Ummm
 

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing.

I don't know Snow.

I guess because when a person who is posting, is called out by someone, like you did as you should have, then there are more posts made saying the same thing.....it can FEEL to them as though they are being bullied.

You know how people talk about the "pack" mentality??? Which makes me want to pull my hair out!! It's that feeling that ok, one person asked me, then another, then another, then another, then another. And they are all asking the same thing. To that one poster....It can feel like they are being jumped on.

I am not saying that they SHOULD feel that way, or that I feel that way, I'm just saying it could.

Imagine in real life being in the same position. You are somewhere, you say something you think is totally inocuous and then all of a sudden a bunch of people turn at you, at the same time and start asking you about what you said. It would be scary to have a bunch of people pointing at you and saying.....explain, explain, EXPLAIN. Like the "mean girl" crap that gets thrown around on here too.


I don't think any post is detremental to the converstaion. Well unless it's clear as a fucking bell the person is just a dumbass. And I think it's obvious that there is a difference between, not there yet and just an asshole.


And note, I'm not saying that the two posts ARE attacking, just that for some folks it might feel attacking. I can't explain why certain people feel attacked but I can say that I do understand.

This place can be a scary place. There are so many really smart, eloquent folks on this site who express themselves wonderfully. For those that don't feel they are at that same level of......awareness?? It could get intimidating. Then when they post something they think is totally innocent and they get called on it....again, and again, and again, it's too much.

It's THEIR thing. It's not up to anyone to make anyone comfortable. But I'm just saying I get how they could feel jumped on. And then express that.


I don't have a dog in this fight. I just feel bad for everyone.


j

Ironic
 

Isn't it ironic that when a Femme steps and says hey. stop it. with your isms.


She's painted out as a "mean girl"


You never see this happen with butch/trans/masculine folk


Matter of fact one of the masculine folk came in here and accused the folks who are in here of attacking the submissive Femmes..


Yanno julie, I'll be honest.

That shit is old. Tiring. It's deflection.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've also had to deal with shit like this in real time situations, at dinner even. (ISMS)

And no I don't stay silent and 95% of the time, the person who spit out the ism, gets defensive, weird and turns it around on me.

People fear progression, I get it now at 43 that doesn't mean because of their fear, that I will be silenced.

I hope you realize I am not saying I believe you, or anyone, at this moment is being a "mean girl" cause I've never thought that. I have seen the "mean girl" but not here and not on this site. I didn't use mean girl as a way to narrow it down to gender. It's a common way of describing a specific pattern. It could be a girl or a guy.

I think Gemme made a great point in her last post. There do seem to be two discussions going on at the same time. Confusing to say the least.

I'm not trying to say that I feel anyone is right or wrong, just that there are two ways to look at things and it makes it easier for ME to try to see things from both sides. Then I don't get my feelings hurt and take things personally.

I agree this shit is old. Which is why I said something in the first place.


j

dee, for me it has nothing to do with if someone chooses to be a homemaker or other role in their life. Nothing at all. I am not sure what is being lost in translation.

I guess the other way to look at is:

There are a few folks who dont get where I am coming from, and asking me for more information or to clarify something I said.
Its not just one person who is having a hard time understanding what I said.

Trust me when i didnt post what i really wanted to post, when i said i was waiting for an answer, that would have been attacking, because for the life of me, I cant imagine why any would would want to come in here and be an asshole, there are plenly of other places for that to happen on the web. So i was going with I dont understand and in doing that, you didnt understand where I was coming from.

Its all in the form of perception!

I call it engaging brain before engaging fingers.

Ah ok, I am a bit confused still, but I most definitely see the way you live as a very powerful choice.

Mike, I'm gonna try this one more time.

If you felt like re-reading my posts, you would see I tried to explain that to me personally, I did not see your post as what you seem to think I am saying I did.

I tried to say it COULD be seeing as and then gave reasons why I felt it COULD be seen as that. Not once did I say I actually saw it as rude, snarky, attacking.....insert whatever. I only spoke of how it COULD be taken by people who felt insecure and indimiated already.

It is absolutely all about perception. Which is exactly what I was talking about.

Julie I get that, but sometimes you know, it is just what it is, nothing more, nothing less. people have to own their own stuff.

thanks

Well Femmsational, I certainly have a completely different read on Soon and Mike's comments.

When I read DMW saying he wants a place to just be an asshole, my thoughts in my head were wow, really, males have the whole world to be an asshole in.

I thought Soon's comment was very straightforward with absolutely no snark.

And when I read Mike's comment, it felt good to see another male paying attention and wanting to hear more about this- something I appreciate.

That's how I read it.

Amen!!!

I could not agree more


:rrose:

I'm not even going to go there - I have no desire to expand this, and shouldn't have brought it up to begin with. It was not someone sharing his views.

This actually threw me too. I don't consider the lifestyle being discussed as a "kink". The "you do the car repairs, take the trash out, open my door, and in return I'll cook and clean and pamper you when you get home at the end of the day" is not kink. It's a relationship or lifestyle dynamic. I don't even think it's role playing or mimicking "50's traditional values", and I can say that because I've lived that life, and it wasn't because I found it kinky, or glamorous - it was what fit me and my partner at the time. He took on all the "traditional" binary "male" roles in the relationship, and I took on the "female" ones, except that he cooked sometimes. And before anyone thinks about taking a torch to me, please reread where I referenced this as "TRADITIONAL binary gender roles". I'm not implying butches can't do X and femmes can't do X. I can do whatever the fuck I want to, and usually do, including riding motorcycles, getting tattoos, and playing poker. But I'm not going to pretend that in some relationships I've been in, those "traditional binary gender roles" didn't set in on their own, organically. That doesn't mean I was kept from doing anything - I am and was still my own person. I don't like taking out the trash, or fixing things around the house. I felt blessed that my partner liked doing all those things. But I never once saw any of this as "kink."

It isn't just that we have different themes running through this conversation, but I think the latest conversation is that some people want to have a safe place to post without being challenged. I get it, but that's not what public forums are about. I think there are two solutions: discuss in person, in private, or in a private online chat room made up of people that are like minded or who won't challenge you; or post in the Listening thread, where nobody is allowed to respond. It's not perfect, but nothing can be all things to everyone, and since this is mostly a public site, this obviously is not a place where people can post their opinions and thoughts without responses.

Yes, I am posting this in hopes that all of us may pause and consider our agenda. BTW, I don't think "agenda" is necessarily a bad thing. I just want to know what is really motivating some of my words and actions.

Is my number one priority making this world and in that this community a better and safe place for women?

How do I realize, materialize this goal for women and others if they want help in doing so?

Am I overly invested in being right? Do I want to look the most intelligent? Do I want everyone to notice me? Maybe I do. I ask myself these questions because I am a member of this community that posts often and I do see myself as part of this community. In my mind that makes me responsible to assist in the well being of women, full realization of womens rights, respect in words and actions for women and for the education of "others."

How can I do this? First through my own actions, thoughts, and beliefs. Secondly, with some willingness to put my fear and ego aside. Third take action and try to treat others as I would like to be treated.

I'm only using Gemme's post as a starting point to clarify what happened and try to maybe get people to understand where all this came from.

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

I don't think any single person here was in the wrong for anything they said. I do think it was wrong for people to jump to conclusions and make assumptions first. But it happens and forums are where we can talk it out and understand each other. Everyone has different ways they live their lives. No one is denying that right. Some women like to take care of their partner, some want to be taken care of, and others want an equal 50/50 split. No one is wrong. Assuming a 'June Cleaver' Femme wants to give up her rights and live like it's the 1950s based on one small comment is not much different than how some straight people assume that being gay means you like to sleep around with everyone and have no morals based solely on the small fact that you are attracted to someone who is the same gender as you are.

Thank you for listening and I hope this may have helped sort this all out, at least a little bit.

I think I do partially get it. Like if I said, wow I love the 1920's they had such great music and clothes. Then people come back and say OMG BullDog how could you say that? What about WWI, The Great Depression was about to hit, all the oppression- racism, sexism, etc. Then I'm like- geeze I like the music and clothes I didn't say I love everything about it or want to live exactly that way.

With the whole 1950's thing, June Cleaver, OFOS- it feels like we are hit with it time and time again and it feels stifling and oppressive to me. Maybe because I lived a quasi-version of it. I think the June Cleaver thread is quite enlightening and expresses many of the thoughts I feel. I get that we can all have our own favorite eras and role models, but these just seem to be predominant ones that get held out as the standard over and over again. It feels like a very white upper middle class heterosexual model that gets held up as the standard that most of us could never live up to or want to live up to. Perhaps the answer is to just go to our separate corners. I really don't know.

thank you!
 

Thank you for the following Vintage and Uniques and everybody else posting in regards to what you find attractive in FTMs!

Brute it is a great thing that many FTMs are aware where they come from and the steps it takes to get to a comfortable place within oneself knowing and feeling all they do with regards to feminism and what it is like to be a female in this world. You say Julie has played a major role in your alignment and how you feel in regards to the journey, and your Mom called you "son." I have to say many femmes in my life and friends have helped me along this journey as well. They have pointed out things to me about myself that made me realize who I am and who I am to become. This helps immensely in gaining one's confidence and moving along the journey to become a FTM and align ones body perhaps and spirit to match how one may feel.

Your post definitely was not a derail.. maybe on the current discussion happening here but most definitely is what the thread is all about, FTMs and the attraction of them. Thanks for your sentiments.

My question for FTMs (in regards to attraction) is :

Have people in your life helped you along that journey we make as FTMs in realizing, aligning, transforming, etc? ..

and for others:

Have you been able to help FTMs with their journey in realizing, aligning, transforming, and how has it affected or changed them or yourself?

For me, it's comments like the above, people that understand where we come from and how we feel, acceptance, and this thread in general that help someone such as myself move about comfortably in this life being who I am.

oyyyy not sure how June Cleaver and all her glory got in this thread, same as 50s, and kink. . I understand there are FTMs that enjoy 50s lifestyle, kink, etc.. but still, what attracks people to FTMs? June Cleaver probably is not a fan of FTMs.. Not all FTMs are into the 50s lifestyle or kink, but would this be something you (you general) need in an FTM to find them attractive? For me, that would just be a part of their lifestyle and not what defines them or maybe it does define them, hell I don't know. I guess that's another thread, maybe? :blink:

Yes!!!! ------------

I think I brought "kink" into the conversation - I think I also qualified it as "some level of kink" - I apologize for any offense. There is a whole community of people who come at this from a 50's household kinky point of view, I must have had that on my brain. Medieval Fairs aren't kink either. I'm not sure bringing kink into the discussion invalidates what I was saying. Actually whether it's kink or not, although times have changed - there were women who felt empowered even back then, and weren't happy about the changes.

As far as being an asshole - yes, born-men have the whole world in which to be an asshole. This may be less so for trans-men to different degrees depending on their circumstances. I believe we are ALL assholes. I *think* I understand what DMW was trying to say - I wasn't thrilled with the "especially submissive femme" reference. Really, he has a right to want to vent, to be his "asshole" self. But in a thread such as this with a large number of femmes - not wise. DMW would be better off choosing another thread, or maybe creating his own, where other guys in similar shoes who have gone through or are going through the process can call him out or support him from our perspective. I can say it is very hard at times to be surrounded by male privilege, not be perceived as male, and confuse the lack of receipt of male privilege with lack of recognition as male. VERY hard, and often not resolvable until one is perceived as male socially.

For me, I became an even bigger feminist the more I was perceived as male. Males sometimes see me as betraying them, women are generally confused when I advocate - and sadly, if they knew I was trans I would not be taken as seriously.

And yet people love the renaissance fair and flock to it and dress up in period costume, but it doesn't stir up as much... stuff... as this person's post did. Talk about an oppressive time period!

That being said I think I need to remove myself from this whole thread until (if) it un-derails itself! LOL

Ummm
 

Actually it started like this.


I don't balk, the people I date/own/fuck aren't stable...


Hence my post after those particular posts.

Unfortunately, the late night editing of my random feelings and thoughts regarding how i feel personally...got cut up by me, without me
recognizing, until now, that what i had originally posted got hosed up....specifically, My point b) isn't even there. So, i don't even recall what i originally posted or what thought processes got left out or unfinished. So, the post wound up being even more confusing or misrepresentitive of what i was trying to convey. I do recognize that barfing up my feelings onto this website has the capacity to open up a can of worms and cause confusion and strife and bring up emotions. I must say...that i didn't post those feelings with a purpose to get a response from others or to be noticed by anyone nor to try and get attention or heard or what have you. But, this is a public forum. So, i should expect a reaction, i suppose. I do have to take responsibility for what i have posted, eventhough my late night...not well thought out blab didn't come across original because i cut it up and lost it. That doesn't necessarily mean that i would be understood the way i wanted to be. And i think i may have offended people. I don't like that. I don't have an insecurity issue with it either.
i am wanting to answer people's questions but at the same time deal with my own emotions and feelings and find the words as to why i am bothered and what is disturbing me. So, selfishly, i have to focus on what irks me before i try and clear up what was originally posted by me or answer the questions. I may never be able to find that original thought or feeling to my post.
I just want to apologize for blabbing and then not being able to clear it up sooner rather than later.
I think for me...what it comes down to is this...being perceived as a previleged white male ...in society has its advantages...yes. However, it has it's drawbacks, also. When people look at me...they assume...ah...he is a white male and this is how his life has been...And it just isn't so.
(i guess it is like the "invisibility" feeling that femmes have and have to put up with)

And so, when i come here to this website ...it is as though i expect more understanding and some kind of relief from this community. And that isn't necessarily fair...especially if many do not know me well here or don't have any kind of foundation of that awareness (of who i am) to draw upon. That is asking a lot. It really is.
In addition, if i don't explain where i am coming from...then how the hell would
anyone know that....hey...that asshole remark that he just made...(I prefer Donna Reed and or Alice Kramden)...I may like Donna Reed in a dress and all...but, i do not expect her to go and get my morning paper or my coffee because i demand that... not unless she wants to. I want her to go and get my morning paper and my coffee because...it is what she wants to do because it makes her happy to make me happy.

I do want to apologize for hurting anyone's feelings. I am sorry for that sincerely.
DMW

Originally Posted by Darbonaire
They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

& guess what Snow....I stand by my statement totally! Doors should get held open...<in MY world> Chairs pulled back..<in MY world>.....Common courtesy, manners also...<in MY world> Now, if that makes you feel oppressed or your feminity threatened..<which I doubt btw having read many of your posts...lol> oh well. YOUR world is YOUR world & MINE is MINE. I don't post to offend anyone, but, if I can't, or anyone can't post what they feel or think on these boards, then is this any better than the outside world where we all are subjected to censorship etc.? Now no, people should not be allowed to post derogatory things about others on here, but we are ALL entitled to our opinions, yes?

Out in the r/t world we seek people who have similar interests, similar tastes in life.....common ground as it were. We are all looking to find like minded souls to travel this journey with. Well, at at least I am.

Now then...back to our regularly scheduled programming.....

I came in to see if the thread got back on point. I see it hasn't but I will say this is how I feel as well. Also why I've stayed away from this whole discussion (well, until now lol).

Umm, please don't
 

No, quoting me was quite enough....LOL..& believe me...."dimwit" isn't at all what I think you are...I actually find your posts enlightening, well phrased, & intelligent. Whatever the "issue" is in here, I personally wish to get back to the "issue" that is the title of the room / post.....my ego speaking there....LOL

One question in ALL honesty here
 

How is someone to know other's "opinions" will get fired up if they come into a room & then post "their opinion" ? Seriously, if I had the time to read back over 2 yrs worth of posts "maybe" I could tell where a sore spot or subject is....but really......there are folks out here...FTM & Femme who feel as you do, & who feel as I & others do.....I don't believe anyone was out to start some dicussion about the 50's....but hey....it's all ok by me.

Ummm
 

are you telling me I should move along? Your postings are very silencing.

You post feels very head patting..

Care to clarify?

Oh and your ego, that shouldn't take presidence over my posts or anyone elses post who don't agree with your way of thinking.

You know some of us are just trying to make an effort to clarify and understand each other better.

Opening and doors and such- "50s style" FTMS aren't the only ones with manners.

I don't quite get this some of guys just want to be guys stuff since there are plenty of FTMs and trans guys here that don't act like that way at all.

Do you carry that chip on your shoulder ALL the time...My God...so I guess compliments...even sincere seem to be "dismissing" to you?...LOL...wow, <making a note to myelf on that one> & since I believe I saw a post by the MOD back aways about getting BACK to the original theme & starting a seperate room for this discussion...well, pardon me..I thought we would be doing that....wrong again I guess...Y'all enjoy the discussing..I'll come back when it's back on point.

I have read through more of this thread than I found comfortable. IMO there is a lot of passive aggressive remarks, A LOT of judging of people's choice of lifestyle/kink/behaviors & all around misunderstandings on an epic level. IMO this is a perfect example of how some topics are just too complicated to carry out in a purely written, moderated forum.
ALL OF THIS MY OPINION & VIEW ONLY.

I for one would like to get back to the original intent of this thread;

What attracts you to FTMs?