Forgiveness
 

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

What a timely thread! This is the season of forgiveness for Jews. Last Saturday we all packed into a tiny sanctuary and beat our chests and said the prayers taking repsonsibility for all the things we have done over the past year. Jews don't believe that G-d can forgive you for a wrong done to another human being. The process of forgiving another human being is called teshuvah. It means repentance. It also means turning and returning. So Jews go through the process of shedding this life and on Yom Kippur are "dead" and waiting to be reborn fresh for the new year and be g'mar hatimah tovah or sealed for good in the book of life. There are all sorts of rules that govern teshuvah during the Yamim Nora'im.

The process starts in the month of Elul preceding the holidays. The first holiday is Selichot which means sorry in Hebrew. You come to synagogue late and say a lot of prayers to prepare yourself for the month of introspection.

Jews do not believe that every wrong must be forgiven or that it is even advisable in some cases. There is an excellent book by Simon Wisenthal called the Sunflower. It is about forgiveness and brings up some really challenging questions. I encourage anyone interested in forgiveness to read it.

Forgiveness feels good to me sometimes and sometimes not. It all depends on the intention behind it. On Yom Kippur a congregant gave a drash (teaching) on forgiveness and asked everyone around her what they thought. She got some really interesting answers. One was that forgiveness is a manipulative act only for the person who has wronged. I don't agree with that. Interestingly enough this came from a teenager! Maybe it is a developmental thing? To reach an understanding of it.

As always Nat a very interesting thread.

Here is a question...is it necessary to believe in G-d to want to or seek forgiveness? I ask this because it was brought up as the notion of a punitive G-d is all that motivates humans to seek forgiveness. I don't believe this. Just curious.

Julie...thank you for the information about your religion. Whenever I have learned about Jewish faith, I find a distinct pull to it, totally different than I feel toward Christianity. I feel so at home in Judaism. Comfortable. As I read about shedding of skin and renewal and even more so, about forgiveness and how not everything should be forgiven, I felt the pull even more. I do not believe everything needs forgiven. I think we need to learn from everything and can move on from it but no,not everything needs or deserves a clean wash. And yet, is that what forgiveness is? I think thats what I have been taught and yet i dont buy into it. Perhaps thats why I like the concept that not everything deserves or needs forgiveness.

I have done some wrongs in life that do not deserve forgiveness. Nothing horrid like murder....shaking my head....but there are many ways to kill parts of people. I am a recovering alcoholic and I have done things that while I ask for ammends for, do not ever expect forgiveness of. Most of these were perpetrated on my daughter. SHe has been in al anon and while we love each other powerfully, we are so both affected by my disease. She says she forgives me but you know what? I hope she doesnt. I hope she keeps it close to her breast, along with her love for me, and combines them, so she can walk beside me. I think thats the only way she can trust me, is to never forget and never forgive. It doesnt mean she should not love me. It does mean nothing can undo what I did. But we do not live in the past so the past should only be there as a reminder.

When I relapsed Nov of 2007, she was shattered. She was nowhere near me geographically but it was as tho I had done this as surely as if I was standing right next to her. I drew a sword and with each drink, shoved it inside her. Does that need forgiven?

Forgiven is not the word that catches everything we need to do spiritually in the world of ammends. The only forgiveness I seek, is with myself, for the pain I brought forth on all those part of me. I learned from it and take great measures to not relapse again. Certainly for me but oh yes, for those my every move in life affects.

I love my AA but I feel a responsibility beyond myself. They say we should only get sober for ourselves. True on some levels but on many others, not completely true. My sobriety is my true act of repentance, and ammends making, to my daughter.

And no, I am not beating myself up over relapsing. I am actually very very glad I relapsed. It broke what needed to be finally completely broken so I could snap out of denial and heal the right way. But it came at a cost. And it wasnt just I who paid it. For this, I am accountable for. Thats all...

well...this is my personal history with forgiveness

I used to have a much harder time forgiving. I would like to think I am much better at it now than ever before, but I"m not entirely sure that's true. I tend to easily forgive the small things, and the sometimes not so small stuff.
For me forgiveness is given in levels. How much preknowledge someone had about the hurt they were going to cause plays a big part in that. Even if they were well aware, I can forgive depending on how bad it was, and who the pain was inflicted on. I have a very low tolerance for pain inflicted on my children. I can forgive the small stuff usually, but if you cause them undue pain and heartache, that's where I draw the line. I can also forgive alot of things done to me personally, if the person really wasnt aware of the outcome. If you intentionally hurt me however then I"m done. I know myself much better now then I did say 10 yrs ago, and will not say I can forgive someone, when I know that in the long run I cannot. Also, for me there is a big difference in forgiveness, and second chances. I may not completely forgive you , but give you a second chance. Also, I have this little hang up about forgivness..you have to appologize and actually mean it. To me, that means not repeating the same behavior. And please, do not try to coddle me with an " I"m sorry you were hurt by ..." or.." I"m sorry you took it that way".
That's not an appology. That is putting it on my doorstep. That's not an "I'm sorry I did this thing, I was wrong". Big difference for me. Also, just because I forgive you , does not mean that I will forget it. It will stay in my mind forever most likely. It will also take me some time to get over it, and not feel gun shy with you, and please do not try to put a time limit on how long it should take . You arent me.

Excellent point in the bolded above.

What a great, thought~provoking thread.....thank You, Nat.....

I'm just going to start by answering Your questions:

1. If I answer the other questions first, then You'll know what my thoughts are about forgiveness.... :)

2. Forgiveness means (to me) a letting go of a wrong done to You (or someone You love. In my opinion, You can't say to someone (or in Your mind), "I forgive You, BUT...." That is not forgiveness if You must qualify it, anymore than someone saying, "I don't mean to be rude, BUT...." Well of COURSE they mean to be rude or they wouldn't have said it. Why can't we just say ~ outloud or to Yourself ~ "I forgive You." and let it stand?

3. Forgiveness feels like a big relief....a heavy weight lifted off of my heart. And the heaviness is caused (for me) by NOT forgiving. Sometimes, I cannot forgive right away. I know in my heart when I just cannot stand being tired from carryin' that weight around with me any longer.

4. Rituals? Not really....for me, it just happens when it happens.

5. Tough question!!!! For me, to NOT forgive~when I feel it is required of me by my Higher Power~is wrong. But that doesn't mean that I DO forgive always. It's very rare that I don't forgive, but I can think of 2 instances right now where I have not.....and it's not because I haven't tried. And having admitted that now is bringing tears to my eyes.

6. I forgive frequently. And I really do forget about it. I was blessed with that forgetful gene....which, in some cases, is VERY frustrating ~ to me and those who love/care for me. I will remember more things where *I* need to be forgiven more than the other way around.

7. Another good question......I'm better now at forgiving myself than I used to be. But then, I'm 57. I think aging has something to do with that. <smile> And for that, I am grateful to have finally learned that lesson!

8. I have...and I will continue to do so should I do something I regret. We are ~ after all ~ only human.

9. I do have a child......she has seen me forgive HER over and over and it has not marred my unconditional love for her ~ and she knows it....and I believe the best lesson I can teach her about forgiveness is for her to see it in action. I have also expressed to her how much energy it takes to NOT forgive....

10. The only thing I have to say is I feel it has become too cliche` for us to say "I forgive, but I don't forget," when , again to me personally, it seems that forgiveness is all about forgetting the offense. Let it go as quickly as You can. Too much energy, I'm tellin' Ya!

Again....in a perfect world, I would be able to practice what I 'preach'....and I do not always. But I do forgive most of the time. And most of the time, I do forget as well.....and I hope I am forgiven when I offend.

These are some really wonderful posts and I'm so excited so far to read them. (I bet there will be more before I get to post this too).

I think maybe forgiveness is one of those words where many people have different definitions and experiences, so I really deeply appreciate the specificity of these posts.

I grew up in a world with a father who brought mountains of pain to me and my family. I grew up in a world with a mother who never seemed to forgive me for any slight misstep. And in that scenario, when I say she didn't forgive me, it means that she held onto resentment for things I'd done from a very young age, that she held onto her anger, that she acted like a put-upon martyr where I was cause of her distress. Though she managed her anger well, it was palpable and though she would eventually let things drop, she never really let go of the anger - it just seemed to go down to a simmer until the next time she thought to bring it up. She never said things like, "don't worry about it, I know you didn't mean to do such-and-such" or things like that. She would just turn to stone toward me and offer me no comfort, understanding or acceptance - or even just a marker of "let's put all that behind us now and start afresh." Believe it or not, I was a very well-behaved kid to begin with. I feel bad saying all that because I truly adore my mom and think she was and is a great mom in a whole lot of ways. She was a single mom, struggling with little help, and she was younger than I am now when she did most of that stuff. Over the years, I think she's gotten way better at this stuff - I do feel that she forgives me now for my flaws and mistakes. I think probably she's forgiven me for most of my childhood missteps too - she just never let me know.

Anyway, all that and I've never been sure what exactly forgiveness is supposed to be. When I was younger and probably still to this day, I tended to excuse people rather than forgive them. I would try to understand what their experiences were, why they behaved the way they did, and then just excuse their behavior as part of their personality or programming. *

I didn't know what forgiveness even was, and I'm not sure I do now either. I think about it kind of a lot, but without a really good model for it, it's mainly guesswork.

I have heard that not forgiving a person really hurts you more than the other person, and I think that's true. *There's this meditation that I do, where I imagine the people I'm upset with dissolving into light. It feels like just letting go. Is that forgiveness?

I think maybe forgiveness is a combination of accepting the past and just letting go of anger and resentment. I think of it as a self-healing thing, but I also think there are times when it really can help another person move on to let them know you have forgiven them. *There are some people, however, that although I may forgive them, I would no more invite them back into my life than have a picnic on a fire ant mound. I don't think forgiveness has to mean re-inclusion into one's life if a person has patterns of toxicity and damage. I am grateful to those who have forgiven me for the times when I have erred and for the times when my toxicity levels were at their highest. I think also for big things, forgiveness is a long process. *When I do this meditation, sometimes the same people show up over and over again. And I just try to let go of the resentment all over again.

I tend to be harshest on myself - I find it the most difficult to let go of my own resentments toward myself over past actions and inactions. I'm trying to get better with that. I'm trying to get to a place where I accept all people - including me - are human and we all make mistakes sometimes. I think just accepting a certain amount of leeway in human behavior probably helps. And maybe part of what helps me let go of resentments is knowing how comforting it would be to know that those who hold resentments toward me might do the same. I'm not talking about quid pro quo but more like the golden rule.

As far as religion goes, I think a lot of religions do encourage forgiveness, and there may be a spiritual element in it for those of faith, but forgiveness is probably pretty useful sociologically in order to maintain diplomatic group relationships and I think it's probably pretty helpful psychologically for oneself.

A note on what forgiveness isn't: I don't think forgiveness means what happened was okay or right. I don't think it means you have to remove a necessary boundary between you and another person - unless you decide you want to remove the boundary and you no longer find it necessary. I don't think it means that damage didn't occur. I don't think you have to tell another person you've forgiven them if doing so would re-establish connections you don't want to re-establish. *I think it's just one of those things that makes life a little more livable inside one's own existence.

I say all that, but I'm still not sure what forgiveness really means or feels like to other people. I'm really enjoying the other responses here because I feel like there may be opportunity for me to better understand what it is for everybody else.

You have brought up a lot of good points here. Asking for forgiveness to me is taking responsibility and letting someone know I was responsible. Giving forgiveness does not mean I have to interact with that person at all. With those I love I am very forgiving. There is an endless supply of love. To forgive someone means I have to care about them on some level. It does to me mean that I want them in my life. Appropriate boundaries are so important as you mentioned. Just because you forgive someone does not mean that you have to bring them close again. Sometimes people don't understand that.

Forgiveness,this is a hard one,on one hand a good thing to do but harder to do at times.I can forgive a lot of ppl for things cause u cant fix the stupid stuff ppl do that they dont thing will harm another..there brains arent wired to realise what they do.Do I foprgive the ex hubby that walked out on me with a 3yrold and me still 8 monts along with the second son to be with his partying trophy wife to be.That one took a loooonnnngg time,not so much for me as for the kids who should have had a dad in there lives and didnt..he didnt have the guts to be a dad so they were beter off.Do I forgive the parrents who abandond me as 18 months to split then move on with there lives married to other ppl raiseing other kids..no child suport from either ever.In my own way I have forgiven but forget, no.For a long time I grunged on all the wrongs I had to deal with and all they did was eat up my soul,give me stress,feeling of worthlessness beacuse of so much crap that I delt with with in my life from ppl who were hell bent to see me beat down.Over the last ten years I have done some soul serching and what ive done is, let it go.Its a heavy weight I dont need to cary,its over,done and in the past.Im a new me.I have learned the lessons well of serveing this life and this wil serve me well the rest of my life.

On self forgiveness. That is also the hardest for me personally. Even when my head knows I had a reason. Maybe not even a good one, but a legit reason.(to me) Sort of like cause and effect. There was a cause, my action was the effect. I am not equating the cause as an excuse however. That was really hard to differentiate. Still can be. When looking at my own behavior, I try to first figure out the "why". When I figure that out, I can follow the path, and usually see how I allowed myself the behavior. It does not however mean that my behavior was acceptable. It never is. But seeing the "why" helps me not repeat the behavior again. It helps me put a flag on it, so when the "why" comes up again, I can say to myself, ok, here's this situation again, now lets have a different outcome concerning my behavior. It's how I hold myself accountable. There are things in my life that I am ashamed of, most of them done before I turned 18. Even though I was young, and had little knowledge of self, I still dont feel as though I can give myself a pass. I think not forgiving yourself leads to not loving yourself. Yep. and that's as far as it goes for me, I"m not at the self forgiveness stage yet. Therefore, while I love myself as a whole, there are parts that I do not love.

Here is a good overview of The Sunflower and the questions it raises.

http://www.ilperetz.org/graduates/daniel_bish.htm

Oh, im headin out the door to see the sunset, but I dont want to loose this thread.

*Subscribing*

Fantastic, well timed topic!

i believe in and practice forgiveness. i have been forgiven by my friends and family for all the heartache i caused them when i was in the thralls of addiction. i wouldn't be doing so well without their forgiveness. it has taught me how to be forgiving when people in my life commit acts or say things that might offend or cause pain.

Wow I think I know exactly what your talking about here Gemme, its very weird with me Im totally like this....

Once you cross some kind of internal line with me then its over....

For me forgiveness is something I def have to work on, both giving and recieving..

when i look at the subject from an academic view its somthing entirely different than what lays next to my heart...but I strive for self examination and forgiveness is something I intrinsically know will be hard for me always...

I want to be someone who is always open to examining my actions and if I desire forgiveness for whatever it is Ive done...then I have to be able to give that as well and sometimes its so hard when my emotions are involved since im def an emotional creature...

when I think about forgiveness from a global view its a much different story..

I have been emotionally humbled by reading about the Truth and Reconcilliation Commissions in South Africa and Rwanda.I have been emotionally humbled by reading Elie Weisel and Primo Levi...and I have met in person, talked to and cried like a baby in front of Holocaust survivors when I attended various events....They allowed me to see some kind of hope or something in thier existence that has and always will strike to the core of my being..I worked with someone who escaped literally as machine guns were blazing at him from the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and we talked about where he was from and what he went through and I remember thinking to myself that I really needed to listen to what he was telling me and absorb that for life



something about the capacity for forgiveness makes me cry like a baby as well....

That people whose lives have been destroyed and yet somehow they find it in themselves to allow that forgiveness just makes me realize how much more I have to learn about life and love...

I think forgiveness and the ability to forgive is a highly personal journey and experience.

For me, forgiveness is the single most liberating and cleansing thing.

I hold a grudge for about a mili-second. It takes a lot -- a lot -- to make me angry.

I'm all about doing what I can to move my life forward. Anger, grudges, etc...I see that stuff as weight holding me down. I can't accept it for myself.

I pulled this from my post on a different thread, because I got a lot of feed back and we have a lot of new people since I made this post.

What Forgiveness is not
Forgiveness is not condoning unkindness
Forgiveness is not forgetting that what happened was painful
Forgiveness is not excusing poor behavior
Forgiveness is not denying or minimizing your hurt
Forgiveness does not mean reconciling with the offender
Forgiveness does not mean you give up having feelings


What is Forgiveness
Forgiveness is for you not the offender
Forgiveness is taking back your power
Forgiveness is taking responsibility for how you feel
Forgiveness is about your healing not about the person that hurt you
Forgiveness is a trainable skill just like learning to throw a ball
Forgiveness is a choice
Forgiveness is becoming the hero instead of the victim

I really like this post. I feel much the same about it.

If I find myself where I need to forgive someone, I'm probably angry about it. I do have a process I go through. I try to figure out why the person did what they did. I look at myself first, then I will ask them. If they're not willing to help me in the process of forgiving them, I will move on and do what I need to do for me. (yes, the whole process is for ME) As I work through it, if I loved that person, sometimes the process is more painful than the offense. I know when I have forgiven them, I won't love them the same as I once did. I don't like that but, I can definitely deal with it. The more I love them, the longer the process takes.
I don't believe in forgive and forget. I practice forgive, forgive, and don't forget. If I'm forgiving someone, I forgive the person, I forgive the offense, and I don't forget what kind of capabilities that person has for hurting others. I won't expose myself to it again.
If I need to forgive me, I forgive myself, I forgive the offense, and I don't forget the pain I have caused people. I do some soul searching in hopes of losing some of my capabilities.

I might be back with more thoughts.

Forgot to ask my question.
 

I have no judgment whether someone forgives or not. I wonder though, for the folks who don't forgive, (or can't forgive) do you expect forgiveness from others? Does it matter to you if you are forgiven or not?

I want to address Ryobi's question. I forgive. Just not carte blanche. Some things are not meant to be forgiven. If you read my post you will see I talk about me not expecting others to always forgive me. I have very few unforgivables. One burns in me with lava anger..a resentment and it is toxic to my sobriety if I dont work on it. Resentments are NEVER good. This is an example of anger being mixed with unforigiveness. I am dealing with it on a daily level. I hope maybe one day of it not being lava like at least.

I have one other person I have forgiven for many things but one thing I will not forgive her for. I know why she did what she did. I know it was bad judgement on her part and she really wasnt schooled to be any more than this action. I know she couldnt give what she herself was never given. Had she even said she was sorry I could forgive. But that never came. I know she couldnt because she couldnt see or if she could, hoped I couldnt see, how wrong her behavior was. I speak of my mother. Of all the things wrong she did (and she did many many things right) she did one thing that remains the most hurtful of all things ever done to me. I will not forgive her. But I dont hate her. In my unforgiveness I hold her close to my own heart and weep that she could not have been a happier person or have been loved better herself so she could have known how wrong this was. I dont hold it against it. It does not seperate who we are to one another. but the action was deadly to my soul and to forgive her of her deed, would be to betray me to myself. I will not do that either. But I will not stop loving her. In fact, I love her more because of it. Can you understand?

I have recently contacted most of my exes in preparation to do my ammends. Well, actually I have begun some. All of them were glad to hear from me. We let the past lay on the ground like autumn leaves. We move closer to death than to life in our age brackets and we have come to realize forgiveness is a blessing and a gift. None of us want to go to our grave hating the other. Or resenting. Or having ill feelings. What matters is we are happy NOW. And what we found in each other that caused us to love each other, can now once again be shared but in a simpler, less intense, and less familiar way.

when I close my eyes for the final time, I want my grandchildren to remember me with love and light, not hurt and pain. Its how I remember my mother that way. Certainly my father too. I hope to get to a place where forgiveness isnt what necessary but acceptance is. It was what it was. I want to close my eyes and know the life I led was a good one, if not a perfect one. And what would make it good would be the lessons I learned and passed onto those whom I loved.

belle...:rrose:
this is pure genius... all my life i have of course heard the converse... to forgive but not forget... its obvious when you say this that you have it the correct way...
if i can forgive them...i may as well forget it... but if i cant forgive them... i damned sure owe it to myself to forget... why should i punish myself for something someone put on me? excellent premise...
i am a little tired myself... but... i had to tell you that i really admire this statement...
you are obviously a really smart lady...

b

We are a like on this. It really depends on the person and situation. There is a certain level of deception I find insane and if I encounter it I forget. Forgiving isnt anywhere in the equation. I simple shut the door and try to put it out of my mind. Ok, maybe I dwell on it a few days wondering WTF and try to figure out why I attracted such nonsense into my life in the first place. I try and grasp the lesson, if there is one and forget.

Then you have forgive, let go but never forget.

I have people in my life today I forgive over and over. Someone might thing its crazy but I know the essence of that human isnt bad and they just cant help themselves. I put it in a whole different perspective but at the same time I never let them get too close to me because then its an issue of trust.

It took me a long time to forgive myself on some things but I did.

I don't feel you are less. If that matters. I have similar feelings about things in my life. I don't feel I am bitter or carrying any bad emotions. I see forgiveness more for those I love. If someone is not important to me then I don't see the need to forgive them. It sort of makes the act they are guilty of more important than it should be. And apologies are hollow in some situations. I got the apology I thought I wanted and it left me cold inside. Nothing healed. What healed me was relinquishing the gulit I felt for having been chosen by the man who hurt me. It was more about forgiving myself.

I agree with you and my therapist and I have discussed this at length. Especially when really bad, traumatic things happen in our childhoods, we still bear the scars literally/physically/mentally no matter how old we are. Often our bodies begin to attack themselves as we age if we endured horrific events as children, so to just say forgive, or that you have to forgive to be healed is naive and sounds kind of heartless to be honest.

When I started back to therapy this time I did not know what forgiveness even meant either (thank you Nat!) Or even the difference between thoughts, feelings and emotions. I am slowly working it out and have gone from furious to really sad about my childhood, which according to therapist is way better. I am not seeking to forgive or to understand because there is no logic. I am seeking to heal and get past.

Therapist agrees that some things are unforgivable. Things that happened when I was too young to have had a hand in them. Things that are just too terrible....and I don't mean lying and cheating...those things I can forgive easily.

Now some people stress me out and I am not friends with any more. It is not that I don't forgive them, I just don't feel relaxed around them and life is too short for all that. We may just be in different places and that is OK. :)

Forgiving myself? I have been incredibly hard on myself, but am working on getting past that.

I am trying to look at each day as a brand new start.

Great point!

If I don't love someone, then forgiveness is kind of empty.