1. with regards to pronouns: i ask, prior and i default 'she' for butches because i know more 'she' than 'he/hy' butches and while 'he' seems a the go-to pronoun 'online' --i like continuity (and newsflash: she does not equal less-than).

2. i think the importance in talking about how/why x-person says her partner is 'a man' with a one small detail like *boobs* comes down to the *qualifying* your female partner (as man-but-for) makes your relationship less-than authentic in the eyes of the average and straight reader.

also, it defeats the purpose of being an OUT "lesbian" --and this is what nixon talked about for a good part of the interview (that both partners desired to be *out* and prior, nixon's manager/publicist person had discouraged her from disclosing her relationship.).

3. so, whether or not she 'chose' to be the spokesperson for 'female and gay' --a big article in the ADVOCATE will spotlight what you're doing/what it's all about/what it looks like/sounds like/feels like to the person unfamiliar with female masculinity.


full quote:

"She's basically a short man with boobs. A lot of what I love about her is her butchness. I'm not saying I fell in love with her in a sexually neutral way. I love her sexuality - it's a big part of what I love about her - but I feel like it was her. It wasn't something in me that was waiting to come out. It was like, 'This person is undeniable. How can I let this person walk by?'

finally, i find it curious that nixon reduces her partner to male/female body parts while she resists fully owning her sexuality, instead places it square on the shoulders of her partner: "...i feel like it was her. it wasn't something in me..."

*and i'm not a big sex/the city fan, to be fair. (not sure if that matters)

Right, what she said... thanks Martina.

I'm not sure where things come off as looking for anything but recognition of the issues put forth. Truth, maybe if more peeps could get past trying to read in between the lines conversations like these would get so fucky nuts in the first place.

Sez me who's pretty damn tired of these convos as well, wish there wasn't a need for them, but there is.
Metro

Me: in red.

I don't get tired of respecting other community members be they femme, butch, androgynist, bisexual, lesbian, male, woman, female, no gender, men, intersexed, or whatever. I feel energized by the diversity of this community, not taxed and exhausted. Is there anything we can do to help you feel better? What would make the diversity feel better for you?

Well, Daddy I -do- get and I'll give you that (and I never give anybody anything). But know that the "Sir" I was referring to was really a lowercase "sir". I was talking about if Nick says "on your way back from the kitchen grab me a drink" or "hold this" and I say "yes sir!" and click my heels sarcastically. (That's just an example, I would never be sarcastic with the spouse. Please!) Why is that just shrugged off? Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

Snow is hot. If I wasn't married I would totally try to do it with her. I have no idea what "it" is, and I would like to apologise now for this temporary derail.

Well, when you and me have been dating for years and are raising a child together maybe then you can call me pretty much whatever you please without pissing me off, okay? We simply do not have the kind of relationship where it's okay to for you to call me anything other than my name. Which is Brandy.

It seems to me that the only conversation that you are interested in having is the one where everybody stays completely within the rules of topic that you defined in your initial post without the topic ever expanding or evolving in any way shape or form. Oh, and that it's also very important that everybody agree with you - which doesn't make for very interesting conversation as far as I'm concerned.

Nobody is disagreeing with you on that. At all. So what is the problem, here?

In fact, I tried to have a conversation with you on that -exact- topic (see my post about it not being okay to call every Butch on the planet "he" just because it's convenient) but instead of engaging in conversation you accused me of "baiting" you.

I think what you actually wanted was a thread where you made your initial post, and a bunch of people posted 2-3 word sentences along the lines of "you're so right!" "it's awful!" "grody bad behaviour!" and that was it.


p/s - I get that this thread isn't about Femmes, but i do want to put out there that this across-the-board referring to all Butches as "he" really lends to the invisibility of Femmes. If I am on the bus, at work, at the mall, on the phone with my parents and referring to my spouse as "he"...then nobody is ever going to know who Nick is, and by extension of that who I am.

grabbing's heart's post:

"We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh."

This thread is almost having me convinced to fuck the binary completely and keep my man boobs intact. (almost, I said)..

but how valid is a discussion of ID in this thread when really what I see from Heart's initial post, it's more about a MACRO not MICRO perspective. In other words, it has nothing to do with Cynthia or Christine or you or me or anyone on a personal level, but a constant persistent objectification and reduction of the human female form, perpetuated ad infinitum.

I'm not saying personal reactions are not valid, though.

Take Cynthia out of the equation and look solely at the statement, the sound bite. It speaks volumes and that's what people (mainstream) see. They don't see the woman behind the boobs.

I said this essentially to you privately, but I'm going to state it here because it's important to me (with addition).

As far as ID goes... I'm butch... not a game it's just life, and my sex and gender are not my ID... they are what they are, neither a game nor a choice to be played out for anyone else to win or lose at.

I take it seriously, yep... and I expect respect around them... and I won't accept any less. I don't expect any less from myself in interaction with others either... golden rule thing, do unto others and all, it works for me.

That's why I'm in this conversation when I'd rather be well, doing just about anything else.

More importantly, I also stated I don't think or see a "hatred between" ID's... sure there's some peeps with insecurities and some peeps are maybe just cranky but I personally have friends of all ID's here... because they are good peeps male and female alike. I think that's pretty important to make clear.

I have issues with other things you said, but quite honestly, it's late, it's not worth it to me and life's too damn short as it is.

Metropolis

No Jack, I am not talking about you, Medusa, the Moderators, Techno Geeks, or anyone else helping to make this website what it is.

I have privately and publicly thanked all of you several times. I just did so earlier today:

I don't need any special privileges, parking passes, etc etc. I have friends and allies across the gender spectrum. Certainly some of my best allies and friends in the world are trans men. I don't play the male vs. female game.

I feel VERY disrespected if someone else has a different view about HOW I should be, WHAT I should be.
And I don't need special privileges or parking passes to speak up about it.
And I don't need to play my "female oppression card" (that's like a "race card", right?).

I don't have an oppression card.

[QUOTE=Toughy;104615]

Sexuality and kink identifications are not the same as gender ID. I am woman. I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

The general public who read 'short man with boobs' has no earthly idea about the nuances of gender/sexuality/kink. Hell half of this community doesn't get kink and it's relationship (or lack of) to sexuality and gender.

What the general public read was masculine woman=man.

[QUOTE]

Yup! Sexuality & kink identifications are not the same! At all!!! Also, the statement in included with boobs... Just doesn't equate to me. the reference places butch in a male default. Which is something that does bug many of us.

I am wondering too if some male-identified butches might take offense as well.. and then there is the short thing. This could set off some butches or short people in general. I can see transmen being offended too due to sensitivity to the narrow definitions of women in general. After all, there are many feminist transmen here that are partnered with women and they have experienced past sexism (along with transphobia) themselves. Many femmes find this offensive- the OP for one.

I have no idea if she was just making a statement in jest, could be. Maybe it is a term of endearment, dunno. I don't hold her to any higher standard. I am offended as a butch, a feminist and as a woman, however. Crazy, ultra offended- no. Just think its important for people to say what they feel about this because we all do have some deep feelings about gender and sexism, no matter how we identify.

I do not feel this so called hatred between male and female identified butches or transmen. I have at times in the past, but honestly see movement in our working through anger and differences. Sure, there has been heated discussions and oh, so, many gender threads about butches. This tells me that we are a complex group with individual characteristics representing a multitude of what a butch is. I have learned alot by reading differing posts about other's butch identity.

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

Who says something, and why it's said does matter because it speaks to context. Seeing what CN said, in print, raised some bile for me. I didn't think that she meant anything negative. In fact, what I thought she was doing, by saying, "basically," was explaining. Who knows? Maybe she struggles with accepting herself and trying to figure out where she fits in, like me. Like a lot of us. Maybe it was an awkward, "Oh shit. Did I just say that?" moment. I have them fucking all the time. Good thing I obsessively edit what I write on line, or you would see my foot in my mouth pretty often. What she said is relevant to me. Not because I give a crap about her, especially. It's just that her comments (obviously) hit a nerve because they reflect the underbelly of emotion that is more difficult to deal with. That SHE said something like "men with boobs" doesn't really bother me. That it was said at all does cause me some discomfort. If it's a springboard for self-examination and discussion, why is it so upsetting when some of us find it relevant to reference? Why does a discussion have to go in a particular way in order for it to be legitimate?

See I have to disagree with you here Bad Boi... Butches ARE NOT just like men, now mind you there are some ass munchers who will play out the guy role, be jerky, an ass clown, have a touch of misogyny but they are NOT men.. Now, I am not a butch so perhaps I speak out of line, I do however have friends from both ends of the spectrum and in between, who would take offense at the fact that they are looked upon as the *men* of our community. They aren't and they should not have that expectation put on them by their allies or their own brethren.


It's clear and simple, for some unknown fucked up reason *men* even in our own fold is used first, as if woman was a lower than descriptor, heaven forbid a butch be in touch with their cunt or breasts because not only is it going to *squick* their future dating scene it's going to get alot of jabs from their own (other butches)

Female Identified butches have been screaming this out over and over since hell I can remember on any of these sites..


I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

Ms Potty gave a good example, if she had said this to her partner

Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

There would of been some kind of rant because Nick was feminized. THAT makes me crazy!!!

I can't stand and I get how frustrating it is to have being *woman* turned into something less than or icky.

It's not... I don't experience this kind of gender wars as much on the outside as I do on here, I meet someone and I get to know them and if they say hey I prefer *hy, he, she, shym zi" then I will use it, other than that they are *Al* I don't assume that their gender id is male regardless of what they wear or what scent they have on. *I* don't want anyone to slap a label on me without asking so therefore I try not to do it to anyone else.

Anyways, my point is Bad Boi, NO I will not face it, butches are not like men.

End of my rant.

First I did not mean to thank you............I clicked the wrong button.

Let me be perfectly clear..............

I am NOT like a man in any way period. full stop. I am a masculine woman. Not a man.

It's stuff like this that really chaps my ass..............makes me wonder if you actually read the thread............

I promised myself I was gonna stay out of this thread *sigh*

I have read every single post here, and given this a great deal of thought and, as usual, am not entirely sure what I think about all of this. It's not just about this thread...that's my normal state of being.

Truly, I do get that the conversation isn't about what CN said or the context or whatever. I think we can all agree that partners say things about each other in affection or jest that could be taken as disrespectful or even misogynistic by those outside of the relationship. Scoote calls me a hot little bitch...among other things...and while I would not tolerate that from anyone else on earth, from her it I like it...and it makes me giggle and get that warm, fuzzy thing going.

I'm rather new to this whole BF dynamic...hence the "newly hatched" in my profile...so I will apologize in advance if I unintentionally step on anyone's toes. My point of view comes from a whole adult lifetime spent in relationships with bio-men (I'm slow...took me for-freakin-ever to figure myself out), my relationship with a female-id'ed butch, and friendships both online and in real time with both male-id'ed and female-id'ed butches. So....perhaps like Cynthia Nixon, I'm a bit new to this community and these ideas....

I get hung up on the pronouns alot. I always try to remember who ID's in what way and use the appropriate she/he/hy....but admit that in my own head I default to she. I think the reason for that is that "masculine" and "butch" energy feel very, very different to me. I haven't yet met or spoken to a male-ID'ed butch that felt like a man to me. I'm willing to be wrong on this...it just hasn't happened yet. I don't look at the pic in this thread and say "man"....I look and say "butch" (and also "cute couple").

One of the (several) things that bothered me on the dash site was the automatic default to the male pronoun. My partner is not "he." She does not want to be a man, or any approximation of a man. She is, in my view, magnificent, gorgeous, female, and butch. She doesn't have "masculine" energy....she has butch energy. It feels different to me...and better.

I've got nothing at all against men, masculine energy, or anyone who chooses to identify male. That's their right and bravo for them. Just as it's my right to be femme in my own way....intelligent, headstrong, stubborn, silly and girly.

Long way around...sorry....I think we get hung up, as a community and as a larger society, because none of the words we have quite fit. If I am trying to describe "butch" to my mother or her friends or my straight co-workers who have never had any exposure to this community....I have a problem. If I say masculine, then they think male. Those two words are tied together in their brains...and in mine. If people don't understand "butch" then I run out of words to describe it to them. I've spent alot of time fumbling for the right words with friends...and many of them are probably still left with the idea that Scoote is some approximation of a man. It's not because they value maleness more highly (I guarantee they don't)...it's a lack of personal exposure on their part, and the words to describe it well on mine.

I'm a man with boobs.

Now, you may be male-ID'd but I'd bet many female-ID'd butches would disagree with you. They are all woman and proud of it (rightful so). Sometimes there is too much emphasis in society on the masculine, particularly with placing it on the top of the societal food chain. If I think of a mainstream butch (for some reason, k.d. lang comes to mind), I can bet she's rather proud of the woman she is and all her parts. So why shouldn't a non-mainstream woman be proud of that?

Society will continue to place a hierarchical order to gender (e.g., male == strong; female == weak) because changes to that come gradually and only when the call out of behaviour is done to ALL of society. We can call it out here, debate it here but if it's only done here, then a large part of society misses it. And it gets lost.

Is it (the phrase in question) misogyny? Yes. Our language (english) is rather misogynistic in nature, even if one attempts to change it. The comments left in regards to the original news/blog piece need to be educated. Not by mashing them over the head but with a gentle nudge.



(Note: this isn't to diminish the "silencing" of the femaleness of a butch woman but a commentary on how society seems to be about, well.. everything): It is interesting how in society (both mainstream and here) we tell people to be their own individual self and yet, when enforce a specific singular label on them as the defining characteristic. And if my defining characteristic is slightly different than yours... well... :overreaction: seems to be the response (whether here or in mainstream society).

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.


The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).