Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen
 

I don't think this will be an easy conversation, hell it may be a hard one but I do feel one that must be had. I also felt it needed to be out of the thread that AtlastHome made, yes I am aware it includes everyone, yet I feel if femme's go in there it will change it due to sometimes it turns into a pick up zone or flirt zone. This is a thread that can do some good hence the start of this one. I am also aware I may get my ass handed to me.

*deep breath*

How do we support in the building of friendships between the butches and transmen in our community?

I hope we can be honest and transparent in this convo.

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying (I've caught myself agreeing with you of late) ... I think that it's a idea good to have a "butch/transmen only" thread (even though AtLast invited everyone ...) it seems to me, in my limited time and experiences here, that when femmes enter, our dynamics shift or change somewhat. And no, I'm too tired to give examples. 'sides, it is always a "feeling" that I have when reading posts. Nuanced ...

And yes, we should also have this discussion open and here ... and as well as having Atlast's or another thread as a place, a zone, where butch/transmen, etc. can bond and talk ... it has already done a good thing for me ... I have new friends!

I just reread this and I'm not sure that I've made a lick of sense ... it's time for my pup's walk!

Hi, Lady Snow!
Are you asking this question to femmes or to butches and transmen? Or is it an open question for both groups?

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

I'm struggling to come up with a response to this thread.

I have answers and they are not popular.

I have to wonder if sometimes Femmes don't benefit from building fences rather than bridges. Why? Because then we get to go in and cheerlead and champion and nurture.

I am fully aware that some thoughts and opinions that will be expressed here will not be popular ones...

I am not ashamed to say I have done nothing to stop this as I watch it happen or hear it or see it.

I sit back and do nothing or keep quiet so I am not the constant cunt.

Today I am ok with that, and yes SF I do feel we femmes cause A LOT of tall fences when it comes to dividing these two groups.

NOT all femme's, but some of us do.

You realize your idea of play dates and my idea of play dates are probably totally the opposite...

:praying:

:|:|:|:|:|

oh! sorry, I misinterpreted your intent. this, then, is a thread for femmes, right. I'll just read respectfully and keep to the other thread then.
Thanks for clarifying ...

I just figured you would want the space in the other thread...

I was not sure how to handle it, I am ok if you are here, if everyone else is.

I always thought it was cool that the UK butch femme transguy site has

and

Because I think there are potentially times when people of different identities may need a bit of sanctuary while working stuff out about their/our IDs.

I have no objections but I haven't read the other thread :) I find the subject of this thread to be very compelling as a stand-alone and I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

No really.

Do you know what I am talking about?

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

I have experienced it and seen it the one minute we date a butch then we date a transperson.

We are bitter after the break up and we dog the other gender presentation to make us feel good.

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)

Yes....

Someone I know calls it....

Lemme think of the word

Placating

I agree

It is really oogey

I have never ever seen a real live case of this so called rhoid rage.

I HAVE seen the gender tear down, and it's ugly.

Abuse, screaming and rage is always a stereotype foe Anyone that dates a transguy, because they always use T as an excuse.

Not every transguy experiences the same side effects from T. I get one side effect, after my shot i usually get a headache. Same thing after 3 years on T, oh little bit of led foot too

i know im not suppose to be here, but i get what your saying. squeeze the balls harder

So I gotta ask

WTF with the balls comment?

Topic by the balls, squeeze the topic. nothing personal. scooting out of here.

I am gonna clean my answer up because I don't like giving June a headache..

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening.

oy vey.

where were we?

No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!

Thank you for the correction.

You done petting me in the head?

Cause this is what this feels like, you exerting your privi on me

I am not liking it

So please

Back to topic?

I think we should leave the femmes to their thread.

I personally appreciated it when Snow suggested that we just keep our thread butch/trans as she saw that this made the most sense, due to the originally stated goal of the thread.

If this is what you want, Snow, maybe it would be more clear cut if you moved it to the Femme Zone?

I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone, since it is for both groups of people.

Well no, my intent was for it to be here.... I think it sucks that I have to go into Femme Zone.

I don't want to go tag base just to feel safe

Make sense?

Absolutely. And now I will take my leave. :-)

ETA: And you also did say that it was for anyone other than those that identify as Butches or Transmen (so maybe that is another reason why you wouldn't want it in the femme zone).

I hope there are more participants then just us two...

:praying:

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?

aren't we part of that community by virtue of who we love?

I stay out of it too, but then again I am sexually fluid, my attraction to people is not based just solely on gender or gender presentation. So for me and this is just Snow speaking for Snow.

I like em all to be frank.

So to put someone down cause you are now with the other becomes divisive.

I am certainly not speakin for anyone, and know that people can handle their own stuff.

Hence the conception of this thread.

desire, fuck, partner with, hang out with, play with, etc etc.

i'd like to participate, but i kinda feel like i may be one of the people SF was talking about in the post about speaking for butches and that Snow meant when talking about building fences. i hope i never speak for a butch. i have no idea what it's like to be a butch. But i have gotten embroiled in a number of the discussions re the position of female-identified butches on this site and the other.

i feel like i am speaking from my experience of what i have seen.

i definitely know i am not participating to get the approval of a butch or catch her/hys/his attention.

i imagine that people might think i am one of the people building the fences between the two groups. i know that is not my intent.

Maybe i have spent too much time on chat and heard too many femmes refuse to honor a butch's chosen pronouns of she/her and talk about being a true femme and dating only real butches -- and we all know what that stuff means.

i just got fed up. And i saw a lot of sexism in it. And it bothered me.

i hope i have not built fences. But i just really dislike the sexist and homophobic elements in our culture, and i can't seem to ignore them.

So the effect has been that i have stirred some shit in those threads.

How can i influence people to build bridges? i honestly don't know.

i think calling other femmes on their heteronormative bullshit is a first step. That creates some hostility and resentment between groups.

i don't see myself as a support for any category of people on this site or in the butch-femme community. i really basically stand up when i feel something is unfair or needs to be said.

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

how can we honor each other in that process?

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?