Male ID butch vs. FTM??
 

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

I don't want to take T but I do want to have top surgery. As far as male IDbutch goes, I guess my behavior and energy fits into what the world's social construct calls male and I myself feel more male. I love this website, it's nice to find men and women with the same mindset. Cheers!

A male identified butch presents themselves as male. An FTM is male.

I am confused by this statement. If someone tells me they are male, I consider them male and it doesn't have anything to do with them having surgery or taking T.

No. I had a beautifully perfect female body that represented ITSELF as female. Inside, since the get go, I participated in male activities, and sexually, I ID as male. All my life I've wanted to transition, yet, I did'nt want to mess up my female body in any way.

I am not sure that I am qualifyed to explain this. I identify as a boi. I don't necessarly identify as a male id butch. I am not in transition. I feel like there is a third sex for bois like me. It doesn't seem to require if you male identify or not. I was wondering if anyone else feels this way?

You bring up a very important point, Bulldog—not all FTMs have surgery and/or take testosterone.

I have a few questions for you popcorninthesofa:

What do you mean when you say your female body represented itself as female?
What are male activities?
How are you using the word, "sexually," and what does it mean to sexually identify as male?

Thanks.

This, really, is an unanswerable question. Really, truly, it is near impossible to define an ID since IDs are so SO super-personal and if you took 50 people who considered themselves "Male ID Butch" they would have 50 different definitions of what that means to them and 50 different ways of presenting their gender.

I disagree. I identify as a male id'd stone butch and as far as I am concerned I am male. Since I was a small child I couldn't think of myself as anything but. I am not just masculine, not just male presenting, but male. Part of the reason I identify as a male id'd stone instead of FtM is that FtM or trans anything has always, to me, implied going from female to male. Some have expressed that male id'd butches just don't want to get top surgery, go on T etc., but I don't think that's what defines a male id'd butch. For me when I do get top surgery, f.ex., I don't feel that I'll be taking a greater step toward transitioning to male because I already perceive myself as male. I've always been there mentally (not saying transguys haven't either, just trying to explain how my own mind processes my own characteristics), and I've spent the better part of my life sculpting my body physically to try to match where I am mentally as best I can.

So then why do I still insist on the stone butch part? Honestly, it's what I've comfortably grown into, was an important part of how I began to better understand myself and I don't see it as detracting from my "maleness" (or whatever you want to call it) in the least. It's perhaps more a descriptor of my own boundaries, and yet those boundaries, for lack of a better word, exist for me because I am male; yet a male who's physical body does not entirely match his mind.

Considering the differences of opinion here, I think what defines a male id'd butch varies from individual to individual. For me it's no different than simply being male.

I think I feel a lot like you do, I do not Id as a boi, but then I try to avoid gender labels/ids where ever possible. I dont feel like the body I was born with reflects my gender, but I dont feel like transitioning from one gender to the other is what fits me either. I very much feel in the middle, I like the middle. I ID with Trans people because thats where ive found acceptance of my gender stuff, not because my end goal is to "switch genders".

The way I explained my desire to change my physical appearance ... hair cut, binding, clothing choices etc.. to my (very supportive) partner was this:
"Its not about trying to be something Im not, its just that I have to put a LOT of thought into my gender, other people should at least have to do a double take before they make an assumption."

Thank you all for your great responses. I think Im learning a lot here. Basically Male ID Butch is another gender label, and as we all know each person defines their own gender label in a very personal and individual way? Right?

So heres what ive heard (read?) :

Male ID Butches are generally men or male ID folks who choose not to alter their bodies with T or surgery but some Male ID Butches still see their physical body as female.
FtM Trans folks are men who did not start out with a male body and may or may not use T or surgery to change their body.

So do any Male ID Butches take T and have surgery, or does the T and surgery mean that you are FtM (I know that you dont HAVE to have T and surgery to be FtM, but im wondering if it works the other way around...everyone who takes T and has surgery is an FtM, rather than other labels like Male ID Butch)??

Forgive my ignorance on the subject...

Thanks
Lee

Lee, again, welcome to the site. The questions you are asking have been discussed many times here and on the other site. Please do not think I am saying your questions are redundant, they are not. I like the straight forward way you ask the question.

I cannot give you a big long answer that includes the "whys" right now because I am due at a meeting.

I am a masculine identified butch/ Transmasculine Butch and I have had surgery and I have been taking T for two years. I also use the label Transman at times.

Gotta go.

Back. Lee there is no right way or wrong way to label your gender identity. That is entirely your decision. Many of us here came to our own personal gender identity through somewhat of an evolutionary process.

Let me step back and speak from the "I" perspective. For most of my adult life, I consciously identified as a Butch. In my thinking that put me in a sort of 3rd gender realm.

Now, for the past 20 years give or take a few years, it has become very possible for female bodied people to "transition."

For me, this "transition" is taking years and my transition is not restricted to hormones and surgeries. There is also the psychological, spiritual, and legal aspect to all of this, for me.

I identify as a "Transmasculine" Butch in part because I do not believe masculinity must be, can only be expressed as a male. "Masculinity" is present in both sexes and and all along the gender spectrum.

Legally, I am now a male but in many ways I am still working on what that looks like for me. For me I do not believe I am the same as a cisgendered man. Not all of the Butches, FTMs, bois believe the same as I do. And that is okay.

Finally, I have seen a few of us here change our ideas, and opinions about "gender" as we continue to discuss things here and live our lives in the world.

Good luck to you.

Ditto.....

Thank you for speaking up and stating what is true for you. I sincerely mean this. I would like to hear more of what you have to say. I am aware that "transitioning" may have similarities for many but there too are many varied experiences and identities.

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.

see this is where is get irrationally annoyed and confused. it's totally my own issue.

But growing up with biology and anthropology being spoon fed at an early age, it's

masculine/feminine = characteristics
man/woman = (two of many) genders
male/female = (two of *many*) sexes

so when people say "male ID'd butch", I go "huh?? but Male is a sex, not a gender. I don't understand what you are saying. If you said you were transsexual, rather than transgender, I'd get it. It's why there are male horses, not man horses."

So it's a massive stumbling block I can't seem to get past in comprehending. I went away from the web for six-8 months and came back and everyone was using it, where as before, they called themselves TG butches. Which I understood.

It's not really anyone else's problem, granted, it seems to be only me that doesn't understand. I have tried. People have tried explaining. But I keep ramming up against "but... but... that's transgender... not transsexual..."

And it's not my place to tell people who they are. But the word means something entirely different to me and sometimes it rubs me the wrong way :confused:

Not in any majour way, mind you. I think it's just something my brain won't switch on. TG butch = what some other people call male ID'd butch. It's a Dictionary problem I can't seem to change. I still see them as who they are, mind you.

I suppose it's like inki and I arguing "that's green" "no it's turquoise"
this can go on for hours. she means pale green with a smidgen of blue in it (thus green) I see turquoise. To her, Turquoise has more blue in it. I'm also suspecting since people see colours differently, that perhaps I see more blue in things than she does.

we are saying practically the same thing but our perceptual semantics get in the way.

what if a person is transgender but disputes the term FTM?
because to this person they were never female, always male...
so transitioning away from something they never were to something
they've always been seems to be a sticking point

I get and respect what you are saying. However, even with transitioning can one become "biologically" male? Following that logic could put transmen in great peril with a false safety net maybe? Because if one is "biologically" male then they wouldn't need to make sure to get pap smears and mammograms would they? Which saves lives.

I think at the end of the day, people have their own personal truths, and those truths may not align with with the next guys....

I am not trying to argue, I am just taking into account some things I've discussed with transguys at our local meetings...because it is super important to me to actively listen to other humans truths.

thanks for yours. (f)

Although there are many FTMs who have had both top surgery and the full removal of all reproductive organs and so yearly mammograms and pap smears are no longer needed.

But to the larger point, I think we are getting into the territory of what constitutes male and female. Texas has followed this logic to its end point and recognizes no form of transition whatsover. Texas states that you are what you are born as. A very rigid way of thinking. When we try to put everything back into the box, so to speak, we end up with Texas' law. They take it to the chromosome level. Their argument is that chromosomes can't be changed and therefore "biology" = chromosomes. So none of us can ever be "biologically" male under this definition. Texas being Texas they also throw "God" in there somewhere, too.

Rufus

I've read the thread here with great interest and intrigue and wonder about
the labels we are trying to a fix to one another...while I understand that labels
do have a place in life (labels and definitions bring understanding and through
understanding it can lead towards a path of acceptance), how a person identifies is going to be defined by their personal experiences and their own individual responses to those experiences.

For me personally...before I came out (almost seems like a whole other life I lead before this one), I was straight, married and had a kid. I wouldn't change that experience for any reason because of the child I have now.
Parts of me will forever be female and I am ok with that.

I don't identify as butch...more of a boi. I don't identify as male, don't wish to be a man, although I am predominantly masculine. I've considered top surgery not because I want to be manly but more because I don't associate with that part of my female anatomy. It would be the only thing I would want
to change (as a child when my breasts started to grow I was markedly upset...you can't catch footballs quite the same way ever again...on the flip side...I have great hands now :P ).

So I think the gender identity is evolving...particularly due to boards like this
and open discussions...I know I don't fit into the female...I don't fit into
the male either....I am just simply....me.

I understand. Thank you for talking w/me about it. :)

it's not personal :|. more than just you uses male = gender instead of sex. it's like how some people get irrationally annoyed from the misuse of punctuation. Like I said, it's my problem.

ETA: I'm not saying sexual transitioning isn't "real" - as far as I'm concerned it's "real" before it occurs anyway. my only stumbling block is pedantic: male is sex, man is gender. It's why I can have multiple gender (woman, femme, gender neutral) that I inhabit in my female (sex) body.

sexual transitioning, is not gender transitioning in my brain. I know that sounds weird. But someone who sexually transition is a man turning into a male. if that makes sense. Or like some of my friends a _____ (however they classify their gender) gender transitioning to male.

Perhaps my brain works differently.

that said I do know transgender and transsexual individuals. to be more confusing.

I am by NO MEANS speaking for anyone. I am only talking about why the confusion between sex and gender drives me a bit bonkers and I get very confused as to how people use them.

Ditto................