Islam & the Muslim faith- banishing myths
 

Like so many things for me, I find that I learn by others and what they can show me with ideas and resources. I am deeply concerned about what is going on in the US (the world?) about Islam and what it means to be Muslim.

Of course I have problems with how women are treated within this realm. Yet, I see many working to deal with these issues. I know that even as a person that has a spiritual life, I do have difficulty with any kind of blind faith. I also know that I have much to learn about both Islam and the Muslim faith even if I fall on the liberal, more progrssive side of things politically.

This isn't an area I feel I know very much about. With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.

my daughter dated someone who was Muslim. She read up on the religion and asked me to do the same. Like most religions, there are things I liked and things I didnt. I too would love to know more about it. I try very hard not to hold the entire faith of one religion agains the zealots of it. Including and especially Christianity.

Thanks for starting this, ALH

Where should I start ?
Islam, is, like Judaism and Christianity, based on the patriarchy of Abraham, accepts the Old Testament, and the New with the exception that Islam doesn't believe Jesus ( or anyone) is other than human. They accept Jesus as a prophet , and consider the word of God further explained by Muhammad, the next Prophet.
I know a lot more but perhaps that's the simplest part , that so many people don't seem to understand. Islam is as much a Monotheistic Faith, part of the same heritage as Judaism and Christianity.
Its a lineage, with in the same way that Christianity parts with Judaism, Islam parts with Christianity, and so it goes.
I know a lot more so ask a question :)
Having been brought up an Atheist, my interest in Religion, has been the same across the board.
So, perhaps I have spoken to a myth ? That Islam is some "wierd" Mystic thing, very different from Judaic-Christianity. It is not. It is part of teh same Mono Theistic lineage

like Merrick said..........

Judaism, Christianity, Islam............same God.....same basic mythology..........Islam accepts all the prophets (they see Jesus as a prophet....a human being only) of the previous 2 religions based on the single God of Abraham. Funny thing.......Judaism and Christianity don't accept the prophet Muhammad.

......and the ancient tribal wars continue today under the same God of Abraham........based on the idea of my God is really the right God of the 3 religions of the patriarchy.......

what year is it???

Hi,
I don't have a Degree in Islamic Studies *yet*, but I was raised muslim, Salaf..
I won't pretend to know it all or be the voice of authority, since my mother happily snuck behind my fathers back continuously so I could have a wealth of knowledge in other Religions/Covens so I could make a decision {if any} later in Life...
Any mistakes I make, I will correct if I can.

That being said,
Practicing Muslims everywhere are observing Ramadan at Press time of this Reply, it will Continue until September 8th.
Considering the Islamic Calendar is Lunar, the dates of different "Holidays" {there's not many} tend to rotate, I loved when it all landed in December..
It's easier to Fast/pray in cool weather {shorter days too}...
During the Last Week of Ramadan, devout Muslims will actually Camp out in their Respective Mosques..
There's food to break fast at sunset, I used to eat Figs , Dates and Milk dabbed with Honey to break Fasting.
All Muslims involved pray until the wee hours before Dawn, in hopes of Lailat ul-Kadr..The specific night The Prophet Mohammed {p.b.u.h} received the First verses of the Qu'ran, al-Fatiha,

Quote:

Qu'ran 97 verses 1-5 In the Name of Allah, the Benevolent, the Merciful. 1 Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination. 2 Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is! 3 The Night of Power has more blessings than a thousand months. 4 The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees. 5 (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.

Women are, of course, encouraged to stay home, but it is not expressly forbidden for them to spend this time at the Mosque,
The reason for this is, if she's a Mother, her children will need tending {some hire babysitters} so, rather than have the burden of worrying over the children instead of praying, they're "excused", they do pray, and it's well known, you do not need a Mosque to pray..
The only time it's expressly forbidden for a woman to attend is if she's having her period.
Can't touch the Qu'ran either.
Can't have sex even after sunset until she's "done".
Mind you, there are Feminist Muslims, and even they can see the logic for the most part.
Some will ....and I've witnessed this...take their kids with them, to participate.
Even with a daycare, it was slightly distracting, and that is upsetting to some, because they must concentrate on Prayer and Services.
Some Mosques allow 'mingling', others don't...For the same reason Orthodox Jews don't allow women in specific parts of the synagogue {and the Western Wall}.
Personally, I will choose a segregated congregation.
The purpose of the segregation, again...Modesty , for Both..
Not simply because they're Misogynistic Patriarchal piggies....
In fact, if a gentleman accidentally wanders into the womens area {or a teenage boy is dared}, if the ladies are high strung about modesty {and they usually are}, it'll resemble a chicken coop with a Fox inside...
Best comparison I can come up with.

I do approve the construction of the Mosque near Ground Zero {I know, different thread}, it's a slap in the face to all Extremist/Fanatic/Delusional who want to preach Intolerance, Hatred towards the "Devil Amrikans" and claim the U.S. is anti-Islam...
I was actually stunned when I visited Memphis, Tenn. that there was a Madrassah {Islamic School}...

The Prophet Mohammed{p.b.u.h}, is Universally considered {within Islam anyways} as The Seal of the Prophets..
Many muslims will point out, Muslims do not worship the Prophet, but rather accord him with all the Due respect of a Prophet of G-d.
Muslims also believe that Islam is Not new not by a long shot, it was merely...rekindled.
The Bible, Torah/Talmud are also to be respected..
After all, same G-d, same Message {mostly}, different Language...

G-d Almighty = English, Hashem =Judaic, Allah = arabic
Some might dispute this, but if you find an unbiased Arabic Studies/Religious Studies Professor, unless they're atheist and have a chip on their shoulder, oftentimes they'll say the same.

What Laerkin said is true...
Whether you believe it or not, Feminism took place within Islam well before the suffragist movement, that a woman is Niqabi, because of supposed family pressures?
In some case, yes..Particularly in Countries where they were forced into it {Afghanistan}..
Elsewhere, quite a few actually Choose to wear Veils, I've witnessed fights because the parents were Hanafi, and the daughters ascribed to Hanbali..
Honestly, if a Nun/Monk can wear veils, and at some Convents live Cloistered, why not a Muslim?...
The Prophet eliminated infanticide of girls..
Hygienic speaking, yeah Muslims had the upper hand based on wash ritual...
Before every prayer, especially the primary 5 {yes there's more}, hands, face, mouth & feet must be washed..
After sex, birth and Menses, a shower is mandatory {preferably Alone, or it defeats the purpose} Like a Mikvah..
you don't step into a mosque if u haven't {Muslims anyways}.
A proper sign of respect to the Mosque visited, women wear a loose veil {if you're non muslim}, gentleman respect the womens area and stay out, please take off shoes.Trust me, the carpets are Cleam {unless u are visiting a Poor towns Mosque, and even then, they'll take care of the mosque before anything else.

Another "popular" issue would be Polygamy...
Yes, it's permitted, but with such astonishingly tight guidelines, nowadays, it's not worth the headache, unless you're flithy rich and can provide EQUALLY in Every way to all your wives..
If you can't, u better stay with 1, work from there.

As much as I might piss off a few Jewish friends {I don't mean to}
As a kid, I used to marvel at so many similarities orthodox Islam + orthodox Judaism have...
When I was told of the conflict between Ibrahim's wife and servant, I was mesmerized and pointed out
"So, they're technically brothers?....
Youth -shrug-

Quote:

"In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:2)

Quote:

The Prophet said: "God has forbidden for you to be undutiful to your mothers." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

Quote:

"And revere the wombs that bore you, for God is ever watchful over you." (Qu'ran 4:1)

Quote:

A man once asked the Prophet to whom he should show the most kindness. The Prophet replied: "Your mother, next your mother, next your mother, and then your father." (Sunan of Abu-Dawood)

:candle::mohawk::praying:

Thank you so much for this. I was hoping that Muslim members would bring enlightenment from personal learning and perspectives. I especially like what you and Laerkin talk about concerning women- really helps to understand some of the cultural aspects and even the political. So much certainly fits with a lot of what I experienced with a catholic upbrining, actually. and I doubt that anyone can not see the very patriarchal and negative treatment of women in Chritianity and Judism historically. Makes me think of people in glass houses... . Seems to always be the case. obviously, as in these faiths, feminism has found a way to reach out within Muslim thought. There are so many different followings in major religions that are formed.

Do you have any idea if school public curriculums are gaining good information about the Muslim faith to teach students? This just seems to be a very important time for this to happen. In retirement, and with a grown child, I am not as informed about this. I do know from my son that his daughters have received very little information at school (one in middle school, the other in high school) about the Muslim faith even though comparative religion courses are offered.

Yup, zealots of any kind usually put a whole lot of garbage out there! What Laerkin brings about the development of factions today with the subjegation of women is very interesting.

Toughy's info on the non acceptance of Muhammed by Christianity actually slipped my mind. This is an important distinction to think about when I see those zealots on TV bashing the Muslim faith!

This is what is being taught in conservative christian theological seminarys that is causing derision among Christians and Moslems:

Jesus- Died and rose from the dead.
Muhammad- Dies and stays dead.
Jesus-Never fought.
Muhammad- Fought many many times.
Jesus- When Jesus heard from God he went to the desert to be tempted and began his ministry with boldness (Mark 1:14-15}
Muhammed- Was uncertain and wanted to commit suicide (Quran 74:1-5)
Jesus- Claimed ti be God as well as man
Muhammed- Claimed to be a man.
Jesus- Instructions received from God the Father.
Muhammed- From an angel.
Jesus- Never killed anyone.
Muhammed- Killed many.
Jesus- Had the power to take life, but never did. He restored it.
Muhammed- Had the power to take it, but never restored it.
Jesus-Never married.
Muhammad- Had over 20 wives including a 9 year old girl.
Jesus- Spoke well of womwn.
Muhammad-Said women were one half as smart as men(Hadith3:826;2:541) That the majority in hell would be women (Had 1:28,301, 2:161;7:124) That women could be mortgaged .

Just a note about having more than 1 wife.
At the time Muhammad lived, women were worth less than Camels. Seriously.
The whole notion, that if one had sex with a woman, you had to marry her.. first..which meant you had to provide for her, was very radical. Like it or not, that was actually a very good thing for women, at the time. They had no rights, and no worth, and were considered less than Camels. Insisting that men had to marry them ie provide for them, was very uplifting, at that time..

Efforts at understanding are important. De-mystifying and un-demonizing is crucial.

That said - I do NOT grant Islam, or any religion, a pass when it comes to patriarchal, oppressive beliefs about girls and women. I do not abide by any religion's conviction of their supremacy or "chosen-ness." I do NOT accept cultural relativism when it comes to abuse or violence-in-the-name-of.

Most of all, I hate the hypocrisy of traditional organized religions, including Islam.

Islam is no worse, and no better, than any global, organized religion, but it does currently gets "othered," in ways that are clearly the result of fear, ignorance, racism and bias.

Like other religions, there exists in Islam a continuum from secular to reform to moderate to conservative to fundamentalist. We are living in times when ALL kinds of fundamentalism is on the rise, coupled with an ever-shrinking globe, the proliferation of weaponry, and information and mis-information that travels at lightening speed. It is a time of extremes and extremism. That, not religious beliefs and not Islam, is the danger.

Heart

Yes, the one most significant reason I cannot be a part of organized religion is this very thing.... all (including what I grew up with) of the major religions of the world have this patriarchal oppression of women and girls within their ideological foundations.

My main interest here is about current US demonizing of Islam and the Muslim faith. As with most things, I do gai9n some hope when seeing what you describe as more secular to reform to or even moderate movements within major religions. Yet, I don't know that the patriarchal foundations of any of them will ever be shattered.

Throughout my life I have had a difficult time with being able to find a spiritual path that I could integrate into my life as a balancing influence and for me this is just important. The hypocrisy factor has always been the major stumbling block- I even felt this way as a young kid. I also did have mother that was not afraid to voice her inability to accept much of the Catholic doctrine that she was reared within even as a woman born in 1917 to a very devout Latin background. At age 7, I remember her marching up to a nun that had scared the shit out of me about mortal sin saying, children do not sin! She took me out of the school afterwards and just gave me her side of Catholicism as she utilized it for herself. Thank you, Momma! I know she met with a lot of wrath my grandparents over this. Although, her own mother became Pagan in later years. And what is interesting is that I believe she was a very faith-based woman in some ways. That base was one of questioning and only applying what she could follow as a human being.

It is possible to find a spiritual, or even what I believe to be faith outside of patriarchy, but a struggle. And one not everyone even wants to be part of.

No, I would not be any more inclined to become Muslim than Christian again, or Jewish, but, I do see the current hate about Islam to be very destructive.

Oh and cultural-relativism! My days in child protective services with Southeast Asian populations certainly put me at odds with it in many ways. And I have a very strong sense of ethnic culture personally. Then there was a bout with working with child sexual abuse and having perps cite various religious doctrines to deny their actions as being wrong!

Rook...I am so glad you joined in and told us your personal experience. I love your momma too! LOL.

I am learning so much, and am glad not to walk around with an empty spot where knowledge should be.

thanks to everyone for posting!

I am wondering about a couple of things...

One, what is the breakdown (if known) in the US in terms of more reformist or I guess moderate Muslims?

Also, it was mentioned that there are "feminist" Muslim mosques with followers. I am interested in the really how feminist this is - are they based upon an integration of any particular feminist theoretical base? And is there movement toward women taking position as holy people in the same way men are? Or, is this more about women having a place to pray without any re-interpretation of Muslim doctrine?

The other thing that is on my mind is the continuation of media coverage of the proposed community center and prayer room in NYC. My understanding that this is not really a mosque, yet today on "Meet the Press," discussion of this still being called the "Ground Zero Mosque" was the same. This was after several political programs throughout last week with Muslim guests pointed out that is a community center.

Lastly, I am wondering about US Muslims thoughts about the fact that after such statements from the likes of Newt Ginrich comparing this to "placing a swastika next to the Holocaust museum" have not brought outrage. One analyst on Zmeet the Press tonday brought this up in terms of how a statement like that pointed at any other minority would cause quite a stir and not just by those within the minority group. I think she is right. POC as well as whites had a hell of a lot to say about Dr. Laura's little rant last week!

Good Morning..

Softness,
I'll pass the sentiment on to her :eyebat:

AtLast,
I'll try to tackle this from different angles..
I can't really say much in the "holy" area, because technically, there Really shouldn't be any "holy" people, that is why the Prophet is called "The Seal of Prophets", it means 'That's it, no more, this is the last of 'em"...
There are, of course, women that have important Status, alongside men in Islamic history.
To name a few, Maryam [mary, jesus mother], Khadījah bint Khuwaylid, Aisha bint Abu Bakr [Aisha is shrouded in controversy, and many anti-Islamic rhetoric thoroughly enjoy pointing grossly uneducated fingers at her story]
That Shi'ite sects place certain men on a pedestal of holiness, is irrelevant {not to mention Bid‘ah & borderline idolatry}
As for the Feminist Mosques, I'm not sure those exist.
Feminist Muslims, however, different story.
To my understanding, Feminism is about granting women Equal rights, and choice..
A muslim that is Feminist will demand her right to refuse marriage, to Inherit her parents estate, whether to have kids or not, able to Work as long as her children are taken care of {If she works, her income is hers to with as she pleases, the Bills are usually paid for by the Spouse, unless mutually agreed prior to working that she'll Help}, her right to Study on a Collegiate level.
And yes, her right to attend Khutbah on Fridays.

As for Newt's idiotic comment, there's always bound to be some asshat with an opnion in this country, that's why 1st ammendment exists.
However, what's good for the goose, is good for the Gander, soooo...I hope he can take the Heat.
Besides, the Swastika, if memory serves, was meant to be a religious Symbol to this day in Hinduism, Jainism & Buddhism, before the Nazi's had a collective brainfart and used it.

I'm out of time for more, hopefully this helps a little..

:praying:

I took some classes in Islamic Philosophy, and some classes in Arabic ;) I had a couple teachers, but the primary one was a Coptic Christian, so bear in mind, that was his background.
Here's what I learned about the two main branches, within Islam...
An important part of the development of Islam, was that Mohammad, brought together, a country that was made up of nomadic tribes, that pretty much just scratched out food etc, and fought with one another. Islam or the Prophet, united them, into more common cause. Created more basic cohesive law ( like the you don't get to just rape a woman ..side note, I suspect the notion of rape didn't even exist, as woman didn't have rights of refusal ,...anyway , you have to provide care, as in economic care.. ) . I was taught, Mohammad may have married many woman, remember what Marriage was for here.. but his actual love and partner was a woman much older than himself.
He also had several men, that worked with him, to unite the country, and spread the faith. He directed them, that after his death, he wanted a specific person, to take his place, one of his Generals. The split within Islam, came after his death, with the people who insisted the person most fit, should be in charge ..and on the other hand, those that insisted it must be a Blood Relative ( I believe I recall he had no direct descendants, but I could be wrong ) . My Professor made a point of how different that was..the idea of the best person for the job, vs the blood relative ( very common everywhere and most disastrous also ! ) characterized the two different groups. The practical side, is the Sunni Muslims, and the more traditionally ( and I would argue more likely to religious zealotry ) are the Shi'ite.
The Imam, of the COmmunity Center erroneously dubbed the "Mosque at Ground Zero" is actually a Sufi, yet another very small, very spiritual, very progressive branch of Islam. He has a long history, of both friendship and standing up for Jewish Groups , and placing his own life on the lone, with the radical groups. That he is being vilified by people, and in particular some politicians, is just disgusting ...

Folks may learn more about Sufi Moslems by googling this highly esteemed Sufi mystic: Hazrat Inayat Khan.

Yes! Helps! Yes about the swastika, too. Oh, how twisted things become..... which is what I see right now in the US concerning Islam and Muslims.


Thanks!

On PBS, right now, east coast , they're giving a documentary called "Veiled Voices" discussing how 3 different modern muslim women make a Difference in Islam & the World.
It's worth a gander if you still have some nagging questions related.

That was an excellent post, Rook. Thank you. I am Jewish, but have worked and visited extensively in the middle east, particularly Palestine, Egypt and Jordan.
Agree that the differences between orthodox Judaism and Islam are slight. Jews do not accept Jesus as a prophet and messiah, as Muslims do and tend to disregard the Prophet Muhammed entirely. What a shame. Actually, Muhammed historically had as much or more to to with the course of history than did Jesus. A fascinating personality to study and certainly a most misunderstood man today.
You're correct that your wudu is our mikvah. Today our dovening is very likely a remnant of the original common prayer and certainly we hold to the same inherent laws of G/d.
You've shared correct information and I'm sure that others appreciate your willingness to talk about faith at a time when Islamophobia is rampant. I can remember when it was difficult to be Jewish in our culture and have no tolerance whatsoever for any form of racism -- matters not who is the object of blatant hatred.
Perhaps it is imperative that gay people and their allies keep in mind that when one innocent group is being persecuted, we are sure to be next in line.
I, personally, find Sufism utterly fascinating as a meditation practice and hold it in the highest regard, along with buddhism and the mystical arms of other conventional faiths.
Thanks again for your post, Rook and Ramadan Mubarak
Assalamu alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

I didn't know where else to post this, so I'm gonna go ahead and put it here.

1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World

With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.[/QUOTE]

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it sufficient to say that there is no faith in the history of mankind of this planet as replete with atrocity and horror as what has been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ? Nothing even comes in as a close second.

Here is a tidbit unknown to most people. Islam was known to the indigenous Americans long before Columbus and his crew even considered setting sail. Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed. Names such as Tallahassee (FL) are straight out of the Arabic. The first European ships sailing into the West Indies glided past mosques.

I don't like to offer links, but suggest anyone who wishes to do so try a Google search simply using the words: Native American and Islam or Muslim.

Looking at native religion as it evolved, glimpses of Islam are very apparent. Particularly clear is the Native American's great respect for life and the land. Hope this is on interest to somebody.

Well, we got the First Americans when we arrived and murdered most of them. Guess we're going to get them again on a second round.

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.[/QUOTE]

Agree, Isadora, the Bahia faith is a lovely one. Do you know what their stance is on homosexuals? Just curious.

Sorry, I have to withdraw my positive comment on the Bahai faith unless someone can correct. I can't speak for the authenticity of the site from which this is quoted below:

"Homosexuality according to the writings of Baha'u'llah is spiritually condemned," Shoghi Effendi, the second and final interpreter of Baha'i teaching.

"...the Faith does not recognize homosexuality as a 'natural' or permanent phenomenon. Rather. it sees this as an aberration subject to treatment," Universal House of Justice, 1987-MAR-22.

"LGBTI Let us live in Peace." Text of a mask worn during a protest in Kampala, Uganda, seeking and end to persecution of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transexuals, transgendered and intersex persons. Local Baha'i, Christian and Muslim leaders urged the government to arrest the protestors.

Thanks for this link!

Thinking about how it is for someone in a Muslim country that is Christian. I have a neighbor/friend thsat is saudi and his family has always been Catholic. his children were not allowed to attend university (or receive free higher education) as Muslim children are. They were educated mostly in Egypt and the US.

Now, the entire family is here (took many years for him to be re-united with his wife and children- very long complex story) and of course, people in general in the US see assume this family is Muslim. He mamages a small store near me and has had quite a few threats. So have his kids (younger ones attending HS here).

What I feel is just plain anger at times about the kinds of nonsense ignorant people engage in. He and his family are saudi- THEY MUST BE MUSLIM! His family has been Christian (as I said) for generations.

_____________________
From Wikipedia: Accurate religious demographics are difficult to obtain in Saudi Arabia[1] but 85 to 90% of citizens of Saudi Arabia are Sunni Muslims, who predominantly subscribe to the Government-sanctioned interpretation of Islam, while 15 to 10% of citizens are Shi'a Muslims[1].

AtLastHome, I'm just playing devil's advocate, but..... Saudi is a theocracy. Islam is the official and only religion. That you came up with one actual Saudi Christian is astonishing. That this single Christian family remained in Saudi at all is even more phenomenal. There are lots of foreign workers in Saudi who are Christians and they aren't allowed to bring in bibles or conduct public church services. There is not one single church in the entire country. That's what ya get when there's an official state religion. I'm sure your Christian friend also had to pay a special gyzia tax and may not have been considered a citizen of saudi, but a "guest". I'd be curious to know.

Saudi is unique in this manner. Even Iran has enclaves of Christians and Jews who are treated well, although they are a small minority. I was surprised to learn that a sizable number of Israeli Jews from Iran have made "reverse" aliyah and gone back to Iran -- so it can't be all that bad for them.

We don't have to agree, but it's their country. As long as no non-Muslim is forced to remain in Saudi against their will, it's their business. No non Muslim is allowed to enter Mecca at all.

Not a lot different than the Vatican in some ways. How many Jews and Muslims live in Vatican City? Israel, of course, also comes to mind. A percentage of ethnic Christians are tolerated, but as second class citizens at best. Each to their own.

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I would love to see some references concerning Native Americans (NA) originating/descending from the people of eastern Mongolia and Manchuria. If memory serves this used to be taught, but now with mitochondrial DNA it's not true.

Of course Islam was known by the indigenous peoples of the Americas. Those 'heathen barbarian savages' from around the world knew how to sail and navigate the oceans.

Muhammad heard from Allah around 610CE and then started spreading the word. It's not surprising that NA knew of Islam before Columbus invaded the Americas

I'm not so sure about that. It's been a while but the last I read (2008 or so) was that the population that became the natives of both North and South America arrived here ~12,000 BCE quite a bit before Islam. I have even read estimates going back as far as 40 - 50,000 BCE although there does not appear to be a great deal of evidence in support of it.

ALL indigenous Western Hemisphere populations are more closely related to one another than ANY of those populations are related to Siberian or East Asian populations. This strongly suggests a rather distant genetic split.



Cheers
Aj

I find that highly improbable given that North American aboriginals crossed into modern day North America long before the creation of Judeo-Christian Islamic religions and long before the existence of Mongolia and the Mongolian invasions into eastern and central Europe, the Middle East and other Asiatic regions.

That said, yes they're related to other Eurasian/Asiatic groups populating northern Europe and northern and central Asia genetically, but that doesn't mean they have anything to do with the Mongols or had any contact with the Eurasian/Asiatic regions past the initial migration period.

And even if they had had contact with the Mongols of the European medieval period, that would have meant they would have been equally exposed to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and a number of other religions assimilated into the empire given that the Mongols (unlike other invaders) adopted some form of nearly every religion they came into contact with. That was one of the reasons the Mongols were so successful in their initial invasions, because instead of alienating or enslaving their conquered peoples, they would immediately assimilate them into their army and into their religious beliefs. This was arguably one of the causes of their demise as well.

So no, Aboriginal North/South Americans were not descended from the Mongols of the Mongolian Empire, nor did they have contact with Islam prior to colonisation as far as I've ever read.

Kept reading through the thread and I really don't understand where you're getting this information. You've not given any sources for your information, and I've never read any of the sort. It all seems very outlandish.

I took the liberty of looking up the etymology of Tallahassee and discovered that it means "tribal town" or "old town" in the Creek language, which has no relation to any Arab languages.

I don't pretend to be any kind of expert on North or South American Aboriginal spirituality, but I have done a decent amount of reading on Aboriginal shamanism and spirituality globally. I can't say I've ever read of anything suggesting that "Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed." That the first European ships glided past mosques in the West Indies is just beyond science fiction. Please provide a link to your info because I'm not sure I can suspend belief that far.

As for your info on Christian invasions of "Muslim lands" vs. Muslim invasions of "Christian lands"...again, seems to be the product of misinformation.

Some examples:

One of the first Christian vs. Muslim conflicts was the conquest of the Christian Iberian Peninsula (modern day Spain and Portugal) by the North African Umayyad dynasty; a Muslim dynasty. Muslims ruled over the Iberian Peninsula for the next 6-7 centuries until the "reconquista" that placed Christians back into power.

During that time Muslim forces repeatedly attempted to invade and conquer southern France, but were repeatedly pushed back by Christian Frankish forces and completely pulled out by the 10th century.

Greece: The Christian Byzantine (Greek) Empire stretched into Asia Minor/Anatolia until the recently Muslim Seljuk Turks began their invasions against the Byzantine Greeks. The Byzantine Emperor eventually appealed for help against Muslim Turkish invasions from western Christendom; the appeal that began the First Crusade. As I'm sure you know, what was once Christian Greek land is now modern day Turkey and probably the only remaining "Christian" lands still in "Muslim hands." The reason for this is likely due to Europe's history, which has resulted in a western world that tends to be more advanced in its military tactics and use of weaponry. Which does in no way detract any credit from the military tactics of other nations. The Mongolians and Seljuk Turks had absolutely amazing swarming cavalry tactics that I'm, personally, a huge fan of :D ...but at the end of the day (probably due to social circumstances rather than anything military) they did not manage to retain most of their conquered lands.

The truth is, Christian/Muslim hostility has had a long and complex history with precedence in a European/Middle Eastern conflict outdating Christianity in Europe and Islam in the Middle East.

I get the feeling that, with current global relations being what they are, many who oppose Arab oppression in western nations (and rightfully so, since I don't believe oppression should go unchecked) attempt to make it into a good vs. bad sort of deal. As though Muslims had no role in the initiation of the Crusades (which, in fact, their invasions into south-eastern Europe initiated) or any of the more recent conflicts. It turns into a Muslims/Arabs = Good, Christians/Westerners = Bad kind of equation that seems to sometimes lead to a weird kind of historical revisionism. The truth ain't so black and white and each side had a role to play in today's conflicts as well as those of the past.

So, does anyone else think that the Muslim investigative panels going on in the US Congress are "witch-hunt" material?