Third or Other Gender Butch
 

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread. :thumbsup:

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap... ;)

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.

Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

Just my personal observations along my journey:


In the 80's, the big thing for "most" ( not all) lesbians/ queer women/ dykes was to be androgynous.

Main Entry: an·drog·y·nous
Pronunciation: \an-ˈdrä-jə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin androgynus hermaphrodite, from Greek androgynos, from andr- + gynē woman — more at queen
Date: 1651
1 : having the characteristics or nature of both male and female
2 a : neither specifically feminine nor masculine <the androgynous pronoun them> b : suitable to or for either sex <androgynous clothing>
3 : having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversed <an androgynous marriage>
— an·drog·y·nous·ly adverb
— an·drog·y·ny \-nē\ noun


Then, it seemed a "reclaiming" of the Butch-femme dynamic surfaced in the mid to late 90's. Greatly visible at first in the Leather community(this was also about the same time BDSM enthusiasts became such a "trend" so it makes sense) , where Butch and Femme never really died out. Along with this resurfacing came drag kings as a phenom and the popularity of our b-f websites exploded.

Transsexual folks came out more and more gaining acceptance ( not always, of course but moreso than ever in the past) and the terms transgendered and genderqueer and genderfuct became hot words in our community.

In the last 20- 25 years along "our" evolution we have been knocking down walls so hard and fast it is hard for us to even keep up with our own sledgehammers.

We have had threads/ discussions/ arguments about inclusion, definition, gender theory, binary alignment, antiquated terminology. These discussions may go on forever, LOL! I see them as necessary for anyone going along a path that veers from any "norm" that society has perpetuated.

Most of my life I have felt other. There are times when I thought I would transition. I still am not completely comfortable in my own skin, however I am more aligned to the natural fluctuation of energies or mentalities that occur within me than I am in making a surgical/ chemical change. I am never faced with whom I think should be in my mirror. Sometimes it is distressing, sometimes it is kinda fun.Sometimes, I think I just spend way too much time thinking about it instead of just "being".

Good topic. I am more comfortable discussing this here than the "female/ woman identified butch" thread. I don't know why. This just seems a more natural discussion and for some reason less re-hashing.

A great many science fiction stories speak of a time when the human race becomes androgynous or even asexual. It is interesting to see the great number of folks speaking to feeling "other gendered".

Thanks Metropolis!

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

Ha yep... you did. Anyway I guess in that it has a fairly distinct meaning, of course being relative to the individual how that plays out and specific details.

So I suppose in my own head (on whether it's TG or not) is that it depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.

Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

Hey, Kayden!

Glad you will be joining the third/other gendered thread!

It is nice that a thread was started for this group of butches and/or for discussion around this type of butch!

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.


Dylan

Yep, I meant TG in the butch context...

3rd Gender is vague, yep same difficulties there myself. I had a thread mid last year and I must have wrote a novelette and was never happy with the terms used to describe it though I probably used 10 at least... lol.

Pretty much I'm using 3G here because it's a at least close descriptor at a "glance" yet open for many to join the convo. It's kind of funny though b/c I'm wayyyyy not into labeling myself... and do love "just being". Yet, I think just as women and men have those designations of gender as an internal "I'm a", or just a "knowing" as a given, - one of a different gender simply desires to name that too, that strong essence that drives so much of who we are as humans.

That in which most others just have a "place" and probably take for granted how important being recognized in that is, even if just in oneself.

Ok, now I may be rambling a bit myself...

Anyway, I think one of the problems for me as "other" is looking for a word that really narrows it, but I'm thinking even for those who actually are "woman" or "man" those words aren't fully telling. So I think for myself something fairly open like GQ probably is the most fitting without needing to get specific.

*An aside for those wincing as I'm sure it sometimes sounds a lot like conflating sex and gender in the thread (I'm wincing a bit too). But it's not really, just hard with the perimeters of a binary language (and I would say there's is a gender and mental sex connect just no rule). Maybe the best way to put it (for myself) is in relating yes, to some TG's who feel as not as a man- yet male... it's very similar for me, not a woman, not a man- yet male/female.*

Oh and welcome to everybody who's joined the conversation *thumbs up*

Metropolis

Yeah I'm not quite getting this.

Because of "butch" direction of this thread TG is being used in that masculine context more often sure... in this conversation.

That was in no way represents TG as a whole.

When I said I don't use it because it tends to make some believe I feel male, that was meant in a butch related context only, that my being known as female bodied peeps assume when I label TG that I'm saying I'm male minded.

If I was male bodied and said it some peeps would automatically think I was saying I was female minded.

That's the prob for me... peeps wrapped up in an either or binary... not with the term TG... which is a non binary term.

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread:)

Words

Great thread Met!

I do find it interesting that these discussions always seem to be Butch-Masculine...of course understanding that you are Butch, so you would see things from that perspective...and not to in any way take away from the things you deal with day to day....

However,

I do wonder if there are any other Femmes who in their heads id as masculine in some ways no matter how we might look on the outside.

There are parts of me that are very masculine (in my head and behavior) and some parts (mostly appearance) that are feminine. I have said before that if I were to transition I would look like Truman Capote, Laugh. Not that I want to transition, but I can't say that it has never crossed my mind.

Is this too much of a derail?

I have a number of very close femme friends who ID as cis-female, but who consider their gender femme...they consider themselves transgender, and have a helluva time (even in and sometimes mostly in queer space) fighting for their space in the TG world.

I truly believe they have a harder time than butches explaining their gender, because it's always assumed they mean they're trans-sexed as opposed to genderly outside the binary. Most people can't fathom how femme is a gender when you ID as cis-female, and your gender presentation falls in line with stereotypical ideas of femininity (woman), etc. I think femmes are continually left out of this conversation or dismissed, because their gender doesn't necessarily fall in line with limited binary thinking...i.e. femme isn't seen as any type of 'crossing over' or any other limited definition most people use to define 'transgender'. It's commonly (and erroneously) just assumed that 'femme' falls in line with cultural norms of woman/female/femininity, so "what? What's the big deal? There's no struggle...only butches 'struggle'." Which I then think leads back to the idea that in order to 'qualify' as transgender, One has to want 'the opposite'...which then leads back to binary thinking...which then leads back to stereotypes...which then leads back to Butches Want To Be Men Syndrome and Femmes' Invisibility.

I agree it's incredibly frustrating...it's even more ridiculously frustrating when it happens in queer space among people who claim to *know better* than to fall for binary thinking

I think the term transgender was *once* used as a term primarily for trans-sexed individuals, however, I really see a pulling away from this thinking. I mean, in some conversations I see transgender and transsexed used interchangeably, but in real time conversations, I see a big pulling away from this interchangeability. I see a lot of pulling away in some online communities also. Basically, I see the most interchangeability in conversations had among completely clueless straight people or in very basic definitions.

My real time groups of transgendered friends/acquaintances include butches, femmes, folks on hormones who just want to present differently (but who have no intention of changing their sex), third genders, genderfucts, genderqueers, pangender, zies, two-sprits, and everything in between.


Avoiding Work,
Dylan

I recently went to The Lady Doctor, and on their application, they also had a box for "Trans"

I was both relieved and dismayed at the same time. I was relieved (happy actually) to see the box, however, I was unable to actually mark the box, because trans-people aren't covered by the county insurance I was using to have this particular procedure (which, btw, had nothing to do with any trans-related issues). Hence, had I actually checked the box, I wouldn't have been covered...nor could I GET covered again, because it would have been part of my 'permanent record'.

So, while I'm glad people are actually becoming more aware...trans-folks still have to be incredibly cautious.


Dylan
But that's a whole 'nother conversation.

Thanks for your post Dylan and for answerng my question in addition to At Lasts!

So yes there are other Femme who ID as GenderQueer or who stuggle with the pervasive thought that only butches and FtM's suffer with gender identity.

Relived,

Jen

PS. That sucks that if you are Trans you can't use county insurance. Impressed that your county has insurance at all, but sad that for politics sake, there had to be a whole group of people left out....As usual.

Seems like a trick question to me!

I am glad too, that your county has something to offer TG people, but, ugh... thinking how many TG people could check the trans box not knowing these consequences given how confusing program small print can be!

I know I am always happy to see trans being included for gender on apps, etc., but here we have the ultimate catch-22. Also, I want a box for other!

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Thank you! My eyes, I tell ya. I can see it with my...cough...bifocals, but did not have them on and thought that part was your sig line.

Yeay! Validation.

May start another thread....another day when my brain is working better. :)

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

I know this is going to sound a bit wierd to others but it's not to me...

I've always said that lots of people out there have more than one gender. I'm one of those. And one of my genders just don't fit in "woman" - it fits in feminine. It's non-female, non-male, but feminine. Sometimes when I get very body disphoric, I have trouble understanding why I don't fit into my own body the way I feel I should.

It used to be horrific at times. Now just slightly off-putting and annoying.

I wouldn't call it a third gender. It's it's own thing and plenty of people feel that way sometimes. Frankly, half the planet has probably felt that wierd seperation of self from body. in a "this isn't quite me" way.

Perhaps it's because of disociating, perhaps it's because of body dysmorphia from eating disorders once out of control. Who knows. Doesn't matter much. I don't hate my body, I actually quite like it - it's just sometimes isn't speaking the same language as me.

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

I second that!

[quote=Metropolis;68756]


So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

[quote=DapperButch;68844]Actually, I don't think you should get flack either! Loss of friendship makes me deeply sad because a true friend recognizes when someone is speaking their truth and respects this even if they disagree.

Yes, Dapper, it hurts more when it comes from our own space.. hurts terribly.

Personally, Met, you RAWK! You are willing to take yourself to task with things that are just not easy and be open about it. Looks like good character to me!

Thanks (everyone on the "friends" stuff)
 

Yeah I think there was a bit of shell shock going around but for the most part it seems it's all good now I think.

I'm pretty occupied today (sick kit kat and a deadline on some works) but I just wanted to get at least make sure I got that in.

BBL
Metropolis