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-   -   Open Letter: Dear Femme (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413)

evolveme 11-30-2009 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzSabra (Post 14378)
Someone call for me?

I don't even know where to start.....Great thread e, I'm still reading.
Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

:lips:,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

SassyLeo 11-30-2009 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14384)
It makes me so happy to hear you share this, Lovely Sassy. Knowing that an adult mother and daughter exist somewhere and speak of this kind of relating to one another fills me with something profound. I can only hope that my daughter and I will continue to have the kind of relationship that we do, and that it will evolve into a woman-to-woman relating someday.

My feeling that she does not belong to me - that I do not possess her - is almost a spiritual point of view. I recognize her wholeness. I honor it.

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.
Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff :)). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right :)

evolveme 11-30-2009 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyLeo (Post 14396)
Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff :)). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right :)
I have been amazed by the story of you and your dad, but this is the first time I've seen you write about your mother. I didn't know that she was not strictly heterosexual, or that you might share something so intimately in common with her. What an amazing story you have, and clearly, what an amazing mother... and mother/daughter bond.

:)

evolveme 11-30-2009 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isadora (Post 14345)

I don't always need to be understood by anyone but me and I want to be accepted as who I am as a individual human being. I don't always want to be healed, I want to be heard. I don't always want to have to define myself, I just want to be seen. I don't always want to explain my choices, I just want them accepted as fully mine. I fight to keep my Shirley Valentine alive.

I am a a bell curve not a duality. My self is fluid. I hope it is always that way.
Isadora, your whole post was beautiful, but this part, I especially loved and related to. Thank you so much for posting it here. :stillheart:

Lynn 11-30-2009 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14384)
This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.
That's what I'm trying to say, I think. To be honored isn't the same as "validated." I want to validate myself, without relying on the approval and acceptance of others. And, it isn't even that I want to be honored for WHO I am. I want to be honored THAT I am. Does that make any sense? I agree, absolutely, that we should all be accepted for how we identify and who we say we are. But, I'm trying to address something deeper than that.

blush 11-30-2009 09:07 PM
[QUOTE=Arwen;14200]I have to say that since I am fortunate enough to know that fella you are partnered with...I think he could do it.

No. I know he can do it. He's a passionate thinker. It may take him a bit to get his thoughts in a order that is pleasing to him, but once he does...it will blow you out of the water.

Grin, but you already know that about him.

Word. And one of the advantages of being friends before lovers is that you have known each other outside of that relationship role. But yeah, I totally agree. Obviously. :)

always2late 11-30-2009 09:08 PM
I think we do judge each other harshly. In fact, I put forth that, at times, we judge ourselves and our sisters more harshly than any "outside" source. How often are we prone to "label" someone else..and yet become indignant when we are labeled? A straight friend once told me "Women do not dress for men, they dress for other women." And that shocked me somewhat. But when I examined it, I found it to be quite true. Why are we so eager to pass judgement, good or bad, on each other?

blush 11-30-2009 09:10 PM
And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

Diva 11-30-2009 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blush (Post 14502)
And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

Here.
<hands blush a fork>

julieisafemme 11-30-2009 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14240)
This is precisely the way that I see it.

We lose our autonomy only to the degree that we allow it.

And as Arwen goes on to say, particularly for mothers (and lovers), we may have to disabuse our children and partners of the notion that we ever belonged to them. I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.
Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

Arwen 11-30-2009 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 14386)
Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

:lips:,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW GROSS! Gag!

grin. Not really. I am uncomfortable when it is overt sexual flirting from another femme directed at me. It reminds me of how inadequate I am as a lesbian. (whole 'nother thread...don't go there)

However if you brain flirt with me, you're on...my list already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blush (Post 14502)
And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.
This was really really funny to me because right before I read this post by you, I was thinking something very similar. It's been a long time since I've seen a thread go this many pages with nearly no uproar to speak of.

What is WRONG with you people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by julieisafemme (Post 14517)
I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.
Here's a thought for you to try on. See what you think.

Maybe they are harsh because you are doing what they cannot. Maybe we are crueler and meaner and try to rein in harder those that do what we secretly wish we could?

Arwen 12-01-2009 12:22 AM
Label me. Define me & you starve yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box with cold words & the box will be your coffin. ---Rumi

Do you think Rumi was reading this thread before we wrote it?

Lynn 12-01-2009 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 14636)
Label me. Define me & you starve yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box with cold words & the box will be your coffin. ---Rumi

Do you think Rumi was reading this thread before we wrote it?
Shit. Yes. The little hairs on my arms are standing on end.

Bit 12-01-2009 09:03 AM
Dear Goddess, I'm now nine pages behind and the convo has moved far, far past the place where I left off... I am afraid that if I start responding to things back on page three, page four, it will be a derailment of sorts. This is going to take some thinking....

apretty 12-01-2009 09:38 AM
from the first page of this thread i've kept thinking: "master's tools/master's house"

so, i went looking for more Audre Lorde, (sure she was trying to get in on the conversation/at least in my head)

"There's always someone asking you to underline one piece of yourself -- whether it's Black, woman, mother, dyke, teacher, etc. -- because that's the piece that they need to key in to. They want to dismiss everything else."

and

"I am who I am, doing what I came to do, acting upon you like a drug or chisel or remind you of your me-ness as I discover you in myself."

i feel like this, especially the last quote, is how we all fit together. (and it feels fucking fantastic)

apretty 12-01-2009 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolveme (Post 13259)
In the last week, here and elsewhere, heated discussions have arisen as to the overwhelming male-centric nature of our on-line spaces, our communities. We have come into those discussions to address this concern, always as a voice of support. Support for those who feel challenged (trans and male-id’d people). Support for those who feel unseen (women-identified butches).
does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

Apocalipstic 12-01-2009 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apretty (Post 14769)
does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?
Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

apretty 12-01-2009 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 14774)
Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?
i don't fancy myself co-dependent (tho i've read the books and can highly relate to lots of the markers of co-dependency. ha) but i do feel that, personally, my 'femme' is being wrongfully 'accused'--and i'm thinking on that, why i feel defensive/protective and why i can't necessarily hear the part about how 'femme' has played a role in creating a male-centric environment here/elsewhere. whatever that's about, i find myself resisting it/not wanting to take on that responsibility...

Diva 12-01-2009 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by julieisafemme (Post 14517)
Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

apretty 12-01-2009 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva (Post 14805)
We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.
and you *should* write it. i believe all of our stories are valuable and a testament to where we've been and how far we need to go (as a society).


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