I suppose just keep fighting it. Call it out when we see it over and over and over.






That's interesting because after thinking about it, i do both...

When i hear it from the femme folks, it makes me feel sad and sorta hurts my feelers i guess. I want to reach out and find out how anyone could think this era of time could be a good thing. It boggles my mind.

But, i'll be completely honest here, when i hear it from masculine folk? I get VERY defensive....and i don't really know why i feel this way...I want to scream, levitate, spew green fluid from my nostrils and bite the head off of a bat.

Not sure why it spurs different feelings depending on who i hear it from. I'll have to think on that.

I just wish we could be kinder and not so condescending to those around us and receive the same. All this creates is shame.

Answering
 

I also thought about this last night before falling asleep. Service oriented submission isn't a 50's lifestyle it's service. I am coming from my Leather oriented space so when speaking of service nothing binary comes to mind in my thinking. Chores, tasks, markers aren't gender specific. My boys are going to do dishes as are my girls. I'm more like WTF when someone refers to service oriented BDSM/Kink/Leather as something from the 50's.

I hope that makes sense

WOOF
 

BAM!!!!


I love that Jo!

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

i am going to reply to this privately. i see no reason to derail this thread with my response.



forgive me if i'm seriously blind but i cant find any such phrase in my post. at no time do i say "tell me what to do" that i can see. i said "what then do i do about...." which is, perhaps, an old-fashioned way of speaking but in no way is meant to suggest that i'd like to be told what to do so that i dont have to think of one myself. i was asking what ideas other people might have for participating in the discussion without coming from an othering or offensive place.

My apologies for paraphrasing -- what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference?"

:|

i interpreted that in the same way - nomad, i apologize if i misinterpreted what you meant. :rrose:

Curious
 

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

Gender = femme

me.

i agree with martina (i think) - the problem isn't the power dynamics. the problem is when gender becomes conflated with the power dynamics. especially when the genders and dynamics reflect wider systems of privilege/oppression.

I consider femme a part of my gender, but I balk against any one word encompassing me. I also don't care for boxes and labels which is what I feel like I get stuffed into when asked about my gender, presentation, etc. Maybe I'll go for fierce as my gender - that slides better under my skin.

Gender
 

Femme, though I did not come to adopt this until I was say like 29, I had a real hard time with it at first because deep down I knew I was. I still love my marker *Dyke* I am very proud of that identifier.


Femme felt very comfortable and it has a wondeful skin to grow into in my later age. If I could change my marker on my license it would be Womyn.

Not me....maybe it's coming out super late, but I still think of woman/female as my gender.

For me, gender has nothing to do with who I love or have sex with, or even how I live. For me, it's literally anatomical. I totally get that that's not the case for many people here....and that's all good in my book.

Femme, for me, is more about my sexuality.

i didn't realize it but i feel this way too.

i am just protective of my femme label.

Thoughts
 

I often forget about how others define gender and gender roles once I step out of my hoola hoop (ArweNism).

So the dynamics for me still stay the same.


I'm the boss.

I do love to do laundry, I have only one man cub left and it's nicer to only have him. I don't miss the older cubs because well they are grown. So when tantalizing spoke of Ms Cleaver in the mother hood role I was like, HEY I GET THAT!

It was interesting cause I got a lil giddy, connecting with her in that way. I loved loved loved being a Momma. Though in my house it was a Latino run house so the dynamics between the kids and I though very maternal and detail oriented (like Ms Cleaver) it was like I knew or had an example of when it came to Momma's.

So that got me to thinking how now as I am older, house stuff I no likey so much.

I will assist the boy, but it's different it's relaxing it's not so time consuming and I get to be the bad Momma and make Kraft Mac and cheese and the boy makes home made (fill in the blank).


I don't feel less than now, not like I did in my mid 20's. I believe it's the work I do and continue to do on me. OMG do I need a lot with all my RAWR RAWR RAWR and passion for things.

I can say when I am spoken to like I am stoopid or I am head patted it makes me boil, it's almost like wow where am I and it makes me laugh.


Thanks tantalizing for reminding me about the Momma part, that really got me to thinking a lot about gender *performance* and how only girls/women do dishes and boys/men work on cars.

I am glad I know about both.

In my life I choose to be a working woman. I am a mom who balances leading, coaching and letting my daughter lead. I am submissive in the bedroom (90% of the time) and allow my natural mushy lovey girl side show for my sweetie. At work I am big on making peace, finding a shared focus but not just rolling over to the dominate way of being. I accept my dichotomies.

I enjoy entertaining, throwing a great birthday party and being a gracious host. Those are ways I show I care about people. That is as close to June Cleaver as I may get.

All and all I am just me. June Cleaver is just a TV show. The way culture, people, communities make her out to be some figure of femme perfection is a sad commentary on how easily some folks let their view of women and our world be distorted. And I won't be lazy about confronting that limited way of thinking.

At one time in my life, college, I swore off capri pants as I was certain I would not wear clothing that harkened the 50's view of women. I own many capri pants now. I like how I look in them.

As for do identify as Femme? I am still exploring. I think femme is the best expression of myself in dress, mannerisms and many parts of myself. I am still wrapping my mind around the whole "gender" thing.

I keep thinking about the question Snow posed: Is Femme your Gender?

I came out at 17 as Gay. I realized at 18 I was a Lesbian -- This was the 70's. My relationships were definitely gender misogynistic Butch/Femme relationships and I was clearly in Butch led relationships. I grew up!!!

I went through a feminist phase and retaliated against anything patriarchal and discovered once again, my Femme. I have held onto her and not let her go. Though, I did go through a Femme phase, where I didn't want to be classified as Femme, as the butches I knew (back then) thought the best Femme's were bimbo's. I couldn't play Bimbo Femme, even when I tried. However, I remained Femme.

I suppose Femme is my gender. I don't really connect with Lesbian, though I am and I (like Snow) hold onto my Dyke -- Being a Dyke is important to me. I am a Femme Dyke. And I am a Lesbian, in some odd sort of Sapphic historic way.

When I refer to myself, I am always Femme and sometimes Dyke. And definitely repeating myself... But I am processing this... It's been a long time for me since I came out. I haven't really ever had to analyze it, as I just did.

Signed Julie Femme Dyke who knows her Sapphic history.