only another butch would understand
 

:cigar: Enjoys the calm; the peace,,and
burps freely without restraint............... :beerbros:

For the male identified butch
 

not sure which is worse, actually -- a femme or another butch doing that. when it happens it's like someone is trying to hurl the ultimate insult.

The best thing in the whole wide world is a Femme who does understand. :love1:

Although you stated your query was directed to the "male identified" of which I'm not... just a thought. Someone may try to emasculate a butch (either male or female ID etc. etc. etc.) but I don't believe they actually can do this without said butch allowing it.

In other words, no one can emasculate me... though they may try and it isn't pleasant I'd guess... but IMO it only reflects back on their own short comings.


Anyway good thread Dean Thoreau... though I'm not much of a burper. ;)

I get it totally. Its not so much the words, it's that it negates everything you thought she understood. It's a trust issue or as though she lied and never thought you as her butch. Otherwise why would she do that?

Well I don't burp much, am not male identified, and don't have a huge concern about anyone trying to emasculate me, but howdy to all the butches in the Butch Zone.

Right... it's a low blow and from one who should support you the most... pretty ugly. Unfortunately when peeps get pissed, some resort to the nasty stuff.

Live and learn I guess and hopefully so will they eventually...

Hey Bully!

Hey Metro, great to see you!

Likewise *thumbs up*

seriously...not again
 

Thanks for this, Metropolis. As a non-burping, female-identified butch, I have no concerns regarding my masculinity. I'd be thrilled to be acknowledged in the world for the different type of woman I am. And, no, no woman/partner/date has ever attacked me for that. Either I'm lucky, or I just have too much natural T to make that an issue. Regardless, I'm mostly disappointed that the first "butch" thread is already centered on male stereotypes as a marker of what butch is. That's just fucking sad.

Hello back, Bully. Thank you for your post as well.

Beau, who doesn't scratch in public either

no posturing zone
 

what Metro, Bully and Beau said.........

certainly I have been asked to 'tone it down a little'......laughin.......like I can.....however I didn't find it emasculating...not sure how you could emasculate me.....laughin.....

Ok to me the only way anyone is going to emascualte me is if I allow them to.
And easiest way to allow it is by letting them know saying stupid shit bothers me.

I just ignore the comments...cause I know the person making the comment is:
1. looking for a argument
2. wants to be a bitch
3. feeling wounded cause i did somethin stupid; or someone within a 2000 mile radius did and the person is desiring to boost their ego by saying stupid crap to me
4. an insensitive idiot that doesnt have a clue
5. ignorant
6. an asshole
7. all of the above

And bluntly none of the above have the power to shake my masculinity/butchness/ sense of self....and If i am dating/married/ involved with a person like that....I am the asshole.

at my age,,gas happens..be thankful it was a burp!

Anyone else get annoyed by the "butch sterotype" handy? likes power tools? can fix things?
Fine I burp but..I cant fix things..i dont like being thought of as the person that can fix the door, the light switch, or the one who wants to go up the ladder and clean the leaves from the gutters.
I now have tools..all sorts...that out of necessity I have had to buy because once in a while I get this brainstorm of an idea to build something. But that does not mean I know how to fix or repair things in the house.....like....toilets, sinks, or cars..... My Diva's are convinced if they call me it will magically be fixed... not sure why cause my response is usually.....looks broekn to me......... then I say call the repair person, the mechanic, the tow truck, the plumber, the elctrician....

Hey Dean,

I get what you are saying about how you feel like nobody can emasculate you. That is great for you.

What comments like "only a Butch would understand" and the subsequent examples of "burping or farting" do is create an atmosphere that is hostile and unwelcoming to folks who do not embrace the binary. It also can feel gross to have these stereotypes heralded as "the way" in a Queer space. I want to ask you to please do some thinking around this.

As far as saying that someone is making comments to "be a bitch".

This is a very sexist and unwelcoming comment. The word "bitch" is often used in a sexist way to silence women and is unacceptable in that use on this website. You may be comfortable with this verbiage and you are most welcome to use that verbiage in your daily life in your own home but it is not welcome on this site.

I want you to feel welcome here as a member but we have already received numerous reports over things you have posted in other areas. I am asking you as the Administrator to please do some hard thinking about the way you are interacting with the members here.

While I am not asking you to change the way you think, I am asking you to at least give some thought to how what you say makes other people feel.

We do not want to create a site where posturing, hierarchies, sexism, or ignorance is the norm...nor do we want members to feel that their own gender identities or ways of being are being mocked, "othered", or dismissed.

Again, please take some time to do some hard thinking around this issue and take the initiative to make sure that your words are welcoming and inclusive of all ways of being.

Thanks,
Admin

well, needless to say we split, not because of her comments, but because of all the above. I'm male ID'd and transgendered and if she didn't get that in the first placed she shouldn't have let on. It's water under the bridge now, but I'm not the only one who has gone through this. I look at as a low blow and unnessessary. It didn't negate my maleness, it annihlated (sp) my trust. How could some I loved deliver a cheap shot like that...i'm not an asshole for being involved with her, just really stupid.

Sidebar To the Administrator.
Just a note that I think you run one of the coolest ships I've ever seen... and I respect it.

*Language*
 

I used to do this years ago when I was more into forum participation but this is a new site, so I'd like to suggest something if I may:

maybe there should be a discussion on the definitions of words like:

"emasculate" and "effeminate" as they appear to go hand in hand, and perhaps discuss the antiquity of definitions of these words.

Because I'm looking at the definitions of both online, and I'm not at all impressed with those:

ie:
emasculate

–verb (used with object) 1. to castrate. 2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken.
–adjective 3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate.

Origin:
1600–10; < L ēmasculātus (ptp. of ēmasculāre), equiv. to ē- e- + māscul(us) male + -ātus -ate 1

Related forms:
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tion, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tive, adjective
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tor, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅to⋅ry  /ɪˈmæskyələˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-mas-kyuh-luh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA , adjective


ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate

–adjective 1. (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy. 2. characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury.
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 3. to make or become effeminate.

Origin:
1350–1400; ME < L effēminātus, equiv. to ef- ef- + fēmin(a) woman + -ātus -ate 1

Related forms:
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ly, adverb
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ness, noun
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅na⋅tion, noun

----------------------

It might be beneficial to start a thread to discuss these terms and how it affects *ALL* of us, and/or how that affects different genders on the spectrum.

As for burping... The best burper in *my* world? is that of my sister in law (who presents as femme or has in the past) who can burp out the ENTIRE alphabet. As far as I'm concerned she wins in that gas department.

*waving to all butch buddies*

oh.. and this is a special hello to Metropolis... you didn't know this, but when I post status quips on Facebook, all replies are forwarded to my cell phone, and there I was in the grocery store trying to decide on what kind of chips I wanted last night, while you flirted outrageously with Beau... *on my friggen facebook*... interrupting my grocery shopping.

sheesh... where's the love and why does Beau always get it? I wanna :spank: you both for not including me in brokeback mountain moment. Just sayin' if you're gonna flirt while I'm shopping? It better be with me. ;)

what I think all would understand
 

and now for something completely different

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI"]YouTube- Monty Python "How Not To Be Seen"[/ame]

from one who at least wants to be seen here,
Beau :army:

Heys beau...

So.. I have a question that has been burning on the tip of my fingers for YEARS.. but now feel that I can ask this question..

So.. what of the butch who is a living breathing sterotype of what a sterotype of a butch is? You speak for yourself as a non burping femail id butch who has no concerns regarding your masculinity.. Can't a male ID burping, concerned about being demascunlized butch speak up as well?

You get to talk for you.. He gets to talk for him...

I have someone who I call my brother.. He is the stero type of a hard working blue collar masculine ID butch.. When he and his girl get into a fight, she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him... It might not hurt you for someone to call you by your birth name.. But for someone you love and trust to knowingly go for your soft spot.. It's not a lovely thing..

The lovely thing about the world is.. People come in all kinds of flavor.. all different types... Not one way is the right way to be...

Male ID Butchs... they are not just some *stero type* They are living breathing people who have the same right as anyone else to complain, say what makes them smile, what makes them happy, and what makes them cry...

If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being more of the masculine/male ID flavor.. then start one where it's not.... Don't make people feel bad about them selfs because they are different than you...


Huggs.. and much love to the Mrs...

*reads Chris's post*

*starts laughing*

'scuse me, Diva, can I borrow this?

*pulls Derailer Crown from Diva's head, plops it onto Chris's*

k y'all, carry on! ;)

I get this exactly and it does hurt your pride and heart. It's bad enough to feel like you're in the wrong body always saving face and never feeling like you can just be you without being scrutinized and then to have someone you love and whom you wouldn't hurt demoralize and and completely negate your love, your masculinity and your person as being nothing. I don't care how much anyone says they roll off the comments. It's not that easy, not for me because in that moment in time she shattered my trust in the relationship and in the quality of the person i thought her to be....then negated the person whom I thought she loved as "her man"

your words, not mine
 

Oh you're such a wallflower... you should have spoke up... :eyebat:

Jet - I think part of what it is ... is human psychology. During our courtship our women learn what it is that drives us, inspires us, what are pleasures are, our intimate thoughts, our favorite movies, music, food to eat... and so forth. When it come to the nastiness of a bad argument or break-up, some of them start pushing buttons, they find the thing that insults, shocks, tears us down, etc. the most - and go for the jugular vein...

=unabashedly Burps...Loud, when in company of Close-knit family/friends only...highly amusing...=

*Sneezes hard...covered mouth of course, if the loudness annoys, tough, I cant control that any more than u can control an open mouth Yawn when exhausted..=

= Passes Gas...Yup...I do make sure when appropriate, to TRY and leave the "busy" area...If I hold, I get the stomach cramps, not u..=

Only my immediate relatives are allowed to freely use my Birth name....
Anyone else will get a home-brewed Glare and Correction to use my Legal name...if it persists, I am not responsible for my smart-ass'd cynical/asshole redhead temper.....

= TransMasculine identified stone Butch, Loving this thread=

Personally, I think part of the "things only a butch would understand" is that knowing how to be "handy" and fix things, use tools, learn which tools to buy and which will make your life/ task easier... Does not come at birth!

Generally speaking, most of the butches/ women I know had at least one brother to whom their Dad's "taught" helpful junk to. Fixing cars/ toilets, etc. and as adults, we learned to hate that because we became reliant upon the service industry to do even the simplest repairs/ maintenance tasks.

What this butch understands is that even though my Dad didn't teach me and I spent years waiting and paying for repairs was that I could learn and it was actually pretty cool to do so. Some projects are fraught with frustration "while" I learn, but the end result of being able to do something "handy" for myself kicks ass! Burp! HOO RAH! ~scuse me~

The flip side of this process of tool discovery is the new category of superhero it places me into. I don't think of most butches I know as stereotypical anything. They are doctors, lawyers, chefs, teachers, mechanics, accountants who can or cannot burp , fart, or do floral arrangements with an uncanny grace that is neither masculine or feminine , it is moreover a reflection of confidence and care for the task at hand.

What I do feel pretty certain that all butches might understand is our own need to be exactly whom we are with all of the differences ( often from one another) that that may mean. I identify very strongly with my more masculine traits, however being born in this body and being seen and raised as a "girl" created a strong sense of seeking my own truths. It is just a guess on my part that many ( if not most) butches feel a very deep sense or need ( maybe urgency) to ID ourselves rather than have "any" stereotypes.

I do have an inner "pig" who loves to commandeer the remote, guzzle a brew, and make passionate armchair commentary while watching Hells' Kitchen. ( How many thought I was gonna say football? heh.. gotcha!) I also have a deep desire to make my girls home her sanctuary filling each back breaking chore with love.

I am very interested to see how conversations like this will go in this new space. I sincerely try not to be a shit stirrer and try to see things as an opportunity for me to perhaps expand the way I see the world and myself.

Thanks for some early morning brain candy.. to everyone who has shared!

I do have a things only butches would understand situation that I may get brave enough ( or stupid enough ) to share.. but I will give it a bit to see if this is the right place to do it... LOL!

Again, Thanks a heap folks!
Jess

Welcome *
 

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (of all ID's) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

P.S good post Jess, Tommi

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

Metropolis,

I'm sorry..

Sometime, what is in my head doesn't come out right... I was using the / as a *and*

Masculine/male = Those that have/feel masculine energy/id, but do not identify with male and those who have masculine energy and also feel male Identity..

Thanks for your post Jet. I do sincerely wish the best for you as well. I am pondering your post and thinking that understanding is not always a given among butches, but a process that sometimes may take some time- and that's ok.

It's understandable, being that fresh... we'll be here when you feel like it... I'm sure there's more than a few of us who've been through similar.

In the mean time hope you stick around and just enjoy the discussions, comradery and general what-not.

Peace to you too

Metro

(Ms Cyn... no apoligies needed, and thx for your clarification)

LOL... she always tilts her head at me, holds out the lipstick and smirking says ... "want some?"