The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide
 

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

That said as I requested to hear from butches first because I find it's better straight from the horses mouth than an observers perception, personal lens or spin on what is in the minds of butches in this context.

Sometimes I think the prob is some folks think there's a huge war and so just fly with that as to everybody's motives... I find this just adds to the problem of many butches of all ID's not being heard.

Thanks again,

Metro

YAY
 

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.

-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas....

Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other.

I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.

One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect.

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first.

No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community.

When I do speak up as a butch woman there seems to be some hostility from a few and a general uneasiness amongst more than a few. That is how it seems to me. It does not come from one specific gender identity.

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

[QUOTE=Metropolis;115382]I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

No

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

I don't see the attacks, I don't get them personally, I used to on another site, but not here, which is one reason I am here. Thing is the same folks who used to be at the other site are here as well, so something has changed. I think that Jack and Medusa have made it clear that attacking folks for who they are is not acceptable, and I for one welcome that. Met, you have always had my back, and been a supporter of me, and I appreciate you for this. I just don't understand the whole "war" concept, and if folks can't accept each other for who they are, then what kind of community can there be.

When you do feel dissed does it seem to be coming from an entire group, one particular ID... or is it like the mostly individuals from scattered ID's?

Bull I guess you already answered that.

I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID.

Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that.

We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...

I'm going to be honest with you, and you can take it however you're going to take it.

I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird*. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them.

I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely.

I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen?

EDIT - I figured out what phrase I was looking for above when I said "weird". The phrase was "right message, wrong place".

Here is one: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...67&postcount=5

Yes, I agree Metro. I have tried to address things directly with individuals when it was things they said specifically that I found problematic. Unfortunately after awhile that begins to appear as an ongoing personal grudge if certain individuals continue to do that. I do believe in being direct and it also can be hard to let things slide when you find them problematic. I am not sure what the answer is. I'm just going to try disengaging more and just being parts of conversations that interest me.

I do not attack male ids. I do strongly speak out against male defaults. To me there is a huge difference between the two.

Thanks for asking these questions Metro. Interesting thoughts.

Betenoire, I appreciate you being direct with me, but I am a woman so why would it feel weird to hear me talking about being a woman? Perhaps there is a specific example you can give me where that felt strange.

I think this site has given us a fresh start to a certain degree, but the old attitudes seem to still be there. However, I do sense, overall, more general goodwill to trying to be more respectful to each other as well.

Oh, I'm really sorry. I thought you were asking me questions that you wanted me to answer about how I felt from my perspective. Obviously, you know the people on this site and they haven't said that to you. Soooooo......
A couple of peeps off site? hmmm. Well you can characterize it how you want, it's your thread and you know everyone...and apparently are listening in on my phone calls - odd. But ok.
In fact I specifically said in my post - is it still my post? - IS that I sensed that that what was going on and that people were saying one thing and calling it another. That is what I said, speficially they are not spelling it out that way in the threads. I base that on people whom I have talked to in real time and IM and on the phone - people who I do know AND AND consider to be my friends - cuz I can be friends with people who disagree with me I'm friendly in that way - who have told me HOW THEY FELT about male IDs being on this site. How many people does that have to be to justify the existance of a undercurrent to YOU?
Now I fell all bad because I thought that you - YOU METRO - actually started this thread to actually see what people were thinking about this. NICE TRAP. I didn't see that one coming and I mean it - as someone who considers you a friend.
I will step out of here now and let you all get to discussing how you (the collective you - of which I don't belong to) agree with each other, how you are right and no one else has a perspective unless it fits in yours.
Thanks.

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives. But that's you're prerogative.

*done with my derail*
Metro

OK just read your edited version. I am not to talk about being a woman in certain places. I should just keep that to myself. Should femmes keep it to themselves that they are women, should transmen keep it to themselves that they are men? :|

I have been politely, and in some cases not so politely, been told to "tone" it down. Don't talk about being a woman so much, or qualify it so that everyone is certain that not all butches are women. I've never heard anyone tell a femme not to talk about being a woman.

My question to the general audience is why does it make you so uncomfortable for butches to talk about being a woman?

If you happen to find it "off topic" in the future, perhaps you (the general you) can address it then.

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

It mostly has come from ID's online that were not woman or female, and a few femmes. In real life it has come from femmes and from male ID'd butches. I sometimes think it was an intolerance issue for my ID, I honestly don't know the truth behind it because I refused to engage it because it's BS to me.
It's also BS to me to do any sort of Posturing between different ID's.

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here on BFP at any time.

And again, I'm sorry you're reading me as you are, it only says you do not truly know me in the first place.

This 'war' and 'battle' has been being waged for a long ass time.

It was waged during the 70s with transphobic rhetoric from Janice Raymond and her ilk

It was waged during Stonewall when transpeople were erased from the history and the entirety of the uprising was co opted

It was waged when Brandon Teena was co opted and his trans ID was erased

It was waged when "The Well Of Loneliness" was co opted

It was waged at MichFest when trans people were barred from attending

It was/is waged when transpeople are completely erased and dismissed from b-f history, and we're told it's "A Women's History"

It was/is waged when Sylvia Rivera is completely dismissed, ignored, co opted, and called gay/lesbian

It is waged when there are certain expectation put on Other IDs than woman about how those IDs are 'expected' to act.

It is waged when Queer IDs are told, "It makes me uncomfortable when you celebrate your ID"

It is waged when certain IDs won't/don't give credence and space to other IDs

It is waged when one ID is told 'This is how you need to act"

It is waged when all of b-f history is looked at through one lens, and that lens is expected to be The One And Only Lens

It's waged every time someone claims this site is a 'primarily women/lesbian site'...because it's not, and that's not an INclusive statement.

It's waged every time someone makes the assumption that Queer act this way or that

It's waged every time someone makes the assumption that Queer means women loving women or men loving men

It's waged every time someone ONLY thinks in binary terms (as exemplified above)

It's waged every time someone thinks Their Way is The Only Way

And it happens every.single.day on this site, just like it did on the other site. It didn't start out that way, but it's happening again.

You want posts from this site stating Male Ids aren't welcome and aren't supposed to be here, Met? Why would anyone post them all? The complaints aren't taken seriously when the post happens, so why would anyone think 'it would be made apparent' posting them all a second time? I mean, no one even acknowledged SuperFemme's post this time around. Not even you who asked for the posts to be dredged up.

According to the Admin, this site is not only a place to 'accept and tolerate' male and other ID's, but for those IDs to be honored. Yet, even trying to discuss (not even 'honor') those IDs is seen as an attack on women, and people are then expected to answer, "I'm curious why you don't ID as woman". I can't even imagine if someone started a thread about 'honoring' male. There'd be an uproar. Even asking for another ID to be RECOGNIZED and not lumped into the 'woman' category has resulted in a hijacking of another thread...so, 'honor'...unlikely.


Dylan

P.S. not all femmes ID as 'woman'

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

Did you read my post? Do it again and pay special attention to where I said that since Bulldog is who I was talking to (and Bulldog's statement that she thinks she makes people uncomfortable is what I was responding to) that I was going to specifically talk about/to Bulldog.

My specifically responding to Bulldog about Bulldog does not imply that I am unaware that this goes on with other IDs and in other threads.

Oh, and evoking the dash site? Go back and read the paragraph where I (to paraphrase) asked that we leave the shit from the dash site -at- the dash site. I do not like or participate in that website (pm me if you're dying to know why) so I would rather pretend it doesn't exist, and I certainly am in no position to speak on the subject of what does or does not go down over there - I abandoned that particular ship about 3 years ago.

No, that is true, and really I know I barely knew you on the BF site. IF you did tell me then I frankly don't remember it at all.

And in either case I still didn't remove you from my friend list here and I still cut FB people who I don't interact with... and you still would have been cut like the other acquaintances that got cut.

You can think what you like, it really doesn't affect reality. People that actually do know me, here and real life are all the people are probably more in the know of how I conduct myself than you.

So it's all out there... peeps can decide who's motives are what if there into that kind of hubub... I'm all good with that.

Metro

As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?
No, I don't feel any animosity towards one group of butches or another....that being said I don't like people all that much in general in the real world. So online if I dislike you it's because of what I KNOW to be true about you or because you are an ass online. It's got nothing to do with how you ID.

Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?
Nope.

Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
No, not at all. I don't see any particular group banging on another. I see scattered individual people arguing and disagreeing with other people. I don't think it's fair to group all masculine ID'd people together nor is it fair to group female ID'd people together.
I don't think this war of words is going to ever go away either. The issues are too deep and personal to some.

I'm going to repeat something I said in another thread:

I do get frustrated sometimes that when I am speaking up about certain things that it is taken as all I care about is my id. When I am speaking up about women- whether it be butch women or other topics related to women- I am not out there trying to promote my id.

The fact that butch women do not always receive the respect and visibility they should is a symptom of an even greater problem- which is sexism and misogyny. It's not about me promoting my individual id to trump others.

So I may be speaking from my I/me place, but I am really talking about much larger and deeper issues. That often gets lost and it frustrates me.

In Medusa's companion thread (femme perspectives on the gender war), she asked: * Do you feel ... that it [gender wars] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that's an IMPORTANT question and I don't really understand why the discussion of "gender wars" or the "female/male divide" is being separated into femme and butch discussions, so I'm cross-posting what I said in Medusa's thread here:

Question: Do you feel ... that it [gender wars/male-female divide] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying fuck about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart

I think the thread in the Femme Zone is right where it belongs.
Some people consider Femme their gender. Sometimes it is ok to want to have a dialogue in Femme space. This is one of those times.

Sorry, I thought this was opened to butches for discussion ... at least initially. Where are we?
It feels as if the animosity/ies spoken of have shown up on this thread. I find it interesting, as a relatively newbie, and also paradoxical.
I am interested in reading and reflecting on responses first, being new. I'd like to hear more from my butch brothers and sister butches who ID as women. I see that the femmes have started their own thread ... maybe we can, as butches, stay on topic and have this discussion.

Help me out here... I get pissy about my femme safe zone so I gotta ask why the hell is this in a butch thread?

Cause lemme tell you nothing irritates me more, and I am speaking for me, nothing pisses me off more than when femme views are dragged for butch validation

It's a slap..

Just sayin/

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

thank you for taking the time to respond...

I got your point, there is no need to leave.

With that said, it is still IMHO relevant to have the particular discussion we are having in the Femme zone.

Sometimes, examining sexism and misogyny within a Femme space can lead to better introspection.

I sense no animosity from any group or anyone here. I'm sorry to read that others have different experiences. One of the many things I do like about this site is that over on the left side of each post, where our avatar is, there is a line about pronoun preference. I find it nice that it is there because I feel that my preference is honored, and I can see how others prefer, so if I address them in post I know ahead of time what they want me to use.

I think that when I am out and about in the world, I am called "sir" way more than "ma'am." Even when I am addressed as "ma'am," I may slightly flinch, but I decided long ago that there are things in the world more important to fight over than whether or not the store clerk or waiter calls me sir or ma'am. I say that in no way to dismiss anyone's fight or struggle to get their i.d. out there the way they want it. I simply say that for myself I choose not to argue, as long as I am addressed politely and courteously, that is usually all that matters to me.

What it comes down to is I have a very firm grip on who I am. I know that how I i.d. is entirely up to me to define, and not others. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wasn't always, but as I age, perhaps I am mellowing. Who knows?

Jake

I don't think it will ever end. I also don't think that's a bad thing. :)

People find us at various stages in their journey and, hopefully, there will always be people here willing to discuss these issues based on where they are along their own path. If/when one of us gets tired of beating our head against the proverbial gender wall, someone else will be there to pick up where we left off.

Yes, we do this a lot. But, I learn something new just about every time we do it.

Just cut & pasted and put my answers in my usual font/color- been thinking about the actual questions you pose for a bit, now.



[COLOR="navy"]A PS- There have been statements throughout my time on both sites in which I have felt my ID to attacked and even dismissed. However, that has usually been some idiotic statement without forethought, it happens. I can't take that and plop it on an entire group.

I have witnessed some dissing of ID groups (again, all of them) outside of the websites. Makes me mad and I say so! I hate it when someone does the 'ole cover their mouth gesture and says .. I'd never say this on the site, but.....[/COLOR]

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No, I don't feel animosity towards any group as a whole. I save my animosity for individuals!

Sorry, it was too good to pass up. Seriously, I guess I just don't bunch people together based on ID. There are groups of people that I know and like. There are groups of people that I agree with most of there posts. There are groups that I have personal issues with. There are groups that I don't like based on really stupid shit like the color font they use or avatars or lack of complete sentence structure. But I can't honestly say that I don't like or have issues with anyone based on their ID.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

My personal ID is so fluid, yet so ingrained in me, that it would be hard to be "at war" over it with anyone. I've got enough in common with everyone that, no matter their place on the graph, I can see their points and the totally opposite ones. It would be rather hypocritical of me to attack anyone based on their ID.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
No. I don't see any public agenda and I'm not "in the know" enough these days to know (or care) if there are private ones.


I've said it a few times, in different threads, but the butch gender issue is not something I have ever experienced in real time. This is strictly an online thing for me. I've never had a conversation in real time with anyone about butch gender ID's except people that I met online on a BF ID's site.

I, too, get tired of going over and over the same things. I do feel that we spend a lot of time beating our heads against the same wall and, yes, it seems to always be the same people saying the same things. I have yet to see, here, any negativity to female ID'd butches. I have yet to see the same posturing, belittling, b.s. that I've seen in other places. Based on that, I like it here best.

Also based on that, I do have to question the victim mentality of some of those that complain the loudest. In the vein of "open communication" that this thread is allowing us, I have spent an awful lot of time lately yelling things like "Oh for fuck's sake!" and "Get over it already!" at my computer monitor. I have also spent a lot of time just turning the damn thing off. I don't think anyone is out to get anyone else on a general level. Again, I can't speak of the personal because I'm not privy to it.

I also cringe a little when I get "ma'am" just because it feels so foreign to me. I'm also read as female by the majority of the population in my day to day life. If I make the conscious effort to change my appearance, I can get sir'd more often. Right now, today, I get ma'am, lady, even missy a couple of day's ago. It's weird and I can't say that I like it but I'm secure enough with myself that I can admit I've let my hair get too long, I'm wearing different clothes for work, I'm looking a hell of a lot older then I used to so I am more often read as someone's cranky old grandmother these days rather than the hardass butch I still am in my head.

And right now, today, I'm ok with that. Maybe it's my age, maybe it's the time spent on my journey, it could be any number of things. I do wish that everyone, no matter their path, gets to experience this "OK" place I'm in at least once in their life.