The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate
 

Apparently a trans woman (pre-op) was denied access to the women's bathroom at a Denny's --- even though she has been using that washroom in that same Denny's for the last year :blink:

Even as an FTM, I have been refused the right to be in the "washroom" or change room of choice. Most recently I had contacted a 24-hour gym to see which facilities I'd be asked to use. They said it would be whatever is on my official ID (which is still F). I somehow doubt that me -- full beard and all -- would be really welcomed in the women's change room.

I was at least pleased that they were honestly enough to reply to my email about this upfront but seriously, it's annoying to wonder at times. I like working out at gyms sometimes (especially spinning classes) but don't want to wait until I have surgery (part of the need to lose weight is in prep for surgery and general health).

Sigh.

Sorry. Just needed to vent a bit. If anyone wants to comment, go for it.

Hey Linus,

That fuckin' bites. I too have dilemmas about which bathroom to use, whether I should use the changing room/lockers at the gym, etc. I generally try to avoid having to make these choices as much as I can. Out in public places, I just hold it until I get home, and try to drink/eat as little as possible. I take my daughter to the movies sometimes and do this. I really hate it. The T I am on hasn't given me any effects except acne so far, but once I start getting the changes I want, that will complicate things further. I really don't know how I am going to handle that.

In September I am going to go on an Alaskan cruise with my parents and aunts and uncles. We sail out of Vancouver Canada. I am anxious about whether I will resemble my current passport photo enough for it not to be questioned. Things like this cross my mind and make me anxious. I tell myself not to worry, that I will cross that bridge when I get there, but that doesn't always help.

Anyhoo, *hug* bro. I hope you find a gym that is enlightened.

Hi Linus,

I can only imagine how challenging that would be...

I work in the fitness industry (with seniors) and know that many of the newer facilities (especially YMCAs) have "family" or "assisted" changing rooms...basically a single small room with lockers in a hallway area outside the room that can be used to secure your belongings.

It can be a bit of a hassle to wait for the space if you're there at a time when lots of families are using them, but it eliminates the "where do I go" problem. I used them alot when my son was 8 or 9. I just wasn't comfortable sending him into the men's locker room alone...and he was too old to be in the women's...so that was our best choice.

Best of luck with your fitness goals! :rrose:

When I move to L.A., I may luck out with a gym on site or not have to worry as much about change rooms (since I want it to be within walking distance but we'll see).

As for passport, as an FYI, I look nothing like mine (the photo is pre-transition) and have never had issue with travel whether in the US or across the border back home. You should be ok.

i recently got a speeding ticket and was questioned by the state trooper about my DL :|

nothing to do with a rest room, just pisses me off

Atomic - The State Department just pasted a new law on June 10, 2010 stating you can change the gender on your passport with only a letter from your doctor stating you are transitioning. I have posted the link below:

http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/2...gender-people/

Rufus

Hey Linus...

Is there a reason you needed to ask the gym about this? Do they require you to show your ID?

Curious...

It's the ID to register with the gym that they use. Since I only have passport and it has my original gender on it.

I avoid public restrooms if at all possible unless I know its a place where I wont have any issues. Its very akward for me, because there has been times where I have been stopped by other men from going into the womens restroom, or where women second guess themselves, or stare at me, for using the womens room.

I don't like akward. I just want to get in, do my business and get out. And at work, its even more akward, because I have to use the womens room, cause the owner would probably freak if I used the mens room. The women go in there and chit chat and stuff, and I just want to go in there and take care of business, not talk about my day....

So I always try to wait until I get home if at all possible. In public, I make my girlfriend go in with me, I have found that if I do it that way, for the womens room, that I get a lot less uncomfortable looks that way.

Khadijah Farmer - 2007
 

I ran across this interview today. I remember when Khadijah Farmer hit the news because she got kicked out of a women's room by a bouncer during pride in 2007 in the middle of Greenwich Village. She did win a settlement in 2008. AND she was asked to pay the bill even though she'd never been given the food she'd ordered.







She won $35k plus

Among the workplace practices that Caliente Cab agreed to adopt in the settlement was to add gender identity and expression to its corporate nondiscrimination policy; to adopt a gender-neutral dress code for its employees; and to amend its employee handbook to state “persons patronizing or employed at Caliente have the right to use the bathroom facilities consistent with their gender identity and expression.”

That's actually a law in NYC, I believe. I actually have a card from the Gender Identity Project meetings which I carry around (not as much an issue today but when I was first transitioning I held on to it for dear life). The Caliente case was particularly annoying since they get their business from the LGBTQ community (as in, it was one of our own). I think that's what caused the biggest ruckus about all this.

It sucks that a card would have been necessary, but that doesn't sound like a bad way to carry around at least a little back-up if things really escalated in that sort of situation.

I remember a few years back, Rainbow Cattle Company (gay bar) in Austin put these signs on the doors of their bathrooms insisting that only men use the men's room and only women use the women's room, and it did seem especially awful that it was "family" who decided to implement this policy and that they seemed to have no understanding of gender variance. That bar is closed now, and I don't know if others in Austin have similar policies.

Butch in the bathroom :)
 

My super-Christian conservative Texan-small-town workplace has a new member of it's cleaning staff - who happens to be - (okay, I know it's wrong to assume) - appears to be a butch.

What so totally rocks about this is the fact that there is often a masculine woman in the bathroom when I walk in. Which means the hundreds of women who work in my cubicle-land may have the opportunity to lose their startle response in the butch bathroom encounter. At least that's what I hope. :)

bathrooms
 

i am fortunate to look like i do. i just go where i fuck well please and do what the hell i want and nobody says shit to me.:thinking:
i TOLD the people at the gym that i would be using the men's locker room.
i haven't used a women's facilty for years, even before the T, because i would get funny looks, and i have never even gotten a second glance in a men's room, except at Play, and he was definitely cruising me.:blink:

@

sure as hell sounds like you're real tough.

Peeing in peace
 

A short snippet from the TLC Restroom Resource Guide Mike posted:

Strategy #2: Confidence
Using gender segregated bathrooms may be nerve-wracking at times but it is important that you realize you have a right to be there, no ma􀄴er how other people react to you. You belong in the bathroom that makes you feel most comfortable as much as anyone else does. Being confident lets other people know that as well.
If you are feeling nervous when entering a bathroom, take a deep breath and remind yourself that there’s nothing wrong with you and that you have the right to be there as much as anyone else does. If necessary, keep taking deep breaths and repeat the phrase, “I belong here” in your mind while you are in
the bathroom.

There are parts of this I really do like. However, have you ever tried walking into a bathroom with hardly any hair/masculine features/non shaved legs if in shorts etc...?
I could have (which I thankfully do not) a big O flappin vagina hangin out and still catch shit. (okay, that didn't sound right) Not just from women but from men who may be waiting outside for their daughters.
The last time this happened an elderly woman gasp and said "you are in the wrong place"! I simply told her "I've been touching this thing for 45 years, I know where I belong" she winked, apologized and kept steppin.
The man was stupid enough to put his hand on me as if to stop me. He may or may not recover that testicle.

Well, since i only shave my legs on Saturdays, does that count as "non-shaved legs"? :giggle:

Seriously, i've never had to face any sort of bathroom issue personally. my previous relationships have been with masculine butches and a transguy, so i have seen what they go through on a daily basis.

i promise i wasn't trying to tell people how to behave or anything of that sort. i just thought that the guide was very well written, and this particular point stood out.

(and um...i'm kinda glad you don't have *anything* hanging out...i'd have to laugh if ya did!)

I realise there are not many Torontonians around these parts, but thought I'd share the link in case a few happen to trickle in. For those it might be useful for who weren't aware before (just found this myself as a new student there), the University of Toronto has gender neutral washrooms spread out around its various campuses, particularly St. George campus in the downtown core. Here is a compiled list of all the gender neutral washrooms on campus: http://www.sgdo.utoronto.ca/washrooms/Locations.htm

I've noticed a few restaurants/coffee shops in the area like Tim Horton's across from the varsity field has single-user washrooms as well that don't require you get a key from the counter to use.

I'm designing a house built for 100+ toilets only. One area is gender neutral, and another area has round circles for some folks who want to watch each other.

The bathroom butch is already gone. I asked another member of the cleaning staff and he said he didn't know anything except that she's gone.

This site also appears useful -

http://safe2pee.org/

Interesting article: URINARY SEGREGATION

Thoughts anyone?

CTW

Unless they are single user washrooms, I'm not sure a multi-user gender neutral washroom would work, and I would think there are safety concerns which the author didn't address as I would have (the author put it down to the "purity of white femininity," which I really don't undersand, unless the USA really is that different from Canada). The issue of bathrooms at home not being segregated by gender only works if we're talking single user washrooms. I think gender neutral multi user washrooms would only work if we started putting security guards inside public washrooms, personally. Not all users or even most users would commit any wrong against another person, but those who are more inclined to do so will have a much easier time of it.

My brain has been boiling about this issue. Now .. I have designed the perfect corporate unisex restroom/lounge, whereby folks can retain their dignity. I must say..I've really overdone myself and broken all barriers.. I can tell you this is really fancy with modern tables and chairs doubling as toilets surrounded by high partitions and a security guard.

When I take a shit.

I personally don't want no kinda guy in there.

Queer or not a girl likes to do her shitting
in comfort and private.

That's just me though

Me, I don't care.

And in my experience men don't care. In fact, men don't really look at each other going to the bathroom, so when I am in a hurry I use the Men's room and I look nothing like a man.

Some Women have a fit though. I soooooo sosososososo want Cynthia to go to the Women's room with me, so I can tell someone off.. I am eat up with excitement over it...but she insists on just using the men's room.

UGH.

:giggle: i love your candor!

This is why i personally think all bathrooms should be a one stall, one person at a time, locking door room!

I prefer this too!

Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.

There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.

I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.

The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?

We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?

I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!

I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.

When boi and I are out and about, I go with. I can't say I notice anyone giving hym looks but then again I walk ahead of hym and engage hym in conversation (hy may look masculine but hy doesn't sound it) while we walk in. When we're coming home from Jersey hy's often still in uniform so no one really takes a second look.

I guess the way I see it is there is nothing keeping a man out of the women's restroom if he was determined to come in, not really. I assume when I see someone resembling a female appearance that they have every right to be in the restroom, and frankly, I don't care. As long as you're not trying to share my stall with me, go for it!

:praying:

i make the person i am married to go to the garage.
so i can use the facilities.

yanno?

somethings i need to do alone.

my utopia are those "family" bathrooms.

one room, door locks, and nobody is listening to how you you pee. or worse....

ETA: Apologies, I didn't realize the thread category I was in, my .02 doesn't quite apply now :)

don't you find your voice as SOFFA has a place here?

I am stting in hospital right now so I am not getting too deep.

They ways I have had my personal safefty compromised by doing my human shield act are pretty awful.

it's a big issue. :)

When you put it that way, you have a point, I just didn't want to derail or offend being in the 'wrong' thread as my partner is butch-id'd, that's all.

~ desd, aka soothesayer/peacekeeper