Yeah! That's exactly it.

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa :rrose:

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something.... :giggle:

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly :stillheart:

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...

Jo, thanks for telling your story! :)

There are quite a few Femmes (and Butches and Transmen) on these boards who came out later in life and/or who have been married once or several times. There are a lot of Femmes (and Butches and Transmen) who have slept with men and have children. None of this negates who you are now or who you were then :)

I had many of the same kinds of feelings when I first discovered the Butch/Femme dynamic. Kinda like a "Wow, I cant believe I missed this.." or "Wow, why didnt I look for this sooner.." What you say about only knowing what we know rings so true.
If we dont have access to other Femmes, its HARD to recognize that within ourselves sometimes, much less NAME it for what it is.
Think of the images and stories that are most readily available in the media about Lesbians. How many Femmes can we all point out? How many Femmes could we have pointed out in the 70s and 80s?
My personal view? People have BEEN Femme for a long, long time but the recognition and ownership of Femme is fairly new in the dyke world.

I would venture that most of us need some kind of touchstone to spark that recognition within ourselves. Something that tells us that we aren't just a "freak" or "a straight girl who has a kink for Butch women" or insert any other number of identifiers.

Im glad we have this space and each other to do that. Each of our ways of being Femme are correct and valid, and I love hearing about how other people have found their Femme and how they "do" it, even when it is very different than mine or anything I have ever seen.

femme and ME
 

I'm High Femme and very, very girlie in many ways, though I'm not a "princess". I know how to use power tools, for example, and have used them when necessary. I'm definitely a feminist & am not into any of the "I can't do such & such because I'm the Femme, or 'you' have to do such & such because you are the Butch/Stud/Boi". Blech on that, though, in the bedroom 'roles' do get a bit more defined;-)

I suppose that in some ways the fact that I am a lesbian has been invisible to some people. The fact that my being a High Femme lesbian has never been invisible to Butches/Studs/Bois is all that matters to me. In regard to other styles of lesbians, they either get it, or not. I really don't care.

I did find the early years of Second Wave feminism to be difficult for me. Even though I did my best to wear the 'uniform" I could never quite give up the mascara and lip stick. That was an issue for some. A few years ago, I used to attend a monthly Sunday brunch for Jewish lesbians in my neck of the woods. I was always the most glam lesbian in the group. At first some of the other women looked a bit askance at me, but over time they got over it. I figured I presented an opportunity for them to put their money where their mouths were, so to speak, in regard to their professed feminism, i.e. they really did get it about one being a woman identified woman, or they didn't. In other words, those that had some issues with my way of being got to learn that High Femme has absolutely zero to do with the dominant culture's rules regarding the feminine and females. Fortunately for the group only a few of the members had to stretch & grow in that area. Everyone else was very chill.

woah!
 

WOAH!! I never heard that one before! That's appalling that someone would actually think that.

We all have been shaped by our life experiences to get to the place where we are now in life. I wished I had known who & what I am much younger but it did not play out that way. My childhood shaped me & was not a positive one. I got married @ 18 to a bio man, had two daughters by the time I was 20. I was divorced by the time I was 25. My bi phase lasted a couple of years-even though in all that time I had only one orgasm with a man-trust issues. Another process to acknowledge to myself I was lesbian. Never thought about whether or not I was femme-it is just me. The invisibility of it in the world is difficult. Everyone knew who & what I was with my ex-she had the issues related to being called sir all the time but she dug it. She identified as stone butch for years (until she let me fuck her) then she was simply butch & I loved her masculine energy & presence & she
loved that I was femme. I did not realize honestly that there are levels of being femme until I found the planet. Bottom line-don't we just want to be accepted as the person we are? On the Planet I will try my best to accept everyone for who & what they are-period. I have never found such a large group of intelligent, thoughtful & articulate people; regardless of their identity. Sorry if I side-tracked
off the original question/responses.

I've been on the receiving end of that particular bit of poison more than once. I have to admit I haven't heard it as much now that I"m in my thirties, but it was common between 18 and 23 for me. I grew up in a very small town and was the only openly gay person up until about 4 years ago. Most people didn't understand and figured that the only way I would prefer women (especially butch women) over the local football hero was if there was something wrong with me. You'd be surprised what people can come up with to explain what is wrong with you.

Is there a hierarchy? I purposefully don't use a modifier before the word "femme" because usually high or low or whatever was ascribed TO ME by well-meaning friends or partners. It perpetuates the idea that being femme is all about our appearence.

Jo I cannot even begin to tell you how much I appreciate you sharing this. It is my experience too. I remember so many times wishing that the lesbian world would come to me and take me away. I know that many lesbians I encountered thought of me as the worst of the bi-curious straight girls. I was so desperately trying to have someone see me and they never did.

I had never heard the word femme until I read Judith Butler. A light bulb went off in my head!! So THAT is what I am!!! It was and still is a revelation to me.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I was told I was ""man hurt". :blink:

Not sure if this is the proper place for this, but.....The term "high femme" or "very high femme" irk me.

Not sure why.

I think I may be simplifying here when I say that we live in a very heterosexist culture. We have media/cultural driven gender roles & behaviors in which masculine women & effeminate men are seen as being lesbian or gay, & feminine women & masculine men are seen as being straight. I think that all of us grow up internalizing that message, to one degree or another. Thus, we see it expressed in our Queer communities when we are not recognized as Queer, ourselves.

As Queer Femmes, we are very diverse in our expression of Femme. I don't believe that there is a right way, or wrong way to go about being Femme. There is only the owning and expressing the vastness of our feminine energy in all of its fabulously powerful and gorgeous forms, as we define it, not as dominant or even Queer culture defines it.

Doesn't matter if we are tops, bottoms, or in between, or whether we sexually engage with other Femmes, masculine of center women, those who are FTM, or any other Queer gender. Femme as gender transcends one's biological sex. That is, regardless of being born into a female or a male body, one can be Femme.

Until the past few months, I've been out of the lesbian/queer public community loop for some time, so if there is some silliness going on regarding a Femme hierarchy, I am blissfully unaware of it. I am High Femme & feminist. I don't see being High Femme as superior to any other type of Femme, it is just one of many forms of Femme expression, IMO. Plus, if the queer haters come knocking, they aren't going to give one rip about the different types of Femme. In their small minds, they just see Queer, period. We need to be each others' allies.

I really enjoyed the article, Trouble in a Tutu, today.

y'know, reading this thread has been a reminder about things.

I've had the massive privilidge of living in two very different kinds of community (many subtle different kinds but two majour ones). I recall the most extreme of one being in Toronto where the nick name of it being "bois town" didn't quite sink in till I attended a 300+ queer night at Buddies. "WOW! OMG! wall to wall butchez!! I am. so. lucky. Look at them all! gosh.... just so.... many... and.... ahhhhhh. um. there's ah. five femmes? ??? oh. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. oh CRAP >:( " and I did find out that unless you were an aogressive/assertive hard working/networking full-on femme top, as a femme you didn't have a chance. One friend actually cut all her hair off, dressed in dungarees and pretended to be a "faye" boi bottom - and got a lot of action. Till she fell in love and very slowly came out to her Daddy. very slowly explaining that just because she was femme, did not mean she was shallow, demanding, materialistic, high matinance emotionally, wanting to be served and pandered to while being submissive etc.

it confused me to tears because here were all these very strong, independant, mouthy femmes that organised so many community events and worked with the bisexual women's community to make sure it was integrated, many worked very hard with the gay men's leather community to get integrated sunday brunches going etc. Yet the common perception of a femme was "I don't want to pander to a spoilt demanding child." Which threw me. It you look at the programme of Mad Men and look at Don Draper's wife, Peggy, how immature, dependant, demanding and looks orientated and confused she is, that's the view of femmes in a relationship I was under the impression the larger masculine ID'd community of lesbians thought of us. It seemed that although the masculine ID'd were pretty swinging (in that they enjoyed submissive bois and very toppy femmes who didn't seem allowed to have needs) the stereotype was still pervasive in people's heads about femme femininity.

This probably has changed somewhat as it's been 10 years since I've lived there and I know the feminist porn awards are there now etc.

When I moved to london, gosh I can't tell you how different it became. It was like a veil lifted off me that wieghed two sacks of wet cement. I was seen. And yes, many times people thought I was straight or bisexual, but here's the key, they didn't give a sh*t and still tried to chat me up in the bar or give me an appreciative once over on the tube. I'd like to state this is a London phenomena, I know it changes when you leave London. There are also so many lesbian clubs, bars, nights and venues I can't possibly know them all.

And because of this and because of a very organsied and outgoing Individual who moved to london from her country, club wotever was started. and from that little wee club of generqueer that turned into club nights, weekly bar nights, movie nights and a sex club - club fuk (which just closed) and then started Bird Club because she felt there needed to be a feminine (she doesn't ID as femme, she ID's as Bird, which is the working class name for girl and she's very political in that way) gender queer club (temporarily closed due to lack of venue but she's still looking).

But the difference in visual acceptance I got between vancouver, seattle, calgary, toronto, portland...vs London is unfathomable if you haven't experienced that kind of visual immediate acceptance. I'm not talking about the lesbian nod, which I still don't get - though in oxford I've had it twice when I've been out with my wife. And everytime it happens I'm always gobsmacked and pleased down to my teeniest toe. But the casualness of acceptance in queer space. the tone is very different. there's an ease that I know I can just be. I don't have to be ever so slightly tense all night cause I'm going to get "those looks" or get challenged at the door or if not verbally by the scowl as I walk in. or some drunk will come up and say something stupid about straight girls in pubs.

Or worse, that feeling you have the words "serial killer" painted on your forehead if you go to a pub on your own and no one will talk to you, even though you've tried a couple times to start polite convo with people beside you. but they will stare.

that doesn't happen in London, not in my experience. The cloak of invisibility isn't nearly as smothering. I get some of the same stereotype assumptions of what I'm like as a person: high strung, demanding, constant need for attention etc but that's really just from mouthy young baby dykes at clubs who are pretty high matinance and attention seeking themselves but fail to claim these charming traights because they happen to see themselves as masculine. They figure it out later that it's a personality traight, not a gender trait. and frankly I don't have to be around them till they figure it out cause there's enough people who know I'm an individual with individual personality traits and I do not have a borg personality just because I'm wearing heels.

Apologies, I wrote too quickly and I realise there was some info missing. Ingo started wotever world with a lot of big help from the community and volunteers and Bird la Bird started Bird Club - if anyone wants any help or advice in starting gender queer clubs in their area, they are both on facebook. Wotever World (Ingo) and Bird la Bird (Kath) are their pages.

I have to say that I've never felt invisible in London most of the time anyway.

Just would like to say that I've party-ed with Ingo and Ingo rocks. Go to anything Ingo produces !
Also would like to say that butches adore Femmes! So do "Femme" your own way and we will love You for You.
XO

So, I'm completely out at work. Have been since day 1. ( I find it much easier to just bust it on out rather than let them find out later because I have a big mouth and don't do well keeping my business to myself).

Many folks at work have either met Jack or at least seen photos of her (on my desk). Today, someone who I have only worked with over the phone came to my office and seemed surprised that Jack is a big honkin' Butch.

Her words were: "It's not that you're a Lesbian, it's that I expected your girlfriend to look...you know...like YOU." (she meant feminine and in make-up etc.)

Anyone else had this happen where folks assume your partner must also be Femme just because you are?