Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

This is a big HELL YES for me. I have a noticed a huge difference in treatment from both Femmes AND Butches since being in a long-term relationship.

Sadly, I have also noticed that there is often a long memory for gossip and salacious drama.

I have been with Jackhammer for going on 5 years as well and yet, I had an interaction very recently with another Femme reminding me that "my past was colorful and that I had "been around". Nevermind the fact that I have dated exactly THREE people in 10 years. And it isnt even about the fucking numbers. If I had dated and fucked 50 people a month for the last 10 years, it still does not give someone the right to question my relationship status with Jack now or ever. Now, in this circumstance, I know that the person making the statements was making a shitty attempt to silence me with shame. Not so much on that for me anymore.

I even still hear people to this day questioning how the relationship with Jackhammer and I formed. I have had people gossip behind my back and even ask outright to my face "Weren't you both with other people?" as if to invalidate our relationship. I usually give the same spill when this happens:
"Although its nobody's business but ours, the answer is technically "yes". We both LIVED with our exes but had been BOTH been sleeping apart from our exes for a while (a year for me, three years for Jack). We had known each other for 6 years prior to that, we never cheated with each other. When we had the conversation about wanting to be together, we both immediately told her exes and proceeded to make arrangements to disentangle from them".

And just as a sidenote, this "disentanglement" cost me personally about $20,000 in home equity, multiple large personal items like a washer and dryer, furniture, pets, a riding lawnmower, and a vehicle that was in my exes name that was 8 months from being paid off that I had made the $2000 cash down payment on and paid every single payment on from day one that I just WALKED AWAY from. This was NOT something that I just flippantly did. It was a life decision with GREAT financial reprecussions and I still get angry when I think of all of the people who thought they had a right to make judgments on why I left and HOW I left. I also never went public with my reasons for leaving my ex, but it was assumed by most who were even peripheral that it must have been because I "cheated", that I MUST have done something wrong because I was, after all, a "liar", a "whore", a "slut", and a "golddigger". The "golddigger" part is *really* laughable since I worked 2 jobs the ENTIRE span of my last relationship.
(Incidentally, it cost Jack $30,000 cash and a year and a half in court to disentangle from her ex)

I dont mean to spew and want to make clear that none of these players are members here on BFP. The reason I give all of this background is because people who had never even set foot in my home started trying to tell me about my relationship. People who had never even held a conversation with my ex were just automatically "on her side" because of the things that they "thought" they knew about me. People who had ever had any kind of ax to grind with me came out of the woodwork like a bunch of cockroaches to befriend my ex in her "time of need", help spread vicious and untrue gossip about me, and take the personal information that my ex was telling these new "friends" of hers so that they could try to shame me, silence me, or make me feel like a pile of shit.

How this relates to the experience of being taken seriously is multiplied exponentially with all of my experiences as a single Femme, a partnered Femme, a married Femme, and a separated Femme. Intersect those identities with classism, sizism, and ageism and you have a melting pot of goo that wont quit.

Am I taken more seriously now? In some ways, yes.
I have noticed that my sexuality isnt taken as seriously on some level. Maybe because Im now "off the market permanently" or because Im aging. Who knows.

I will say that this is a brilliant discussion and I cant wait to hear more.

Totally. I went to one of the bashes by myself years ago and yes, I was extremely suspect, in fact, by the end the second day I was getting phone calls from Nashville full of news of my exploits (sexploits?). After that, I went straight back to my room and ordered room service alone each night. But there was talk anyway.

Add Cynthia to the picture and automatically I am accepted and somehow am even seen as prim and proper (as if!).

I remember when I met you, you were single and seemed lost in a sea of judgement. I so knew that feeling. I remember just hugging you at the Ball, I had no words to say to make it all better.

Anyone else experince this?

Been around???? What are we back in the 40's??????

Christ on a cracker.

I have been called a "golddigger" too. I am WAY more upset about that than pretty much anything I have ever been called. I don't think I will EVER get over that.

Yes I have been way wild, yes I have participated in way risky behavior, yes I am fat, yes I am 46, but I work really hard and always have and I am no fucking Golddigger *picture me screeching*

Your kindness to me in Vegas helped me hang on. You give GREAT first impression and sometimes words aren't needed! I'd like to note that because I chose to not take any dates to Vegas I was accused of sleeping with several people whilst there. By the time the Ball rolled around a rumor was circulating that people had *searched* my suitcase in my room and discovered that my medication bottles were filled with vitamins and I was lying about having medical issues. Ummm? Seriously? Besides the fact that my meds were in my purse that whole thing was ridiculous. People gobbled it up and regurgitated it for years though. I was SO stressed that I had a seizure in the bathroom at the Ball which my friends held me through and sang opera to me.

You cannot win for losing. It has been said that I "buy my friends like Barbie". I pay to fuck. Laughable. On the other side of the coin? So what if I did? Whose business is it anyway?

Thanks Bit, I am hoping Kat comes in and answers though too..

So, how does this happen, why do butches answer for us when it's about us? Are we stepping back and letting it happen? Is it expected cause we are *femme* is this correct behaviour?

I am the soul sucking, will steal your butch, Lilith reincarnated why? I choose not to be in a long term relationship, *I* Snow choose to enjoy the fact I have a vagina and she loves to get fucked, *I* Snow have a big ol cock and oh yes I love to have it sucked clean.. *I* Snow do not like being tied down to one particular person, *I* Snow am sexual and have no qualms talking about how I like to fuck, wanna be fucked and will fuck. Though from the rumors you would swear I have fucked half the country.. Maybe sex scares some people, or maybe just those that are flapping their jaws are jealous? The world will never know..

No... No.. No... Do I enjoy the whispers and the pointing, when I was younger I was bothered, now I just raise my martini glass and smirk

Hey, you still owe me that Big Mac meal for our friendship.. Pay up damn it

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you, Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's asking questions, .. it's about letting butches answer for or about us.. We don't need to question ourselves at all....that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

I have spent a large portion of my life single. Going to butch-femme events as a single femme is just plain HARD. So, now I have a love-hate relationship with the larger b-f events. It takes every fiber of my being to remain positive and not start self-hating at those events. I often do feel left out or suspect by others. I don't know that this is because I am projecting my own fears onto the situation or if people really are purposefully leaving me out. Maybe a little of both? Who knows.

On a totally unrelated note, I spend an awful lot of time responding to posts and never actually posting what I've written because I am fearful of offending someone or not sounding academic enough. So, in a way, I guess I'm silencing myself.

I'm working to overcome some of these irrational fears and reading the posts in this thread is very helpful and fills me with hope. You are all so amazing and insightful! Thank you for your support and words!!!

~cara

(((Cara))) I felt left out in Vegas but I took a few good friends with me, so it wasn't so bad. I did feel disconnected though. You are probably not imagining that.

Your posts are great and do NOT need to sound academic. Promise. Just post what you feel and as long as you are not outright hating, it will be fine. I'm glad you find this thread helpful because you are amazing too! :awww:

please pardon the intrusion
 

i wanted to thank everyone who is participating in this thread. i'm finding much food for thought here. i appreciate the opportunity to learn to be a better ally. y'all seriously rock.

Hmmmm...sounds like a new femme drinking game for the reunion...

Take a shot every time we hear a load of shit about ourselves or others?

We could call it Shooting the Shit.

I get your point, but I don't think allowing someone to open a door for me or show those "old school" manners means that I've handed over my power.

For me, it's a cultural way of showing respect. When Goof does it, it's one of his ways of taking care of me. Certainly it's not the only way, but it was the way I was raised, so it is familiar and comfortable to me. I actually feel more powerful with those manners because I feel like I am being deferred to.

I so want to be a part of this conversation, but my nuerons are not firing.. So, I'm going to stop trying to craft this post into anything but the most basic of questions..

After reading some of the rummors that have been flying around for years (?) (I'm more than slightly self involved and am just hearing them now)


Why? I really want to know why people feel the need to tear each other down, spread rummors, tell lies, trying to make someone seem small, or petty... Why tear people down to make yourself feel important?

This is a question that has occupied my thoughts most of my life?

I pretty well walk through life with blinders on.. I have no clue as to what people think of me.. It's always such a shocker to find that not only has someone even thought of me, but that they put the time and effort into talking about me to someone.. Blink..

Last year I started talking to a butch that was friends of a friend of my LT ex.. Some of the things that he passed on to me.. ABOUT ME put me in a state of shock.. Why the hell was someone wasting their time and energy warning this butch about ME??? (Hell, all anyone has to do is read my posts for the last eight years and they will know just about everything about me..)

Apparently, I was a liar, a whore, a cheat, a horrible mother, a gold digger, wouldn't clean or cook,or hold down a job and spent all my time on the internet..

Amazing what you find out about your self from someone you have never met.

The friend of a friend of my ex's was a femme that while I never thought of as a friend, I didn't think of as an enemy..

I ask why... Why do we have to be catty and nasty to each other? I'm not talking snark.. or interpersonal relationships... I'm talking soul biting nastyness.. The kind that if you have a cricket in your head, she is screaming her lungs out at you while you try to sleep..

I don't want to hear about how no one does it... I know I did it twice when I was younger and my cricket was out partying.. I did it out of jealousy and envy... I also know that I wouldn't ever do it again..

I want to hear why you did it...

I think it may be weird if it is not a known TPE (Total Power Exchange) relationship. I've been in those (with bio males and butches). Giving up the power is freeing on one hand but there is a loss of self if you and your Dominant are not careful.

I've seen some seriously kick-ass strong femmes in these relationships. They are not doormats. As someone else said (Snow?) those submissives were some of the strongest women I've ever known.

And I have also seen what the negative side of that turns people into--grasping, clinging, whining, can't make a decision to pee or poop by themselves. It's ugly. And there's no saving those types from themselves. They will keep going back to that type of relationship until they wise up and grow the spine necessary.

I know. I used to be one.

EXACTLY.

In my world, Femme is neither what we wear nor what we do--nor whom we do. Femme is who and what we ARE. Nobody--N O B O D Y--can take it away from us.

Omg, you're kidding! They didn't get that?!

Well, I suppose the context might make a difference on that one, come to think of it.... if I said that to a Transman, I don't think it would necessarily sit well, cuz yanno, Man + Femme does not equal Queer unless the Transman himself already identifies as Queer. But anyone else I might sleep with? Hell YES it would make them Queer to sleep with me... that's the societal definition of Queer, two females having sex, and I am definitely female--so YEAH, if other female-bodied people sleep with me, it means they must be Queer, whether they were before or not.

I'm picking up this undercurrent in your post, June, please correct me if I'm wrong... but this statement about people being Queer because they sleep with you, it's about power, right? It's about the subtle perception that only Butches, being masculine, have the power to claim sexuality, to "make people Queer" through sex? Am I reading you right that people were angry because they saw you "usurping" that masculine power?

If I'm reading you right, THAT is most definitely not only masculine-centric but also male-centric, since it would be derived from the cultural idea that sex belongs to males and females must neither initiate nor enjoy it.

Overthrow that stereotype! Claim that power, Sister Femmes! Viva la toaster oven! :cheesy:

Cara, hon, I wanted to answer you specifically.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cara}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I have been there, I have been there, I have been there. It is a most uncomfortable feeling for me, yanno? Usually it's a fear of offending people, although sometimes when a convo has been strongly academic I have thrown up my hands and walked away because I just haven't been able to muster up the energy to .......omg, I just almost said "compete" when I meant to say "participate"!!

That pretty much tells me about the threads where I have run into that--none on this site, btw--but oh, how telling!

Well, anyhow. What I mean to say to you is start slow. Take baby steps. Your post here is a marvelous start, very courageous. Speak from your heart, darlin, and the more you do it, the easier it will get.

Sometimes a person just has to break through that fear barrier one step at a time. Soon enough, you won't be silencing yourself any longer. :bouquet:

I love y'all, and I think I understand why some of you share this conceptualization around queering others by virtue of fucking them, but it doesn't work for me, and here's why: Although I hold an identity as queer lesbian (femme is my gender) my sexual orientation is more accurately pansexual. It would not work for me whatsoever if by having sex with a straight leaning male-identified fella, a straight heterosexual transman, or a straight bio male that any of these folks decide I were "straightened out" by the act of sex with them.

I think we have the capacity to affect one another on all kinds of levels when we engage this way, but never in the way that we identify, unless that mechanism is not held consciously by us.

See, if it's an act of taking back power for us to say that anyone who fucks me is queered by me, then I feel that power was artificial in the first place because it cannot work both ways. If it only works for me, and not him, then it's a lesser power. He'd think of it as trite, possibly.

I don't want a trite power. I want a whole one.

:stillheart:

I feel one hundred percent whole in my power because the act of queering for *me* has always been consensual. Every. Single. Time.

I discuss before I leap, because I am sick and fucking tired of the world at large identifying me by whom I fuck. Nobody gets to do that to me.

Now I must confess I have had dialogue with those who would not consent with me, nor I with them. No clothes were removed after the dialogue.

The power within me is to remain Queer because it is who I am.

This rather relates to what y'all were discussing before in the way a femme's (and I would say, a feminine person's) agency shifts when she is single. Aspersions are cast, rumors are flung, assumptions run like flood waters. She is identified by both who she is fucking and who she isn't (i.e., who it is assumed she is fucking).

I love that you've made your queer a conscious conversation. This is so important, perhaps especially for women. Sometimes, this has been true for me as well. But either way, it can never be negated. I don't need it to be true for anyone else. I don't have to make it true for them for it to remain true for me. Queer has less, these days, to do with who or how I've fucked than how I think.

I believe we're more alike that way, and in most ways, probably, than we could ever be different. And that is the reason, after all, that I found a home in femme. Why my queer is centered here.

:heartbeat:

Taking two steps back in the conversation...
 

Yeah, we've all had those experiences, but that doesn't make me throw the baby out with the bathwater. If anyone was ever surly with me, that would be the last time they were allowed to open a door for me, yanno?