Gender Wars - A Femme's Perspective
 

As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I'll be back in just a bit --

I just wanted to say thank you very much for starting this thread. I have been thinking a lot about all of this lately. I am impressed that you always seem to have the pulse of the community. I will be back and answer some of the questions later.

my answers in bold.

No.

No.

No. What I do see is a lot of people (and I'm not just talking about the masculines, here) who have a lack of respect for the "spaces" of people who ID differently than they do. I would not go into a thread that was set aside for Lesbians/Dykes and talk about my experience as a "Bisexual/Pansexual". Because I feel that it would be off-topic and inappropriate.

Not a war, no. I do on occasion see people trying to have a "Femme-off" in which they try to prove that they are more Femme than the next Femme, or that their way of Femme is the correct way of being Femme. What I tend to chalk that up to is that the person initiating that stupid dialogue probably has no real-time community, ergo only sees/knows/experiences other Femmes on a pretty surface level...and simply doesn't know better.

No.

I have a human identity. Unless you're talking pronouns, in which case it's "she" or "bitch, please".

No. What I do think is that the adage "if you expect to find oppression everywhere...you will" (something like that) is at work here. I see people presuming the worst intentions of others and getting their feelings hurt when in reality the person who has hurt their feelings -really- has done nothing hurtful.

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No
* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No
* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
attack?
ummmm, no, I do feel the uneasinest that has started with all these discussions but I do also appreciate "almost all" of the adult conversations that have come from them. It has been very interesting to me, as a femme, to see/read the responses and then the responses to the responses. It certainly makes me stop and think about the wordage that I use and makes me determined to be more careful.
* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not? No, not at all.....seems to be more of the masculine ID's IDs that has been the hot topic.
* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

contribute? Well, as I've said in the other threads...I like to LISTEN to what my sig other or friend for that matter WANTS to be called and address them in that manner. Seems easy enough. In the threads? I reallly try HARD to not step on toes. Sometimes it happens anyway...but with the posts I've read over the past few days, I'm learning to be even more careful. BTW, it's not that I'm afraid to step on toes at all, it's just not my style.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
Totally feminine, totally woman. No ifs ands or buts to ME that is.
* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I believe it all starts with the internal and once that internal has been fed into the mind and heart long enough, it then proclaims to the outside world what the ID is and feels worthy to be called. I really think some of us took a long time and watched/read/talked long and hard until we found a true gender identity that suited us all individually. With that said, of course we feel strong about how we see ourselves and just want others to see us that way as well. The problems come in when you have this strong inner ID and someone comes along and seems to want to change it.

Don't matter what others think or say or desire or exhibit or intrude on IDs ..what matters is that the internal fixation of your journey has been made and completed and YOU know who you are.....that is the most important ID of all. Just knowing who you are. Titles are a dime a dozen as are opinions. Learning is what I hope to do here, and not judge. Learning, in the end is really all that life is about...IMO

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

Sometimes. Sometimes it seems as if I (I want to say we, but I can't talk for anyone else)have to walk on eggshells when it comes to butch/trans ID... as if it is so fragile, as if the outside world has been so hard that they have to be coddled, put first, their wants and needs come before anyone else...
Sometimes it feels like there is no right way... If you go from a female/woman default, then you have the male id'd screaming that they exist as well.. If you add male or woman, then you have people who feel butch is a gender up in arms because they are just butch and don't feel they are being respresented..
Sometimes.. to me.. for me.. it feels like I am in the middle of a group of children all screaming for attention, for me to tell them they are special and they are seen...

Sometimes I just close out the window and go away... Because in life I have to deal with guys coming before me... At the job, at the store, hell in line at freaking mcd's... They are busy, they have important stuff to do, they need to have their needs met first... Because sometimes it feel like that here too.. Male is all inportant and we need to move over and make room for them where ever they want that room to be..

So sometimes I feel that way... other times I don't...

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No... I personaly think that in every gender/race/religion there are broad spectums of every personality trait... I don't believe one is better than the other, that one is special... It simply is what you are.. you can't make one the standard.. (This one was hard for me.. It took a lot of undoing to stop seeing myself as less than because I was told I wasn't as femme as I should be.. But I am.. I am the only kind of femme I can be.. just as you are the only kind of femme you can be..)

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
For me? No.. I don't think there is any agenda.. Sometimes I think it's leak over from the world.. In the world, a mans place is any place that he says it is.. Sometimes I think this mind set colors the way that conversations develope..

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I don't.. Maybe I don't see it, but I've never felt that from another femme.. All my femmie insecurities came from butches telling me I was less than because I wasn't this or that...

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

No.. I don't think I have that power.. But most of the butches/Tguys that I know have done lots of work on who they are and are pretty secure in them selves before we even meet..

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
I have a feminine identity.. I don't know what it would feel like to have a masculine identity

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

Yes, I do... My partner and I were talking about this last night.. That society conditions women to put the wants and needs of men first.. (we were talking history) and how that translates to butch/femme... I was talking about how when women introduce themseves, they Id who their husband is and how long they have been married, how many children they have, and last they talk about them selves... I brought up the point that when femmes have a thread for themselves, they talk about their partners, or butches...
QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Medusa;115551]As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

As a human, if and when I feel animosity against anyone, it is based on the content of their character, nothing else.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

I don't see myself as being at war with anyone. War is violence. I don't do violence

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

What I see is butches who have had to be "out there" in order to be who they are. A group who has pretty much taken shit all their lives in order to just live life. Be it the female id's hearing you just wanna be men, which they don't want to be, or the male id's being told they are women, which they aren't. Butches are who they are period.
I don't think anyone has an agenda, I think people want to be seen for who they are. I for one see butches for who they are.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I would prepose that if femmes id both male and female we would see the same thing going on with femmes. No matter how we see our selves as femme, we all use the pronoun her/she etc. There might be convos about feeling femme enough though

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I think butches/trans form their own identity based on who they are, not on what femmes think/say. I sure as hell don't decide who I am or how to be based on what butches think. I do think that some femmes feel a need to defend their butches (god knows they take a lot of crap in the real world)

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have a human identity. That identity is made up of a hella lota traits that fall all over the place on the feminine/masculine continumum.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

What I see is people saying there is a gender war. I see groups trying to be seen. Groups that seem to think that that if one group is seen the other isn't. So often I have to go back and read posts cause my filters tend to see people as sane and nice, I don't see the bull shit person A is calling person B on. After the shit starts flying both sides get ugly and you cant miss the bull.
I just don't understand why we have to function in a win/lose, us/or them mentality.
Some days I just want to say GROW THE FUCK UP it is 2010, there is enough for everyone. We can have win/win, me, you, us, them. We can see everyone. We can assume best case not worst case.



and finally if THEY come for the sexual deviants, they will be coming for ALL OF US, and in that moment we will all be on the same side, defending each other. We have way to much freedom (that we take for granted) when we can argue with the very people we would defend.


I'll be back in just a bit -

* Do you feel ... that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying FUCK about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart (naked, bold, and in big font)

ETA: This is also why I suggest to the admins that they add the word "sexist" to TOS #5 and 5a

I hope that is sufficient, thanks for the thread Medusa!

I guess a Femmes perspective isn't valuable unless it is given in space shared by Butches. Until it is.

I'll be gentle when reading your mind. I promise. you won't feel a thing.:stiletto:

I have to request or at least ask..

Can we keep our femme stuff in the femme thread and not drag it out for butch validation

please?

:computer2:

No, i do not.

No.

No. i see defensiveness and fear and a lot of people seeing things only through their own lens.

No.

i do. i think we form identities in part to attract the kind of people we want to attract.

i don't think of it that way, but feminine.
No, i do not think there is a gender war. Yes, sexism and misogyny are behind a lot of the group dynamics that are taking place.

I'm not sure this & SF's above post are directed at me -- but if they are -- that's not at all what I was doing when I posted in the butch thread. See my response there. If you care to.

*sigh*

I'm gonna say right here in this safe respected femme zone that I feel really defeated. And fucking sad. So sad, I'm actually crying. WTH? I'm so done now. I'm really fucking done.

Thanks.

My intent was not to make you cry, it's a simple request to it feels oogy to have things dragged from here to a butch zone, it's dismissive almost make sense?

Heart? I am sorry you are crying and I hope you know that is not something anyone would strive for.

I totally *get* how important a conversation about misogyny and sexism is, and how important it is to you personally. I do.

I am not trying to negate that in any way, but I would beg of you to realize that while those things are crucial to this conversation they are not the only thing this is about.

I've had my own cry today after somebody took the title of an article I wrote for another site and brought it over here in a somewhat convoluted manner.

So if it matters, I, Me, Adele feel a little more comfortable having this discussion in the manner that Medusa framed it here. From a Femme perspective. Because at the end of the day, a Femme perspective (or rather MY Femme perspective) is the only perspective I can address without speculation.

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No, but I have.
(insert gasps of horror from the peanut gallery here)
I have learned, perhaps through age or gaining more wisdom, that it's foolishly ignorant to lump entire groups of people together as if one speaks for all and vice versa.
In the way that racism, sexism, sizeism, homophobia, etc. work by ignorance, fear, or outright prejudices taking root where critical thought should reside, I have to raise my hand high here and plead a big, fat "Guilty". I'd be lying my ass off if I said that I hadn't made the comment, "I am so sick of logging into the Dash site and seeing that every single thread on the front page is about Trans issues, WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE BUTCHES AND FEMMMMMEEESSSSSS???" (and insert some dramatic chest pounding here please because I do so love the hystrionics). I'd be lying if I said that I didn't at that time translate that to an erasure of my own Butch/Femme culture and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think that "Trans people were taking over."
I said those things. I thought those things. It's the truth.
In excavating the "Why" behind all of that, I found a lot of fear and triggery stuff in my own personal orbit. The fear of being erased, the fear of being marginalized, the fear of having a binary that I didn't want in my orbit shoved front and center into the very orbit I was trying to "protect".
I was reacting to the fear by feeling "attacked". The fact of the matter was that the abundance of Trans threads on the front page of a website did not "erase" me as a Femme. One did not negate the other.
At the time, not seeing threads that related directly to me or the Butch people that I choose to partner with felt as if my world was getting smaller and smaller. Why? I had to ask myself-- WAS my world getting smaller and smaller? WAS I being erased? WAS I being homogenized without my consent?
Looking back on that thought process now, I see where I was basing the existence of mySELF on how other people exist. (Trans people in that example). The value of mySELF on the value of other people. The validity of my way of being and identity on how many visual cues I had on the front page of a website. Fear. Ignorance. Transphobia.
The "but what about MEEEEEEE?" is as loud in my head when *I* feel it as it is on the screen when I see other people doing it.

Now, the above feelings didnt happen in a vacuum for me. We DO live in a very fucked up world where women are seen as less than and devalued and disrespected on a daily fucking basis. So guess what? I personalized the political. Because it IS personal. Except when it isnt.
I accept that I have to claim MY space in this world without infringing on, negating, or disrespecting someone else's space, otherwise I'm no better than the greater social construct that disrespects me.
That whole "becoming part of the problem" thing when I act out on the micro-cause, hoping to affect the macro.


* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

I don't see my gender ID or personal self feeling at war with other Femme ID's. I would boil it down to a matter of security with my identity and an acceptance that someone else's way of Femme doesn't really have squat to do with mine.
I will use Leah Lakshmi Piepzna Samarasinha's whole "Femme Shark" identity as my case in point. Leah has quite a following with her Femme Shark identity and a lot of other amazing, powerful Femmes who identify as Femme Sharks. I do not identify as a Femme Shark, nor do I feel threatened by the presence of Femme Sharks, nor do I feel the need to investigate/parse/tease out/question/infiltrate/dismiss/invalidate anyone who chooses to identify as a Femme Shark.

As far as being complicit in a war between Butch or Trans IDs, I don't want to be held responsible for the way someone else identifies but I fully recognize that we all impact each other whether we want to or not.
I think that there have been times when "The Universal Femme" has been held responsible for "good Butches transitioning because they have been pushed toward maleness". Or other times when "The Universal Femme" (per example in another thread) is responsible for the pronoun default to "he" for all Butches.
This, quite frankly, pisses me off. It's scapegoating to hold an entire group of people, some of whom who may have never EVER defaulted to "he" for any Butch, responsible for Butch people feeling marginalized. I believe that shit should be called it as it happens, when it happens, and to the person who does it and not left to fester and boil over like a shitty stew until "The Universal Femme" is now to blame for the entire fuckery.
I also believe that if we are talking specifically about this website or the dash site that "whoever" (my Gotdayum hat is OFF so yes, Im going there) is in charge has a fucking RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that things like someone saying that "Femmes like to be handled by Transmen because they are stronger than Butches" is checked hard, swiftly, and responsibly. Because THAT shit? Left unchecked? IS DAMAGING. Not only to the Butch that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, but also to the Femme that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, but also to the other Transmen that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, AND to the community at large that it disrespects.



* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

An agenda? No.
What I *do* see happening is a LOT of personalization and reflecting back to the self even when someone else is looking at their own reflection in the community mirror. I see people *feeling* attacked and reacting to it in ways that are sometimes healthy and sometimes not healthy. I see lines being drawn, fences being built, flags being staked, surveys being done, voices being drowned out, etc.
I see exchanges being made-- "Im going to have to have some of your space so I can have my own" without those words being said out loud.
I see something shitty going on around only being able to honor something if something else is dishonored.


* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

No. I never have actually. I have certainly felt the ridiculous trappings of "Well, Im a better Femme than you because I don't even OWN a pair of flats!" but I usually read that as insecurity or ignorance.
If the person saying it is at all intelligent, it pisses me of for them to stoop down to that "IM A DIAMOND PLATINUM FORMICA CRYSTAL FEMME AND YOUUUUUUUU ARE NOT!" (implied Nanny Nanny Boo Boo here) because it feels a little simple and well, I expect better than that from smart people.
I actually see Femmes doing a better job of managing ourselves around respecting each other's way of being Femme. Im sure Im going to catch some shit for that statement but it's how I feel. I recognize that Femmes often do not have the same gender filters that Butches and Transmen have because I think most Femmes do identify as female or woman but I've seen Femmes talk openly about feeling like a boi inside or feeling masculine and I don't recall seeing other Femmes go into the conversation with anything about how the Femme who id'd as a boi was invalidating/marginalizing/disrespecting the Femme who didnt.


* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?


As a whole, no, I don't think that Femmes have the power to influence the identity formation of Butches or Transmen. On a micro level? On an individual level? HELL. YES.
I've seen it, I've heard it, I've felt it. It's my truth.
I'll have to go back to my irritation about someone being comfortable and secure with themselves here. People , to me, are responsible for *themselves* and thus, must take responsibility for their own identity and gender formation regardless of who they are dating. If the person (of any gender) is secure/informed/comfortable with themselves, there is NOTHING that I or "The Universal Femme" should be able to say or do to make that person change how they are existing. If *they* change how they are existing to fit someone else's idea of existing, THEY are responsible for that.


* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have both and embrace them both. Both my feminine self and masculine self (which I identify as Dyke) are equally valuable, authentic, and valid. So are yours, whoever you are.


* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I don't know if I would go so far as to call it a Gender War but I definitely see something happening. Fencing, dividing, borders, etc. I am reading animosity from some women and female identified Butches around their treatment on not only this website but other websites and the world at large. I am reading animosity from people who are tired of going round and round about this issue. I am reading animosity from people who wish we would look at being at war or the oil spill in the Gulf as more important than the naval-gazing and self-identifying.

I am *feeling* irritated with the circular jerking off of our collective gender organs where the fucking money shot never gets cleaned up. Instead we are all stepping in and around each other's goo and I am just weary with the whole "never getting anywhere" part of it.

I DO think that the world is chock full of sexism and misogyny and that yes, we MUST work to dismantle it, but NOT by using the tool of misandry to do it and NOT at the expense of male or masculine identified people.
We cannot "fix" sexism by singing "I am Woman" at the top of our lungs in our cubicles at work (believe me, I tried). All that does is make us look like "militant feminists who really arent interested in anything but our own agendas". We cannot force people to examine their internal misogyny by using anger or waggling our fingers in their faces. We can BE angry. We can BE pissed off. We can BE sick of it. We can BE thinking that they are a mouth-breathing idiot, but I have found that people have to do their own work and be WILLING to do their own work.
The willingness? We cant do shit about that. Some people are just fine being ignorant dipshits.


I have a LOT more to say here but I need a Diet Coke (smirk at Linus) BBIAB.

oh goodie, I love questionaires

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

nope

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

There have been times when I have seen some grumblings regarding different descriptions of femmes ("high femme" comes to mind) and I've also seen some grumblings about femmes feeling negated by others if they are stone bottoms or some femmes feeling negated because of an expectation that stone bottom-femmes are somehow femmier than the rest of us. But I haven't seen anything heated regarding this lately and I don't think it amounts to a "war" anyway. Have we ironed all that out already?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I'm on the fence with this one. I think people sometimes embark on a gender exploration when they feel safe to do so, and part of feeling safe for a lot of people is to feel like you are loved and will be loved and accepted no matter what. I think also if a person feels their genuine ID is unpopular amongst femmes (or whomever a person is attracted to), that can make a person feel not so good.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I feel I'm both feminine and masculine. I'm also bigender, and my boy is more feminine than my girl if anything.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

No, I really don't think there's a gender war, but I feel like there really isn't a gender peace either.

I feel like sexist and misogynist society is at work at large and within me, and the best I can do is try to know it in myself and "be the change I want to see in the world." I also think within and without our community, we are potentially dealing with homophobia and transphobia too - and sometimes these different elements can work to obfuscate what's really going on in any conversation.

my responses in green:

YES! I swear not even 2 days ago I looked at Jackhammer in the middle of a conversation about identities and said that claiming the "she" that I am and that she is in our own separate ways is fucking subversive. (and that's hot)
I see some parallels about it having been a subversive act on the dash site to demand and claim female when things were particularly hostile toward "all things female" there.(my read)


I'm crazy glad you brought this up. I feel like it's a touchy subject about the movement of more young butches toward a Trans identity because I do see layers of "the answer to my "I dont feel ok" problem within that youth community sometimes. And no, it's not really about ageism for me - It is about the youth of anyone's gender identity and how I relate it to what I see as an evolution process for all of us.
Sometimes I have wondered if it is about internal misogyny, about power dynamics, about wanting to gain privilege, about the subversive and intentional "othering" of the self that says "SEEE! SEEEEEE! I really AM a unique and special butterfly!!"
I also recognize that I don't have the right to question any individual's journey to themself, even if it doesn't make sense to me. I would like to understand it though and I hope I get to ask (respectful) questions to make that happen.

Word. I think this is what Heart has touched on all over the place (not said in a snarky way, but a way that says I recognize she has been advocating for this vehemently and with utter commendable conviction).
I see misogyny dictating that not only are women "less than" men, but that women also must be "less than" each other. Because that whole construct of "You must be this type of woman with x, y, and z characteristics to be considered valid, desireable, acceptable, and any other number of "unattainable" virtues" is at work *within* our own female communities. Hello? Look at the fractioning with the female/male identities in the Butch communities and the "Diamond-encrusted best-Femme-in-the-Universe EWWWWWWWwouldnevereatpussybecauseitsickybutpleaseo penmydoorbecauseImahelplesswiddlekitten" shit that tries to play out in the Femme community.
That shit is not just about people trying to "gender top" one another. It's the ingrained messages that the world feeds us from DAY ONE about who we are supposed to be and how we are supposed to get there.
I'm guilty as FUCK of buying into it in my lifetime - being the "mean girl" who had to automatically hate all amazing women because I wasn't as "insert whatever" as them. Those messages and my own inability to look inward at WHY and question if any of that shit was real ROBBED me of many possibly good friendships with other women because I was too busy being jealous, suspecting them of wanting to fuck my girlfriend, competing, and feeling insecure in the glow of their amazingness. I felt incredibly empowered the minute I said, "No More" to myself and it changed my world for the better.
I'm a better friend because of that, a better partner, and a happier person because I examined and questioned and evolved and am still willing to do more to shed that fucking nasty ass snakeskin of bullshit that the world throws on us the minute we are born if it means I get to have more Junes and Arwens and Divas and Michelleys and Snows and Adeles and Prettys and NJFemmes and Nats and Betes and Irishes in my life.

You just nailed the crux of what has been on my mind for the last few days. I have become painfully irritated with some of the squealing "Me-ism" that I have seen in parts of this site but I do examine that as a personal communication style that bothers me no matter what the person might be talking about. That's a personal filter for me, doesn't mean that what the person is saying isn't valid...it just means I have to work a little harder to hear them through the noise that is bothering me.


:rockband:

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No, I sidestep constantly
* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?No

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?
The only "war" I see, seems to be on behalf of some Femme's Butch counterparts, and i find that sad...
* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?
We all contribute to each others sense of who we are, how can we not ? That called influence and involvement, friendship.
* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
My identity is Femme. I have many characteristics, which some divide up and attribute to masculine and/or feminine. I don't.
* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that to deny the influence of a larger society , which I do see as misogynistic & sexist, would be naive. But, I think its influence is not as clear cut, as some seem to think

As a general statement, I feel that there is a ton of "blame the Femme's " going on, which both angers me, and amuses me, because I see that, as a manifestation of that oft referenced sexism and misogyny
Now I will read everyone else's answers..

YES! Women being the root of all evil in the world and all - Quick! Someone get an apple and offer it to the first Butch you see! Oooh, and then dress seductively and stand on the rocky shores and lure in the poor unsuspecting sailors! AND THEN, when you're done with that, take away the virtual pee-pee's of other people by merely talking about you're ability to change a tire, open your own damn door, build your own house, clean your own gutters, or (GASP) form an opinion without checking in with anyone else first!!

All personal amusement aside, I am also wondering if there aren't some swirlings of an enforced (expected?) nurturing from Femmes with other people's identities.

Good stuff.

Yeppers, you got my reference perfectly thanks !:rrose:

I cringe every time I see someone crossing the fine line between having feeling about an identity and speaking *for* those identities. I don't want any one speaking about how I do Femme, particularly a Butch or Trans person. How would they know? Conversely, I don't want to speak FOR somebody's identity.

I hope that makes sense.

Totally does. I have seen Femmes (talking about Femmes specifically not because I think we are the only guilty party but because this thread is for us to deconstruct ourselves) play "nurturer" and "Mother" in threads by explaining away bad behavior or trying to "pat pat soothe soothe" the entire conversation.
Another hand raised in "Guilty" for me too at times.
I think that from the time we are born we are told we are the "nurtures" of the world, the "fixers", that it is our job to make everything ok for everyone.
Some of us shed that because we're sick of it but I do see some people embracing it.

I think that there is a reward from our Butch counterparts for being the nurturer. Which makes it feel to me like a Femme in Shining Armor kind of thing. But at the end of they day, is it really helping? Because I think it succeeds only in further alienating Femmess from each other and taking away the voices of Butches.

I have been guilty of this too btw. Don't get me wrong, it is so easy to fall into. Especially when you are in love and tend to take on the weight of your beloveds world on your shoulders. I have to do a lot of work not to do that. :dimbulb:

I certainly get the expectations of society at large and all IDs in general put on me as a feminine woman, as a mother, as a bitch, as a boss....

I see the blame the femme thing of which Merrick speaks.

And not only do I see it - I see it as something that people have used as a unifier. I think that makes sense.

The specific example was in a thread - and honestly my head is about to explode and I can't remember where - but butches were having the "default to he" argument and the one thing that the female ID and the male ID seemed to agree on (well for a page anyway) was that it wasn't them - it was the femme's who were "guilty" of it....and as I was reading it I rememeber thinking "as if that is a femme thing really???" One femme agreed, but not in an analytical way - more of in a "yeah, we're bad" kinda way....yanno...Giggle. No one disputed this "fact." Yet I had SEEN lots and lots of people do it, regardless of ID.

That to me is misogyny - where femmes are expected to hold their own and everyone else's own. The weight put on them for all problems regardless of who's problems they happen to be. By having someone to blame they can use it to bring them closer, never sorting out the shit from the soap.....they really all could just get along if femmes would just not screw it up for them. It reads to me as them sighing, shaking their collective heads and saying "fucking women" to me.

Words and labels. As much as we hate them we use them. I thought I had it figured out and I don't. The last thing I want to be is "careful" and feel like I'm walking on egg shells because my "words" hold a different meaning then yours or my needs are based on my current perception and not a political correct agenda.

Honestly... butch, boi, him, he, hym, FTM, trans, whatever. None of it really matters to me as far as who I would love. I love the contrast to my feminine physicality. I really don't want to try and describe what "kind" of femme I am because I've worked so hard on just being the person I am. This long hair and big ass boobed woman has a strong streak often viewed as masculine and because I'm as capable as a man I'm thought to be less feminine. Go figure! Fuck that!

I find myself feeling bad for the choice of words I use to define my feelings and how I overlooked or misunderstood someone else's feelings. It wasn't intentional. I find myself exiting and retreating out of discussion because I realize I might not know what the fuck I'm talking about or I'm just not into the confrontation I often see here. Some people are into that type of debate and others prefer lighthearted more compassionate dialog.

I'm a woman. For whatever reason I'm not attracted to men that are born as men. Now and then I'll see a hottie but I havent had a relationship with a man since my early early 20's and that was a weird circumstance. For some reason I became attracted to women that looked like boys. The more I explored that I became more and more attracted to masculinity. Hell 10 years ago I would have never considered dating an FTM and that is still a learning thing for me. I'm still trying to figure it all out.

I'm queer and I'm here.

please don't take this as a slight, but because this is in the *femme* zone and you've made it clear in other thread/threads that you do not identify as *femme*--could you speak to the identity-place that you're posting from?

i think it matters. thank you.

As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No. My issues are more about cultural appropriation of terms and have some issues with shifting paradigms that redefine language or “borrow” language. This, I believe, is a privilege of aging, to have cultural and multi-generational perspective and to also “own” my point of view. (So we add sexism and ageism to the umbrella.)

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
I see individual agendas and opinions but to attack a whole group, no. I also get really tired of those who “speak for” others in general or in specific.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?
Again, I see differing styles, personalities, opinions and agendas but war, no.


* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?
I believe we all contribute to each other’s identity in some form or another. We are social animals, we learn from our experiences with others no matter what gender. We do not develop in a vacuum.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
I have a “me” identity. My sash husband once said to me, “You confuse me. You have a very femme part of you and a very butch part of you.” At first I was confused then we had a whole discussion about personality and how society deems personality traits “feminine or masculine”. Like being blunt is a masculine trait. Huh?

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?
I do not think in terms of military or war to look at the manifestation of internal locus. I think that sexism and misogyny is part of the umbrella of ism’s that play a part in our society and therefore affect (effect? I always get those confused) every aspect of our lives. Do I lose sleep over it? No. I have worked to fight isms for over 35+ years. As Margaret Mead said, “Instead of being presented with stereotypes by age, sex, color, class, or religion , people must have the opportunity to learn that within each range, some people are loathsome and some are delightful. “ Part of “isms” is to lump people together by relying on stereotypes. If I have issues with people, I deal with the people and do not transfer those issues to an entire gender or community.

Wow. I hope you got everything you hoped for out of that.

As long as we're being honest.......
 

Medusa asked:
* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

:cat:Over the last 10 years (my gay lifetime), I have seen many changing definitions and expressions of gender in our community. I think we define and redefine ourselves more than many groups of people, partly because we are forging uncharted territory, socially, and culturally, as well.

Sitting back and watching the unfolding reminds me of looking into a kaleidoscope, and exploring each possible combination of butch-femme identity, and the interplay that emerges. I have at times wondered if certain B-F websites were someones PHD thesis, it is interesting enough of a process to be one. I love us, for being able to create and recreate ourselves. So, animosity, no. Occasionally, fondly amused at the drama of the process, yes.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

:cat: No, the last thing I want is for us to turn on each other. OUCH. Honestly though, there are some gender concepts that have taken some time for me to understand. As my understanding grows, I have noticed my tastes and attractions seem to be evolving as well. Case in point: I came out as a lesbian ID'd femme, and it took me some serious contemplation and questioning to understand the needs of Stone Butches. Once I got it? I think they are right up there with chocolate ~YUMMY. As a community we are all growing, and our process at times reflects those growing pains.


* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

:cat:I see certain individual people having strong personalities and opinions. Often, not stopping to think if their behavior hurts another. I don't see that as a gender issue, rather, a personality issue.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

:cat:I see certain individual people having strong personalities and opinions and varying levels of tolerance. Often, not stopping to think if their behavior hurts another. I don't see that as a gender issue, rather, a personality issue.


* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

:cat: Yes, I think it is natural to want to please the ones we love. Hopefully within healthy, self identified, boundaries. I know I would stretch my boundaries some, for the one I loved, to give them what they desire. But I can't change the essence of who I am, without betraying self.


* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

:cat: A feminine identity, inspired more by my connection to the Divine Feminine, than any cultural norm.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

:cat: No, I don't, and think it is unhealthy for our community to keep saying there is. I believe we can do better, and that we are worth more than that.I think the real issue is that there are individuals within our community, with varying levels of tolerance, kindness, and communication skills, participating in the process of us defining our gender identities. And It's not cool to be a bully.............

:kissy: Thanks for asking

or, you could just answer the question, claire.

adorable - it confused me too that you said earlier that you are not a femme and now you are speaking from femme perspective. It sounds like you are feminine and queer and a woman but may not id as a femme. Would that be accurate? If so, I'm sure your experiences and insights overlap plenty of femme experiences/insights whether or not you have claimed the ID "femme" for yourself.

What on earth difference does it make? Femme's post in the butch zone. Everyone posts in the trans zone and so far almost every ID has been in the lesbian zone.

So unless someone finds my post insulting or there is something WRONG with my post - I don't see how the fact that I don't ID as a femme has any bearing on that. And I didn't post from a femme perspective. I agreed with two femme's perspectives. I posted from MY perspective as a woman who lives and breathes just like other women.

But unlike others on here I have been asked to show MY queer card for consistency? Right.

Well since what you are asking for is to me to justify how come *I* can post where I please let me list all the things I can think of that might get me past the gatekeepers.

My GENDER is woman.
MY ID QUEER
I am 5'6" tall.
I have two girls and am a single mother.
I own my own home and have a valid driver's license.
I work full time.
I wear lipstick.
I worked two full time jobs AS a single mother and earned a bachelor's degree in War Crimes.
I don't wear underwear.
I liked to be fucked by mean TGs while I call them daddy.
I also like to fuck mean women who call me daddi.
I drink unsweet Ice Tea
I wear mini skirts occasionally, heels too
I have knocked out a man with an unopened can of diet pepsi
I run a business
I drive an Impala with heated leather seats
I'm fat but sadly not in the right places anymore
I work with LGBT youth in my community
I am a published author
I was passed over for a promotion once because I was a woman



If there is anything else that you need to know for me to be able to post, by all means let me know....

Hmm, perhaps this is a good illustration of gender tensions that can rise up -defensiveness of and possible hostility/"gate-keeping" toward women who don't identify as butch or femme.

The term "femme" and I had to wrestle a lot before we were comfortable with each other, and I did feel more defensive or like the environment was more hostile in some ways back then. It's interesting to see the shoe on the other foot.

I like iced tea too :)

I think you were simply asked to clarify.
Those of us, who do ID as Femme, often spent some time struggling with it.
I would have asked the same, if I had known that you did not. I note, no one asked you NOT to Post, simply asked from what perspective, were you indeed posting. I don't gate keep the word Queer, or the word Femme. Nonetheless, this is a Femme's Perspective Thread, and as such, if you are posting in it and don't identify as Femme, a certain amount of explanation/clarification, seems at the very least..polite, imho, of course ;)
I am also a great fan of Iced Tea, minimally sweetened if at all ; )

And yet it's not asked of others who post in other threads to which they don't claim that particular ID?

And it's based on what? If my post had been dismissive, or disrespectful or out of line - ok - I could see that. In fact I HAVE seen that.
Since it wasn't...
Why is this zone, different then other zone's?
Why would you ask me to clarify *IF* you knew that I didn't ID as a femme?
Butch or Femme for me are not genders - I actually don't claim either for myself out of respect for those who do.. regardless - I find it odd that I am asked to clarify who I am in order to post.
Does someone's gender or personal ID change the truth or un-truth in what they say?
If people are going to start reading posts along these lines and people collectively are going to be questioned about who they are so that other people can determine if their post is worthy of consideration - it does take away from the discussion factor...
It also puts those of us in the other category left out of discussions that matter just as much to us as everyone else.