Masculine of Center -- the term
 

This controversy came up around the Butch Voices conference in 2010 (I think). I wasn't there and did not participate. I just read about it afterwards. I read some of the talk about it here, but did not find the thread.

Anyway, a defense of the term was recently quoted in the Race and Racism thread. I responded for a couple of reasons, but one was that there was no mention of the butch women who have taken issue with the term.

I will point out that I do not know the people from Butch Voices or the people who have criticized the term.

I do not like the term -- MoC. I hope it is not gaining currency. I do think there are some advantages to it. One that was mentioned in the article posted in the Race thread is that it includes men, cis-men, and therefore is a way of building alliances with them.

Here is an article from one of the critics of the term -- part of the BV controversy -- http://butchenough.wordpress.com/201...pe-not-a-line/

A quote from that
And the criticism that the blog article quoted in the Race thread was responding to --

The very smart defense of it on terms relating to race -- is here -- http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...040#post730040

My response is the next post. I am sure there are a number of other articles out and about.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it? Do you like it? Would you adopt it? Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?

If you are femme or otherwise don't ID as someone who might be included in MoC, what are your thoughts?

I do not want this thread to privilege the response of any person, regardless of gender or other ID. That might seem wrong too those whose ID is MoC or butch, trans or ? but that's the way I'd prefer this thread to go.

I'm still waiting for for a concrete definition of what constitutes "center". Until I can get a reliable definition I can not use it. I know what left of center and right of center is, but in gender it really doesn't make much since to me.

I still have no real clue what this word means. I found this defintion on the Brown Boi Project website: http://www.brownboiproject.org/mission_core_values.html

"Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008) "


Ok, so why isn't just the word masculine used? Meaning, the definition of the term is people that "tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum". So, why would people not just use the word masculine to describe themselves if that is the definition of the term "masculine of center"?

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

well, my center is not masculine. i am butch, indeed. but not the center of my being. that is way more personal, much deeper than butch or moc. that's how i see it. sure, i own the energy, ... but it's not my center.

i really don't know anything about the word, ... why it was "invented". somebody felt the need to have it, ... so there you go!

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

Got it! Makes sense...the whole naming principle...it being the guiding part of the definition of an identity may bother some...and you are suggesting more likely butch women than other masculine identities (I too saw the evidence that it bothered this identity more than others). Thanks!

Center is offensive...
 

This came up in a conversation yesterday...interesting that I've spent so much time in my life just "being" and now I'm a being using dangerous and marginalized terms in an effort to describe a jumping off point about being me.

I have always said "I am me" . I know internally where and who I am, but in order for the world to know, and in order for me to be able to parlay verbally my 'orientations' and proclivities I utilize words that describe a jumping off point, a baseline, a point of easy though perhaps inhospitable (?) recognition so that I can then direct this trajectory to define ME, to start a trajectory AWAY FROM CENTER that describes who I am. Though I have not used the term masculine of center (what is center?) I do start conversations from a recognizable waypoint (center?) .

And there is my conundrum, who recognizes center? Is it mainstream? That smacks of patriarchal archetype. Is it working class that recognizes "center"? I struggle for words to start an association. I build a box, only to break out of it. Thats what we do, isnt it? DisAssociate ourselves from center as we vector ourselves through recognized (though not necessarily accepted) definitions and identifications.

Is that restrictive? Or a jumping off point to further build upon what we already know...masculine of center. The more I read and say the words masculine of center, the more offensive it feels...I think its the "center" part.
So whats the alternative in this Brave New World? If not masculine of center what words do we use in an effort to verbally project our departure from an exclusionary, elitist, patriarchal "normal" called center ?

GREAT thread, thank you for starting it.

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?


this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one (f) I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

Feminine of center is a definite no-go for me. It lacks an identity, as you stated in your post. Femme is in every fiber of my being. Taking that away is not an option. I can relate to what others are feeling about "masculine of center".

I am involved in these conversations in many places and in my own life. When I first heard the term MoC I too was "What center" but then I had more than one conversation in-person and on-line. I agree that for me it is not a umbrella term, but I do agree that it is a identity many I know use. I looked up the history of the term Butch and below is one example.

"Prior to the middle of the 20th century in Western culture, homosexual societies were mostly underground or secret, which makes it difficult to determine how long butch and femme roles have been practiced by women. Photographs exist of butch-femme couples in the decade of 1910–1920 in the United States; they were then called "transvestites""

All the terms we have come to know or use for ourselves come out of a medical industry supporting difference through bad science. They come from a White Eurocentric Heteronormative relationship to bodies and the need to gender and define those bodies and identities for markers to police.

One of the struggles that we all come back to is the lack of language and the attachment to what is already in the lexicon. We will never all come into agreement in my life time, but the power to name is fundamental to self, class and race always impact the relationship to power and naming. An example is the letters LGBT , I write them TBLG why, because the LGBT Power/Money players do not have any authority in my life. No one is in-charge, yet money and power seem to give folks the ability to say who and what community is and those of us outside of that fight for visibility. I am not pro-assimilation, I am a prison abolitionist, I am not a morning person, I am white, queer and masculine only because of the need for others comfort, because when I say masculine or butch it is and will never the same as someone else.

I was at the community meeting at the last BV, I participated because difference should not mean to discount, judge, or name others. This is hard and painful work for me and the communities I move in. I have an intimate relationship with the pain of being a body marked as Butch by lesbians and the larger world. What is painful is the knowledge that I was told more times than I can count that how I looked was not dyke, If I wanted a man I date a man, the 70's-90's brought us more clarity on the body, sex, and identity so yes the expansion of knowledge allows for change, I for one have a hard time with change, I know that those naming themselves MoC have no more legitimacy than those called butch to the process of naming others. So maybe the work is to name ourselves and give others the same right.

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

yeah, I hear what Corkey and Medusa are saying in different ways, questioning what is "the center."

It's like we used to say "a spectrum" of identities, an arc, and now the ends of the arc are touching, and it's a circle. Without a "center," just has a circle has an infinite number of sides.

It's confusing, though. I often use the term, "stereotypically" male or female or "culturally defined" as male or female, masculate or feminine.

It's like I don't want to get in trouble for making myself the arbiter of where that center lies.

i've never been just totally in like of lesbian, dyke, queer, etc. we need labels for others and ourselves. i'm older now lol. i think that's the difference for me. i'm not looking for words/labels to identify with. i'm ok with change, ... it's a must at times. i'd make a guess and say that somebody didn't like butch, ... it felt outdated to them, ... and they wanted something to connect with, new. i hope it worked. sincerely.

I'd like to submit too that "mascunlinity" may not define some Butch women who view their way of being, not as "masculine", but just as a Butch brand of Feminine.

Hmmm
 

I personally do not care nor like that Dude, here is why:

It will create a heirarchy amongst Women, there are already enough ridiculous expectations on what defines feminine. Plus we all know sometimes feminine is born into a male bodied Woman.

So for *me* I wouldn't care for it, I certainly would NOT attend any kind of Femme Conference if all of a sudden someone decided to change the wording or add Feminine of Center.

*I* feel that's how BV pushed butch women and their voices out.


That's just my feeling on it which by the way is not up for argument. :hk2:

feminine-of-center is a pretty common term in the femme of color circles i run in, used similarly to masculine-of-center. i view it as an umbrella term, not necessarily an identity (most masculine-of-center folks don't -id- as moc, they id as stud, butch, aggressive, etc.). i understand that it is problematic because it can reinforce the gender binary. at the same time, i think in some communities these designations are helpful for some people. in queer communities where folks identify with queer masculinity, sometimes masculine of center can be helpful (likewise with feminine of center - in my circles this is inclusive of cis femmes, trans women, femme men, gq femmes, etc.). and also can be a useful contrast to androgynous or genderqueer (although some gq folks also identify as butch or femme. not all do). i know plenty of masculine-of-center folks who identify as women. and i know some feminine-of-center folks who identify as men. personally, i'm ambivalent. i use the term if i am trying to communicate something specific in a group where it's commonly understood...otherwise i really don't use it that much.

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

some background on the term and about b. cole, the woman-identified butch who coined it:

http://oaklandlocal.com/article/quee...wn-boi-project

this article by sinclair sexsmith has some background on how butch voices came to use the term, including a diagram of one way to understand "center":
http://www.sugarbutch.net/2011/08/a-...omment-page-1/

I'll have to see if I can find the dicusssion, it's been a long time ago (maybe 5 or 6 years ago), but it was actually suggested at one point that "Butch" was a racist label for some of the same reasons. (that it was primarly used by white people)

I think that the intention to make a term that felt more inclusive for the BV conferences was a good one at heart but the way in which it was carried out was highly problematic for a lot of Butches. I know I read some really interesting discussion on several blogs where masculine Lesbians of Color who did not use the term "Butch" or "Stud" talked about feeling erased by many attempts to create language around their specific identities.

butch voices' website clearly says

"What identities are under the BUTCH Voices umbrella?
Butch, Stud, Aggressive (AG), Macha, Dom, Tomboi, genderqueer, two-spirit, Trans men who identify as Masculine of Center and all other similar identities."

the first descriptor on the list is "butch." "masculine of center" is added onto a list of identities. to me, the term is self-selecting - like queer. if i hated the term queer and didn't want it used in reference to me, BUT it was commonly understood that queer spaces were inclusive of me as a same-gender-loving person and/or those spaces said "we welcome queer people, same-gender loving people, lesbians, gays..." - at that point, to me, it is semantics. masculine of center applies to anyone who wants to identify that way. some people use it to be inclusive of butches, studs, aggressives, etc. when speaking. not everyone likes it. not everyone likes gender non-conforming, but if i say the words "gender non-conforming" people will more or less get that i mean folks who transgress gender boundaries and that is inclusive of trans and butch people. it doesn't mean everyone has to like it or use it in reference to themselves. welcome to alphabet soup land - everyone constantly bitches about which word to use.

this term was also used before butch voices chose to adopt it, and is used in many communities outside of butch voices, and in my understanding, this thread was to talk about the term itself, not butch voices. if a lot of butches don't want butch voices to use the term...that is an internal conversation to have in the butch voices community. but that doesn't have any bearing on how the term is used outside of butch voices.

i've been researching the history of the arguments over the term, and i am repeatedly struck by the fact that this is a term that is predominantly meaningful in poc queer communities, and many qpoc feel alienated in white lesbian, queer, and trans* spaces, and almost all of the backlash against the term has happened AFTER predominantly white spaces have started using it in an effort to be more inclusive of qpoc, and the majority of the backlash is from white folks.

I would also submit that Masculinity and Femininity aren't necessarily on opposite ends of the spectrum or opposite sides of a circle from one another.

Attempts to diagram gender often end up with a big "M" on one end and a big "F" on the other end with multiple identities getting plotted somewhere in between. This is hierarchal to me and often ends up feeling erasing of Trans identities.

I think in a perfect world, gender would be a 3D pool where all of our various molecules and atoms bump and collide into one another, exist within and outside of one another, and gain strength and power from one another.

http://hellyeahagender.tumblr.com/faq

neutrois is also helpful to research... http://neutrois.com/

i'll stop post-spamming after this - i just wanted to provide some context for where the term "masculine of center" (and "feminine of center") came from and how it is used.

http://brownboiproject.org/BBP%20Tow...nd%20Whole.pdf has a lot of info about brown boi's approach to understanding masculinity and gender and might be helpful for those wondering about the context of "masculine of center" and its meaning in (some) poc communities.

to me...masculine of center is no better or worse an umbrella term than queer, lgbt, gender non-conforming, etc. they're all problematic and everyone is bound to find something wrong with some of them, or not want to use them. but they can be useful for some people to communicate some things within some contexts.

okay, i lied, one more quote...

from the article that was posted in the race and racism thread (this is the part directly following the part martina quoted).

i don't have any good explanation for the word "center," personally, except for the fact that in the past gender has been understood as a spectrum, with masculinity on one end and femininity on the other, and some people still understand it that way. even if they acknowledge that it's imperfect. when we do gender 101 at the lgbt muslim retreat, we use the "genderbread" man, which makes heavy use of spectrum imagery to explain sex, gender, presentation, orientation, and all other sorts of things. assuming that everyone is on a spectrum, or occupies only one place on a spectrum, or isn't off in the abyss somewhere, is highly problematic. yet it is also primary way that sexual orientation and gender identity are communicated in the dominant euro-american culture.

while i was washing dishes, an analogy occurred to me. i don't know if this is helpful or not for folks who are resistant of any space they interact in being labeled "masculine of center." but...i hate the term "bisexual." i detest it. i think it is biologically essentializing and it marginalizes trans people. i don't feel that it describes me at all and i don't want it anywhere near me and it makes me feel 1000 different kinds of gross.

at the same time, i am a femme who is attracted to more than one gender. in that way, i share the lived experience with bisexual-id'ed people of being attracted to more than one gender. i share the lived experience of being labeled slutty, confused, not gay enough, not straight enough. in the lgbt acronym, i don't really feel all that included, but i understand more or less that the "b" is supposed to be inclusive of people like me. many of the main resources, publications, etc. about people who share my lived experiences use the term "bisexual." i may hate it and think it is a shitty descriptor, but if i want to interact with people who have similar lived experiences in mainstream spaces, "bisexual" is a commonly accepted descriptor, so i've learned to deal with it and try not to cringe too much.

from my understanding, the term "masculine of center" originated from the belief that butches, studs, transmen, aggressives, bois, etc. share similar lived experiences of transgressing gender boundaries and being marginalized because they present in ways traditionally understood as masculine but were assigned female at birth (and many still identify as female/woman). there are also many differences between them, but they share some commonalities.

i think it's also relevant to point out that the butch voices conference is called BUTCH voices, and the first identity listed under "what identities is this conference for" is BUTCH. not "masculine of center." so i don't really understand the freak-out over butch voices being taken over by the term "masculine of center." they didn't change the name to masculine of center voices...? they just attempted to be more inclusive by adding a term that has currency among butches/studs/aggressives/bois of color.

to me, building solidarity with other people who share similar struggles and lived experiences is more important than worrying about which label is used. i agree with the quote from the piece that was posted in the race thread that abstract battles over labels can sometimes get in the way of doing meaningful solidarity work. i don't think that we should never problematize labels. but...it seems like this battle has gotten in the way of building connections between predominantly white butch communities and masculine-of-center communities of color.

I'm totally down with the work, it's always the details that are the problem. I don't think using a descriptor that is vague at best is abstract. *shrugs* I don't know what the answer is, or will be, but I'm open to the work of inclusion for all Humans. Thanks for the attempt at enlightening me.

no, i was not attempting to tell you what you could and could not talk about and what you could and could not take offense to.

i was attempting to provide another perspective in this thread in which the predominant view has been that "masculine of center" is a bad term, and most of the discussion has been by people outside of the community in which masculine of center was coined/is used.

i accept that you don't want the term used in reference to you. i'm not trying to police what you can and cannot post about. i apologize if it came off that way.

yes, in a way, i am saying "this is the real world, get used to it" - because it sucks and it is still good to have these arguments but the reality is there has NEVER been a term in lgbt/queer/butch/femme/insert label here history that has made anybody happy or been unproblematic. that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it at all. i just...think there should be an element of realism, which is, every single conversation about labels in the history of the world, and this site, has resulted in disagreement. you don't have to agree with me that people should get used to that, i just think it's helpful to point out that that's the nature of language. i'm not saying anyone has to agree. your mileage may vary.

i am really, really sorry if i came off as directive. that wasn't my intention and i fucked up.

This conversation has made me think today.

To be honest, I rarely think about labels and identities. I think that may be because the only place in my life where there seems to be any need for it is here. I am sure others have occasion to identify themselves as some specific label out in the world. I simply do not. When I am here (on this specific website) I find it is easier from a conversational point of view to have for myself, and to see in others, what general area of the gender spectrum they see themselves. If someone specifies a gender pronoun preference, I respect that and the rest of the time just leave gender out of it.

Beyond conversation in a BF online community, I have not needed it. I walk down the street wearing my face and chosen clothing style and it seems that to the degree needed, folks figure out what they will think and do so. If someone is labeling me in their own mind it could include many things, I cannot change their assessment of what they see. They will also categorize my race, age, height, etc. No one is forcing an identity on me beyond what they see visually, and how they process that through their own filters. When they get to know me, their assessments may change and include variations of gender. I never know.

Offline, in the 'real' world, I have never felt the need for a highly refined label. I suppose if I went to an event of some sort and someone slapped a "Hello - I'm a __________" on my lapel without asking if I wanted that; then maybe it would matter to me and I could take it off. Maybe that is what this is about. It is interesting to think about though.

Sorry, no insight here. Just an observation.