Men with boobs.
 

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.

Wow Heart, where did she do this? Im trying to Google but it isnt cooperating :tease:

Short man with boobs? That sure as hell wouldn't be acknowledging my masculinity. Nixon referred to her financee as her so she doesn't appear to identity as man or male. WTF?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_570645.html

here it is...hope you can open it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_570645.html

Gemme - but do you see my point? Why does her masculinity make her a man? Why not a masculine woman? Why do we persist in assuming that masculinity belongs to men? This is how male gets privileged over female constantly in queer communities.

Heart

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

:blink:

You know I don't know what their relationship is like, but, it personally skivs me big time when people just throw butch and man together.

"date a butch? why not just date a man?"

"butches just want to be men"

"butches are just trying to emulate men"

"butches are men in female bodies"

It's missing and completely dismissing the most important part of the whole... qualities and traits not attributable to men that is the actual BIG difference between a butch and a man... and that's more than boobs.

I'd be really bothered by any statements like that from anyone let alone my gf.

IMO,
Metropolis

hahaha....he may wear boots also.

Dusa - it was in the NY Daily News as well. Nixon called her partner a butch, but described her as basically a "short man with boobs." Of course you can imagine the comments that follow, including those that ask, "why not just be with a real man?" This is one of the most heart-rending things to me -- that butch women aren't seen as "real" women or as "real" men. They are erased thru our own narrow and limited vision.

I think the more important question is: does it bother her butch? For all we know, this is a term of endearment between them.

Actually Linus, I don't think that's the most important question. I don't think each and every personal story and id necessarily takes precidence over cultural expressions of sexism, misogyny, and homophobia towards butch women. And that's how this reads to me. If nothing else, Nixon's language was careless and dismissive towards masculine women, whether her partner identifies as male or female, (and as far as I know, she ids as female), is irrelevant.

Devil's Advocate for just a second:

Sometimes I wonder if people dont say things like this when they know that a larger audience will be reading it (read: straight audience) as a way to get people to understand that Butch is a different energy.

Now, to me, "Butch" isn't "Male" energy. In Jackhammer, it's just "Butch" energy but I do see how people who have never encountered "Butch" as anything other than a bad "Butch always equals flannel shirts, crew cuts, and militant feminism" stereotype can maybe understand it better. I hate that the understanding comes at a price though...and sometimes the understanding doesnt come at all.

Jack and I have sometimes explained to family or friends that her energy is not "Male" but "Tomboy" and they seem to get that she is still a woman when she is grunting over an engine, fixing something, or chewing Skoal (ICK!). *We* know that she isnt "just a Tomboy" but that she is a "Butch" but in order to further the understanding with whoever we are talking to, we have sometimes broken it down into a concept they can understand.

Linus,

That's what I was thinking...

What if her partner is a short man with boobs?
I'm not in their relationship so I can't say..


I used to have a partner who self id'd as a white, redneck, southern conservitive man to her nearest and dearest..

To the rest of the world she presented as a native american catholic straight woman...

Bit of a difference...

Judging by all the nasty replies on some of the websites Nixon's remarks definitely are not furthering any understanding of butch. Same oh same oh- wanna be man comments.

Thanks you three, you summed up what I was typing - before the phone rang. I got back from my phonecall to discover you'd beat me to it. Mwah!

The full advocate article puts the comment in a little more context. They were saying how folks would see Christine as very different than the women they are used to seeing "miranda" with (carrie, samantha...). And Cynthia Nixon laughs and makes the short man w/ boobs comment.

Not saying right or wrong, but in context I think she was more saying how Christine might look from the outside if sitting at a table of Sex and the City characters.

I wonder what the reaction would be if a public figure described their femme partner as basically a short/tall woman with boobs? How about a trans guy? Somehow it's ok to reduce butches to short men with boobs?

I think it's icky to behave as though she said that "All Butches are basically short men with boobs! BOOOOOOOOOOBS! MENNNNN! BOOOOOOBS!"

And for the record - none of us know how this person self-identifies. There's nothing to indicate that Nixon's lovah identifies as a Butch. Nixon referred to her "butchness" but that's not the same thing - I'm sure we all know that. Plus, further on in the article Nixon did reject the notion that they were in a Butch+Femme relationship.

I bet you'll all be real upset to hear that I tend to refer to my spouse as "the short hair" and myself as "the long hair". OMG I have oppressed us all!

I find it interesting that in this instance, many are so willing to shrug and say, "well, who knows? Maybe that's how she identifies, that's all that matters, etc." Why is that all that matters? That is NOT something we would say if the comment was in reference to someone's ethnicity or ability, for example. You wouldn't refer to someone as a "crip," or "white trash" even if they refer to themselves that way. The exact point I am making here is that we tolerate comments like this about women, shrug them off, make it a personal thing, instead of having a community standard that says it's not okay to refer to butches as "men with boobs."

The hue and cry would be different if it were about femmes or trans men or male identified butches.

and it's ok to say that butches who FEEL like short men with boobs have to be something else?

Again.. not everything fits everyone...

I wonder if that is what goes through peoples mind after they've called my Beloved *Sir* and THEN noticed hys boobs? Either way, you can always see that moment of recognition....

LOL, I've never heard of a butch describing themselves as a short man with boobs. Is this a new gender identity?

Heart..

She is saying that HER butch is... not that all butches are...

There is a difference...

It's just as wrong trying to force your (general your's, not your's personaly) ID on someone as it is to try to says that all are something because one is...

I don't think the comment would be made about femmes - who afterall, express more "traditional" (read: understood, expected) woman-hood, so of course they have BOOBS.

I agree that any reference to transmen or male-ided queers and BOOBS would immediately be seen as disrespectful, rather than shrugged off or justified. But the reference wouldn't get made as easily because of the privleging of male identity. It's specifically women, in this instance masculine women, that are supposed to suck it up and just have a sense of humor about any reference to BOOBS.

Even in context, I find Nixon's statement utterly objectifying and basically stupid.

There are more things Heratio..

Ever heard of a native american straight woman being a white,redneck, conservitive man?

Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't make it not true...

Not from me, it's not. I don't give a rats ass how two people in an adult relationship describe one another - provided it doesn't hurt the feelings of the ONE person being described.

You've never heard a butch refer to his/her/hys/whatever breasts as "man boobs"? Really? Because I have. I'm actually pretty sure that my own spouse has said that.

You are completely missing my point.

The only thing I am trying to force, and will continue to try and force, is recognition that women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine, and that being ultra-masculine does NOT make one male anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

Does that expalin it better??

I wasn't referring to body parts, I was referring to human beings.

maybe she's not missing it, just disagreeing with it. which is allowed. :)

My guess, is its something Cynthia and Christine joke about - Christine "compared to your sex and the city girlfriends I look like a short guy with boobs" and they laugh it off. Cynthia said it in the Advocate, probably among a zillion other things they didn't even print - and huffington post and ny post and whoever else, took the most quotable, (perhaps unfortunate) line and used it as a teaser.

now we're beating it into the ground. (me too of course, but just cause my boss is off today :>)

No actually, Random was missing it - because I'm not forcing anything on anyone, they can id however they want, in fact it's irrelevant to my point what their personal ids and relationship and lover's jokes are.

Nixon's comment leads me to make this point (as I did above): women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine. Being ultra-masculine does NOT make one a man anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

That, in a nutshell, is my point.

Heart

No.. I didn't miss your point...

Lol.. this is just one subject we don't agree upon...

Because I belive that there are more ways to id... more diversity on the spectrum of gender and sexual identities that there are words to describe them...

and a couple of ways that ultra masculine people ID is male and ultra feminine ID is straight..

For SOME People those are truths... Nothing is true of everyone... And for me... Those people who do fall into the *Tradidional Sterotypes* have just as much voice/rights to ID as THEY ID as those who don't fall into the traditional...

For me... Not one way is better.... the entire range is right for those who feel it is right for them...

If you are a femaled id'd butch.. yea.. if you are male id'd... yea... if you are a high femme who id's a a straight mother and wife... yea.. if you are a femme dyke (me!) who loves her doc's as much as her stillettos and wants to bring her butch dinner while wearing a apron over her camo's... Yea...

There is a place for all of us... We might not fit every where.. with everyone.. but there is room for all of us...

When someone makes a public comment that many would construe as transphobic- that's what it's called- transphobic. People don't bend their ass over backwards trying to find something clever or cute about it.

What is said or shared between a couple in private is between them.

If I may objectify your honey for one moment..
 

Personally...

I think it's hot... grin...

I love that moment then things don't mesh...

Sort of like the look in people eyes when they find out between the amazon and myself.. I'm the Top...

Grin.. Priceless..

So, she's not allowed to be referred to by her partner (someone who obviously knows her as they live together, and they're raising children together) as a 'man with boobs', but she IS allowed to be referred to by complete strangers on the internet as 'a butch' (which she may not ID with at all, and being that her partner has pretty much stated they don't ID as a butch/femme couple, we can infer that she doesn't ID as a butch)

And all because complete strangers on the internet feel they have a right to tag her as THEY deem fit, and in a way in which makes THEM comfortable.

And this is justified with 'personal IDs are out of fashion this year'?


Oh, Ok,
Dylan

So, I'm going to pick on Bete's comment first, because I like her and because it is part of our relationship that we constantly antagonize one another with delicious malice aforethought. So, in short: CRAP. And to all other posters who said essentially the same thing.

Heart's comment is really the uh, heart of the issue. Regardless of whether one doesn't mind being called a 'short man with boobs', the larger concern is the language (and through it, the thought) that engenders the ongoing belittlement of of masculine WOMEN, because, ya know, it's all RELATIVE to the individual and their own identity.

One's own identity is never (or should never be) the paramount concern in any 'community'. The idea of a community itself implies that its larger than any one individual. As long as we, as a community, continue to use (or condone) language that has the essential power to demean others because we're afraid of being 'judgemental' or similar happy horseshit, we demean the entire community, and consequently, ourselves.

Hey Heart,

Hope it's ok to tease this out a little more. :)

I also believe that women exist on a gender spectrum that is as diverse as it is prolific.
Im wondering if, in the article, Cynthia had referred to her partner as "Trans" if the "man with boobs" comment would mean something different to you? What if her partner comes out as Trans in a few days? Would that feel any different when trying to name something on our gender spectrum that may exist in a completely different capacity on someone else's?
Because to me, it does make a difference how that person identifies, if the comment was ok for their way of being or if it was an insensitive, erasing snip.

I was sitting here kinda thinking over a couple of the conversations I have had with some of my Trans Male friends and how a couple have actually talked about feeling like a "man with boobs" until they were able to have the surgery to make their body fit more in-line with what they felt their identity called for.

I was also thinking about the negative comments on this particular article and how it saddens me so deeply that our entire spectrum of Queerness is so often fetishized and/or treated as a voyeur-circus for mouth-breathing idiots.

More thoughts..