when we get there, we are wiser, stronger, more respectful of the struggles of one another, more peaceful and more harmonious.

We can make that happen, if we want to, if it is important to us, if we understand that it benefits all of us. Cuz if there is one thing our collective histories/herstories should have taught us, is when one of us hurts, we all feel the pain. When one of us gets cut, we all bleed. When one of us gets pushed around or pushed aside, it could happen to us as well.

The process of getting stuff in the open isnt likely to be pretty. But, it can be done respecfully I think. People do have to be able to say what they need to say and how it makes them feel. It might sting sometimes but others have said worse to us and about us in hatred and out of fear.

Being human, it isnt going to be a smooth and flawless undertaking. Mistakes will be made. Errors in judgement, a poor choice of words, and stuff is likely to happen. We dont need a 2x4 or a baseball bat to address it, for the most part. Paying closer attention and a heads up would be nice tho.

To me, even tho we will likely never know the entire story of what happened over at BV, we have seen what happened as a result of people feeling unheard. Is splintering the answer? Can something new and never tried before be created? Does it have to be one way or the other? I dont have the answers or an agenda for where something should go. What I do know is not talking about it isnt the answer.

The question that should be on the table is do we want to deal with it or do we want to lift the rug and get a broom again?

I have to say I agree with quite a bit of what Kobi is saying- and I am not shy about disagreeing with her.

Why do many lesbians keeping asking for a Lesbian Zone or wanting a Lesbian Zone if it is completely redundant? I think lesbians have spoken to some of those desires to those who read the threads.

Why are lesbians so suspect?

I think women need to be a hell of a lot more militant than they are now in this world for us to finally get somewhere.

There are lesbians that are transphobic, there are transmen who are misogynist, there are people of every gender persuasion that are bigots. I think it's great that we have a Trans Zone, but I have seen things written there that I didn't care for. Why is it the Lesbian Zone that is questioned and disparaged? Why is it the Lesbian Zone in particular seen as having HUGE potential for being unwelcoming?

Again why are lesbians in particular so suspect?

Why are lesbian stereotypes so difficult for people to distinguish between what are supposedly people's personal truths, when other isms seem to be more recognizable as perpetuating stereotypes? Just a few of the questions that I have.

Edit: And to be clear the Lesbian Zone keeps getting questioned over and over again. My response is not just to one post made by Medusa.

My main reason for requesting a specific zone for lesbianism (which I know Angie knows) was due to it being a sexual minority and to help educate members about lesbian-phobic attitudes. Other sexual minorities such as BDSM had a zone, so it seemed appropriate for there to be a lesbian zone. Although a part of me understands the "redundancy" factor in theory, not all members are lesbian, just as not all members are trans, non-trans, etc. Since I joined online B-F sites, I have noticed lesbian-phobic attitudes.

I would not condone the use of the lesbian zone as a vehicle for any kind of bigotry against any other group or population represented on the site or to serve as a wedge between any of the populations that call the Planet home. Nor rallying some kind of divide among us. That would run contrary to the entire mission of the site which, I truly believe has the spirit of consciousness and awareness at its heart (lesbian-phobic remarks are also covered in the site's TOS and can be grounds for moderation). Having a specific lesbian zone in which the recognition of lesbianism as a sexual minority (which it is in all literature in the study of human sexual behavior) that can be stereotyped negatively and has resulted in discrimination on the Planet is much appreciated by lesbian members. And no zone represented here should ever promote division among all of the groups that make up this community.

Personally, I feel like there is a lot of effort on the Planet to promote space for all of us to be represented fairly. I, too, have read things in other zones that I felt were negative toward other groups here, even bigoted- that is what the report button is for.

I appreciate having this zone, but if comments were made that were transphobic, racist, etc., I would report the posts the same as I would in any other zone.

I hope this doesn't sound too clinical or stiff- that isn't my intent- I'm trying to show appreciation, explain why I (and others) asked for a lesbian zone in which our issues could be addressed in the context of a sexual minority and also state that I don't want it to ever be used for divisive agendas. LOL… and I know I have been redundant!! Sorry, its late!

Hi Kobi-

lesbianism as sexual minority is about it being part of sexual minority (status) curriculum in our colleges and universities and studied in terms of discrimination. Lesbians are part of a minority group that has (like others) been discrininated against as well as been subjected to hate crimes.

I have been both raped and physically beaten up by multi-offenders in my life as a lesbian as well as been subjected to unfair employment practices as many other lesbians have. How often are our trans members called lesbos, dykes, etc. when victims of a hate crime? They are often perceived to be lesbian... no matter their actual gender status.

It is part of our unfortunate array of "Isms" in our society. Does this help?

It's hard because certain things have been placed off limits for discussion by trans/gender ideologues.

Trans/gender canon dictates there are only two options: transphobe or transphile (anything in between qualifies for the former).... Questioning or challenging trans/gender ideology or behavior without genuflecting, toe dancing, mincing words or straddling gets you pegged a transphobe (hater/bigot). Your friend A, CherylNYC, must not have genuflected deep enough.

I could argue that my questioning, even criticizing, trans/gender ideology/behavior is not motivated by hate, but arguing sacred canon with ideologues, or fundamentalists, is never fruitful. They may preach: “Hate the sin, not the sinner”, but they rarely practice it…. More importantly, arguing would be me lending credence to a false accusation. A false accusation that is typically used by trans/gender ideologues to derail conversations and discredit lesbians/Feminists who do not embrace trans/gender ideology. So, I’ll just shrug and say: “Your” canon hurts women who share my sensibilities. That doesn’t automatically qualify “you” as a lesbianphobe in my book, but I could be persuaded.

Part of the reason this thread was created – at least so I was led to believe – was because many lesbians feel minimized, marginalized, invisiblized and their identities cannibalized. It may hurt to hear that, it may offend your ideological sensibilities. It may make you want to kick me to the curb - you can do that, you have the power - but, in so doing, you’re ignoring the perennial elephant in the room. The one that is at the core of the divisiveness in the LGBTQ community of which there is much.

How can anyone expect to have a meaningful, reality based conversation about Lesbian Pride when only one ideology is allowed to be voiced? (A nod to Heart who is, in her way, trying to bridge the ideological divide.)

What do some of you think is really at the core of the BV debacle? Bad nomenclature? Bad judgment? A failed attempt at being all inclusive? Good intentions gone awry?

It's about: I D E O L O G Y

You can debate BV's nonprofit status and financial statements till the cows do what they do, but some of us view the BV hierarchy as staging an ideological takeover. The next, inevitable slip, slide down the trans/gender ideological continuum; a trip many of us do not want to take. Based on the conversations I’ve been having with other lesbians about this thread, many see it as I do - one more exercise (perhaps unconscious, maybe and sometimes) in imposing trans/gender ideology on everyone in the community.

This is what it comes down to…. Is questioning trans/gender ideology, politics and behavior off the table? If not, who gets to set the parameters of that discussion - trans/gender ideologues? If the answer is a dogma laden, qualified “YES”, then the L in the LGBTQ panoply is no longer inclusive or meaningful. Let's just be honest and reality based about it.

:vigil:

Chazz, this response is directed solely in reference to the above post you made. However, I am hopeful that if I have misinterpreted you that someone will take it upon themselves to try and explain your meaning to me as I fear you and I have incredibly different styles of communicating and will be unable to share ideas in a way that doesn't ruffle feathers.

Is everything always so black and white with you? I see an awful lot of generalization, broad characterization, and "many people agree with me about this" or "how can you expect that". I find that accusatory and, frankly, I don't care who agrees with you about what, I want you to represent what you personally think and let everyone else who has thoughts and feelings on the subject speak for themselves. I don't want you to presume to speak for me, either.

Who are you coming after with this post? I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with CherylNYC. Your use of "once men" is inappropriate no matter what the setting, I certainly don't approve of you repeating it, no matter the context you are trying to place it in.

I don't see only one ideology being voiced. I disagree completely with your blanket statement that only one ideology is being voiced and therefore "we" cannot expect to have a meaningful discussion. Who are you to make that judgment call?

The whole post feels judging, like you have something to prove and won't be satisfied until everyone else agrees with your point, and until then you will continue to be adamant to the point of militance about your beliefs. Am I incorrect about this? I cannot help how I feel, but it would be good to know in advance if this is just a misinterpretation.

I guess at the end of the day, I am missing what the point is that you are trying to make. i've read the paragraphs over and over and I don't get it. It looks less like you're questioning trans/gender ideology and more like you're questioning whether or not to be inclusive of trans people. That feels crappy to me.

If my response is in any way threatening or violates the TOS for the site, I welcome the mods to contact me about it so that i may modify my behavior accordingly.