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-   -   the Femme Rules the Butch Rules (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1979)

Nerds 09-04-2010 02:06 PM
the Femme Rules the Butch Rules
 
ok so I have come across a set of rules of the Femmes out there but no rules for the Butches. So me and a friend were going to make a list of rules for the Butches - but we need some suggestions. To give you an idea - here is the list of Femme Rules:

The Femme Rules


1. The Femme always makes THE RULES.

2. THE RULES are subject to change without notice.

3. No butch can possibly know all THE RULES.

4. If the Femme suspects the Butch knows all THE RULES, she must immediately change some of THE RULES.

5. The Femme is never wrong.

6. If it appears the Femme is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding caused by something the Butch did or said.

7. If Rule 6 applies, the Butch must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.

8. The Femme can change her mind at any time without notice.

9. The Butch must never change her mind without the express written consent of The Femme.

10. The Femme has every right to be angry or upset at any time.

11. The Butch must remain calm at all times, unless the Femme wants her to be angry or upset.

12. The Femme must not, under any circumstances, let the Butch know whether she wants her to be angry or upset.

13. The Butch is expected to read the mind of the Femme at all times and act or respond accordingly.

14. What is important is what the Femme meant, not what she said.

15. If the Butch doesn't abide by THE RULES, it is because she can't take the heat, lacks backbone, and is a wimp.

16. If the Femme has PMS, all THE RULES are null and void and the Butch must cater to her every whim.

17. Any attempt to document THE RULES could result in bodily harm.

18. If the Butch, at any time, believes she is right, she must refer to Rule 5.

19. The Butch must kill all bugs at any given time.

20. The Butch must "always be prepared"...





we have 4 rules so far:

1. Make the Femme believe it is her idea

2. just grin and nod

3 if the Femme changes the rules - refer to rule number 2

4 no Butch likes to know all the rules we like the element of surprise



I am sure you all have some good suggestions... :)

Soon 09-04-2010 02:08 PM
Ruh Roh.

:seeingstars:

Corkey 09-04-2010 02:11 PM
Oh god here we go again.....

1. this is not funny
2. it has been posted before
3. it is just as offensive now as it was then
4. look out for the flame, it's gonna get hot in here.

Ryobi 09-04-2010 02:19 PM
Grab the "Gold Bond"! Here comes a hide chapping!! :seeingstars:

betenoire 09-04-2010 02:22 PM
Butch/Femme does not equal a parroting of heterosexuals. Butches are not our Men (except, you know, for the ones who are but that is besides the point)

This is sexist. It's also stupid. That's the only rule you need to know.

Jesse 09-04-2010 02:26 PM
I feel better about us as a community finding ways to encourage the togetherness and ways that we work well together rather than any of this blank-verses-blank stuff!

The_Lady_Snow 09-04-2010 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerds (Post 185764)
ok so I have come across a set of rules of the Femmes out there but no rules for the Butches. So me and a friend were going to make a list of rules for the Butches - but we need some suggestions. To give you an idea - here is the list of Femme Rules:


OY VEY Nerds.......

The Femme Rules


1. The Femme always makes THE RULES.

2. THE RULES are subject to change without notice.

3. No butch can possibly know all THE RULES.

4. If the Femme suspects the Butch knows all THE RULES, she must immediately change some of THE RULES.

5. The Femme is never wrong.

6. If it appears the Femme is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding caused by something the Butch did or said.

7. If Rule 6 applies, the Butch must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.

8. The Femme can change her mind at any time without notice.


So far you have insulted every femme in here by insinuating we are fluffless mindless controlling cunts.

9. The Butch must never change her mind without the express written consent of The Femme.

10. The Femme has every right to be angry or upset at any time.

11. The Butch must remain calm at all times, unless the Femme wants her to be angry or upset.

12. The Femme must not, under any circumstances, let the Butch know whether she wants her to be angry or upset.

13. The Butch is expected to read the mind of the Femme at all times and act or respond accordingly.

14. What is important is what the Femme meant, not what she said.

15. If the Butch doesn't abide by THE RULES, it is because she can't take the heat, lacks backbone, and is a wimp.

16. If the Femme has PMS, all THE RULES are null and void and the Butch must cater to her every whim.


So from this I have learned you see us femme's as angry, close to violent abusive beings.

AND we are the only one's who suffer from the PMS cause well butches just miraculously do not

17. Any attempt to document THE RULES could result in bodily harm.

18. If the Butch, at any time, believes she is right, she must refer to Rule 5.

19. The Butch must kill all bugs at any given time.

20. The Butch must "always be prepared"...

Here you assumed that all femme's are scared of bugs, always ready for sex and that we are violent.





we have 4 rules so far:

1. Make the Femme believe it is her idea

2. just grin and nod

3 if the Femme changes the rules - refer to rule number 2

4 no Butch likes to know all the rules we like the element of surprise

Here we learn that you view butches as head noddin' zombies


I am sure you all have some good suggestions... :)
So there is a thread on this site about Misogyny and Sexism in this community, my suggestion before someone bites your head off if you decide to post another ludicris thing like this happens is read it.


Here is the link for the thread I hope it helps:




http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...exism+Mysogyny

Medusa 09-04-2010 02:34 PM
Hey Nerds,

I know you meant this to be funny and posted it in the humor section. I think you will find many people aren't amused by humor like this that often takes "man" out of the joke and inserts "Butch" or "Transguy" because it often creates this ugly thing where the Butch/Femme dynamic is just a dressing sheet that is thrown over a hetero relationship.

It can feel negating to the actual lived experiences of many of us here and can also feel as if het relationships are being heralded as the "real" relationships while Queer relationships are just cheap knock-offs.

I think you are new to the community so I hope this explanation helps you understand why people are reacting with irritation. Also keep in mind, many "jokes" like this have been posted over the last 12 years.

Thanks!

EnderD_503 09-04-2010 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 185784)
Hey Nerds,

I know you meant this to be funny and posted it in the humor section. I think you will find many people aren't amused by humor like this that often takes "man" out of the joke and inserts "Butch" or "Transguy" because it often creates this ugly thing where the Butch/Femme dynamic is just a dressing sheet that is thrown over a hetero relationship.

It can feel negating to the actual lived experiences of many of us here and can also feel as if het relationships are being heralded as the "real" relationships while Queer relationships are just cheap knock-offs.

I think you are new to the community so I hope this explanation helps you understand why people are reacting with irritation. Also keep in mind, many "jokes" like this have been posted over the last 12 years.

Thanks!
Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?

The_Lady_Snow 09-04-2010 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderD_503 (Post 185790)
Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?

Um Nerd's post is am implication that Butch and Femme are a heteronormative carbon copy and we should be ok with someone making ha ha jokes about sexism towards femme's?

Cause that is what those jokes are sayin' and doing

Now I don't know about you but I do not like that kind of message shoved down my throat via comedy.

Medusa 09-04-2010 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderD_503 (Post 185790)
Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?

Actually, for me, I think that het relationships are "normalized" through the media and most of our political, religious, and social systems. I think that we can internally "know" that the paper dolls that the media and systems of power provide to us aren't fair and real but I do personally recognize the validity of the existence of "het norm".

It is important to me in this community that we do rail against "othering". My response above was an attempt to do that :)

EnderD_503 09-04-2010 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 185797)
Um Nerd's post is am implication that Butch and Femme are a heteronormative carbon copy and we should be ok with someone making ha ha jokes about sexism towards femme's?

Cause that is what those jokes are sayin' and doing

Now I don't know about you but I do not like that kind of message shoved down my throat via comedy.
That's not at all what I was saying in my post... I was actually attempting to expand on the notion of heteronormativity itself. Nevermind.

EnderD_503 09-04-2010 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 185798)
Actually, for me, I think that het relationships are "normalized" through the media and most of our political, religious, and social systems. I think that we can internally "know" that the paper dolls that the media and systems of power provide to us aren't fair and real but I do personally recognize the validity of the existence of "het norm".

It is important to me in this community that we do rail against "othering". My response above was an attempt to do that :)
I recognise that the media and religion, in particular, attempt to do this, however, what I'm saying is that I don't think that it is indicative of the situation as it is. At least not in my experience. Stuffing heterosexuals into one box simply because of what the media/religion tries to do just doesn't sit well with me. While there once was a heterosexual norm, I'm not convinced that this is the case today.

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.

Ebon 09-04-2010 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerds (Post 185764)
ok so I have come across a set of rules of the Femmes out there but no rules for the Butches. So me and a friend were going to make a list of rules for the Butches - but we need some suggestions. To give you an idea - here is the list of Femme Rules:

The Femme Rules


1. The Femme always makes THE RULES.

2. THE RULES are subject to change without notice.

3. No butch can possibly know all THE RULES.

4. If the Femme suspects the Butch knows all THE RULES, she must immediately change some of THE RULES.

5. The Femme is never wrong.

6. If it appears the Femme is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding caused by something the Butch did or said.

7. If Rule 6 applies, the Butch must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.

8. The Femme can change her mind at any time without notice.

9. The Butch must never change her mind without the express written consent of The Femme.

10. The Femme has every right to be angry or upset at any time.

11. The Butch must remain calm at all times, unless the Femme wants her to be angry or upset.

12. The Femme must not, under any circumstances, let the Butch know whether she wants her to be angry or upset.

13. The Butch is expected to read the mind of the Femme at all times and act or respond accordingly.

14. What is important is what the Femme meant, not what she said.

15. If the Butch doesn't abide by THE RULES, it is because she can't take the heat, lacks backbone, and is a wimp.

16. If the Femme has PMS, all THE RULES are null and void and the Butch must cater to her every whim.

17. Any attempt to document THE RULES could result in bodily harm.

18. If the Butch, at any time, believes she is right, she must refer to Rule 5.

19. The Butch must kill all bugs at any given time.

20. The Butch must "always be prepared"...





we have 4 rules so far:

1. Make the Femme believe it is her idea

2. just grin and nod

3 if the Femme changes the rules - refer to rule number 2

4 no Butch likes to know all the rules we like the element of surprise



I am sure you all have some good suggestions... :)
I've said some shit in my day but you are a brave soul.

Gemme 09-04-2010 03:28 PM
I guess this means that masculine and male identified butches and Transguys are exempt, huh?
Just when I had my butch just where I wanted him, a loop hole....:blink:

BullDog 09-04-2010 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderD_503 (Post 185800)
I recognise that the media and religion, in particular, attempt to do this, however, what I'm saying is that I don't think that it is indicative of the situation as it is. At least not in my experience. Stuffing heterosexuals into one box simply because of what the media/religion tries to do just doesn't sit well with me. While there once was a heterosexual norm, I'm not convinced that this is the case today.

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.
Heteronormative standards exist on institutional and structural levels and are the basis used to value heterosexual relationships (the only type of relationships society really recognizes in any sort of "official" way). It also helps to reinforce sexism in many ways. Recognizing that we don't follow heteronormative standards in our community doesn't mean we think all heterosexuals are the same or that all heterosexuals follow heteronormativity to a tee or that they are all bad people.

Nerds, welcome to the site.

I don't agree with the humor either but the person registered in August 2010. Can we cut her some slack and still discuss the topic at the same time?

Corkey 09-04-2010 03:44 PM
So far I think we've all been rather subdued and accommodating in educating a new member... so what exactly is the topic now?

BullDog 09-04-2010 03:45 PM
I don't understand your question Corkey.

betenoire 09-04-2010 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderD_503 (Post 185800)
Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.
Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.

Corkey 09-04-2010 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 185820)
I don't understand your question Corkey.

Well first the topic was a joke that isn't and now you say there is a topic, I'd like to know just what the topic is please since you seem to know there is a topic. Now do you understand? ugh.

BullDog 09-04-2010 03:54 PM
No, I still don't understand, but I don't think you are asking me a question anyway so I really don't think it matters.

Corkey 09-04-2010 03:56 PM
OFFS, no Bully I wasn't asking you anything.... what is the topic please, cause I'd really like to participate if there is actually a point to this thread.

BullDog 09-04-2010 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 185821)
Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.
OK Corkey, perhaps I am a little slow on the uptake. I think there is good discussion around why these types of jokes aren't funny and people are already discussing that without getting into anything with the OP. As Betenoire's post above. I think there is plenty to discuss.

Corkey 09-04-2010 04:25 PM
It is offensive because it is sexist, it is misogynistic, it is dull and sophomoric. The OP is now informed by a whole lot of folks with out one flame as far as I can see. So what is there left to discuss, how we clip our toes? My attempt at humor, directed to no one in particular.

betenoire 09-04-2010 04:32 PM
I am probably a bit of a hypocrit, since I make jokes about me and Nick parroting "traditional" male/female roles.

Mind you, when I do it it drips with irony. When I joke about all the stuff that I have to ask Nick's permission to do - it's because he, zeus, the cats, and now all of you know that I never ask permission to do ANYTHING and even if I did it would be cursory because he'd never be able to stop me from doing anything I felt like doing - and he wouldn't try. (Possibly he wouldn't try because he knows it would be a waste of his time, however.)

(Another favourite joke of mine is the one about how now I'm gonna go do the dishes and make the apartment look nice for "my man". Please, it's fairly common knowledge that there are at least 4 loads of laundry overflowing the hamper and a zillion dvds strewn all over the couch at any given moment. Poor Nick.)

AtLast 09-04-2010 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 185821)
Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.
Rather obvious that both are obnoxious, infantile and sexist. What the hell is wrong with people?

AtLast 09-04-2010 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranzman (Post 185777)
I feel better about us as a community finding ways to encourage the togetherness and ways that we work well together rather than any of this blank-verses-blank stuff!
I agree and think the OP should do what I recerntly did when making the same "vs" mistake..... report themselves and ask that the the thread be closed. Did this even though other thread titles have "vs" in them because I felt the members offended (as is true here) deserve my listening to them due to a communiy consenses. And it is one thing if one or two people take offense without solid grounds and quite another when many do and have the same basis, with sound reasoning and the spirit of the site's TOS (sexism and a transphobic slant, really that gemme caught) for complaint.

If a thread is going to bring on negative stances and just offends a lot of members, it isn't additive to the site. Sometimes an idea just flops and has nothing do with any ill intent of the OP at all..

WolfyOne 09-04-2010 05:15 PM
Personally, I think if the thread was retitled, it could be a learning lesson for anyone new to this site or to the communities we all live in. I see plenty of posts here that are well written and worthy of reading whether you're new or not. I for one am always impressed with what I read by others and what I care to take with me when I leave a thread.

SuperFemme 09-04-2010 05:48 PM
I think the word of the week is VERSUS.

I'm glad tomorrow is Sunday.

Nerd? I love your name and welcome.

BullDog 09-04-2010 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 185891)
I think the word of the week is VERSUS.

I'm glad tomorrow is Sunday.

Nerd? I love your name and welcome.
LOL, yeah must be a world record for thread titles. I think in most instances it has meant to compare rather than to compete (as in us vs. them) and I have been puzzled by some of the responses. However comparisons can also be problematic at times.

Note to self: don't ever put vs in a thread title

SuperFemme 09-04-2010 06:06 PM
My very first post on a b/f site ages ago was me jumping into a poly thread saying that I "wasn't morally capable" of doing poly.

It has taken 8 years for my ass to grow back.

Bah.

You live, you learn. I just want to make sure that Nerd knows we really ARE a loving bunch (with an extremely high nerd population).

So Nerd, don't mind us. Your ass will grow back, and this place really is super special in tons of ways. :rrose:

waxnrope 09-04-2010 06:25 PM
Maybe, in addition to "educating" a new person to the site, we have learned how to approach ... not allowing the error to pass, but not being so volatile as to defeat our purpose by having the recipient of our collected angst just shut down.*shrugs* I don't know. Maybe the holiday weekend tempered...

I'll keep checking, tho, to see if I should send salve ....

Ryobi 09-04-2010 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfyOne (Post 185871)
Personally, I think if the thread was retitled, it could be a learning lesson for anyone new to this site or to the communities we all live in. I see plenty of posts here that are well written and worthy of reading whether you're new or not. I for one am always impressed with what I read by others and what I care to take with me when I leave a thread.
You being one of the "worthy of reading", retitling is a good idea. I agree we can all learn from threads like this. But, what would it be called? There's so many like it. I guess some one could start a thread "how not to get your ass ripped off". lol.

I agree also with being nice to new comers. When I read the first post, I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt, and I still do. I just can't help feeling though, the benefit of the doubt is a lot to still be asking for in this matter.
When I re-read the entire thread, the Monty Python skit "how not to be seen" ran through my head. lol. Poor Nerds merely stood up a bit from the shrubbery and it Blew up. lol

Nerds, welcome to the planet. We're not try to teach you "how not to be seen". I think it's more like hoping folks can see some things differently.

waxnrope 09-04-2010 07:22 PM
I like that, Ryobi. Thanks.
Maybe when newbies register, there should be a sign that tells them, "Newbies read this..... with an arrow pointing to a thread called by one of the names above. Or, Ass slings here ...?

Toughy 09-04-2010 07:39 PM
I actually find the thing sexist period. It is offensive to any and all female-bodied/woman folks. It is also offensive to men of all stripes.

It plays on stereotypical gender roles and frames any and all women as...........well Snow put it best.....something about controlling cunts. It makes men stupid and passive nitwits also.

I don't believe Nerd has come close to getting flamed. Nerd has not even received an ass bite, much less a chomping. We are becoming nice...........mmmmmmmmmmm

waxnrope 09-04-2010 07:45 PM
Is there a dentist in the house? :fastdraq:

SuperFemme 09-04-2010 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackhammer (Post 185943)
This is the second thread Ive removed the word VERSUS from tonight.
I'm on a roll. :police:
go jack
go jack

it's your vs. day
it's your vs. day

i'll be here every saturday in months that have 12 days

Ryobi 09-04-2010 08:06 PM
Can we just call it, "The Femme rules the Butch" and see how that thread goes?

:vigil: :fastdraq:

Julie 09-04-2010 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughy (Post 185936)
I actually find the thing sexist period. It is offensive to any and all female-bodied/woman folks. It is also offensive to men of all stripes.

It plays on stereotypical gender roles and frames any and all women as...........well Snow put it best.....something about controlling cunts. It makes men stupid and passive nitwits also.

I don't believe Nerd has come close to getting flamed. Nerd has not even received an ass bite, much less a chomping. We are becoming nice...........mmmmmmmmmmm
There is no question in my mind the OP in it's entirety was offensive and sexist, among other descriptives. However...

I am going to make the assumption that Nerd is either young or perhaps based on their geographic location (Netherlands) might not have been afforded the intellectual environment so many of us had in this community, by our community. Again, I might be insulting Nerd this very moment with my very assumptions.

Personally, after reading each and every post -- I am feeling more positive, in that this has turned into an open ground for communication. If we give ass whoopin's and beat down a person, who perhaps just doesn't get it, because they don't have the same experiences as us. We might turn somebody away, who might make a difference in our community one day. I have been out for 30 years in this community, but there was a time, when I was just plain young and stupid and thankfully... I had older femmes and butches to sit down with me and have open conversations, without feeling shamed.

Just remember this... If it were not for the strength of the butches and femmes before us, where might we be? We have a responsibility to our younger generations and those coming out, to guide and educate, so they in turn can help another. Otherwise, where will we be in a hundred years?

Julie


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