Lesbian bed death?
 

I guess I don't see the correlation with this *syndrome* and lesbianism...this could happen in any relationship.

Medical problems and stress are just the beginning, there are a host of other reasons why people lose interest, most of which I feel are personal between the two partners.

Once certain damage is done, the sex interest drops... I have to feel I am desired and more important than anything else in order to have interest. In this day and age, between addictions including the internet, and everything else being more important, intimacy and creativity in the bedroom go down the drain.

Gotta make each other a priority in life....

Just my .02 worth.

Most frequent to least frequent sex (many studies show)

1) male/male

2) female/male

3) female/female


The thought is testosterone = higher levels of sexual desire. The thought is that females need to have a positive emotional connection with their partner in order to desire sex ( or rather, females have more of a need for there to be no tension in the relationship in order to desire sex), more so than males. So, if you have two females together and there are difficulties in the relationship, less chance of sex happening than the other two couplings.

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My personal thoughts:

Lesbian bed death? = problem in relationship. Does it exist? Well, everyone's (all couplings) frequency in sexual relations decreases over time, so if female/female are having less sex to begin with, it makes sense that it could drop to zero, especially if there are problems in the relationship.

My opinion is that bed death could happen in any coupling if there are problems in the relationship.

Of course health impacts all this, as well.

I never thought of it the way DapperButch explained it, but it does make sense.

I have wondered about this phenomonon for some time since I have a good friend who has been in a sex-free relationship for years. Also this phenomenon seems to have a more frequent occurrence among female-female relationships. (Or at least we are willling to talk about it while others are not.) One factor that I believe may be involved is this: we are exposed to a lot of negative input from society at large, our parents, our kids, our employers and coworkers etc. I think it is possible with some individuals that this negative input builds up over time and the resultant guilt makes it harder to feel good about having sex. Add to that the belief still lingering around in the world that women aren't supposed to like sex and that "good girls" are not sexually aggressive. Crap - when I think about it like that, its a wonder that ANY of us have sex. LOL.

Speaks well for our inner strength, doesn't it?

Smooches,
Keri

Hello all :)

I was going to post last night, but was so tired that I doubted I could form a coherent sentence. As I lay in bed I thought...funny...I'm too exhausted for posting, but not for sex...so, at least for me, physical tiredness has nothing to do with it.

I've been interested to read the comments here...don't agree necessarily, but interested just the same.

Let's see...for me, intimacy and sex are totally different things. I can have one without the other. I generally don't...but I can.

It isn't a lack of testosterone....I'm definitely not flooded with that, but I have a stronger sex drive than "normal" (men included).

And it isn't about a negative image or disapproval from the larger culture, because I didn't get the normal "sex is bad/dirty" messaging that many women get growing up, and I don't care what anyone thinks...and, also, I've had the same phenomenon happen in relationships with bio-men as well.

So....what is it then, for me?

A few things can happen....if I am angry, or feel attacked, or undervalued...then I don't feel sexual. I feel defensive or hurt, and those don't lead to either sexual desire or the feeling of desirability, value and safety that I need to want sex. That's the most common...

I've heard of people in long-term (as in years) relationships without sex...not only lesbian relationships, but also hetero relationships. I was in one for almost 2 years, and the lack of sexual connection killed the relationship. For me, sex is a crucial part. No, I don't have a particular timetable or act or *fill in the blank* that must happen...I'm not that rigid...but there has to be a sexual connection and a spark. As I've said in these forums before....if our bed is only for sleeping, then I'm an unhappy woman.

Here's what happens in my head...I am intimate with my best friend. I love her. She loves me. We know everything (and I do mean every thing) about each other. I have held her hand in the hospital. She has clipped my toenails when I was pregnant and couldn't reach them anymore. I have helped her check the "what the hell is that?" in a place she couldn't see. We are closer than most sisters. We think alike. We even look a bit alike. But we do not have a sexual spark with each other.

If I am in a love relationship, and our sex life dies, then I start to feel about you (general you) the way I do about her. There may be love. There may be intimacy. But suddenly we are sisters or friends....and it isn't the same. I don't plan my future with my friend, as much as I love her. I don't want to spend every night wrapped in her arms, as much as she loves me.

For me, there has to be more than love...more than intimacy...more than companionship...more than shared values....more than a shared residence.

I have known of plenty of heterosexual relationships (testosterone included) where there was little if any sex- "bed death." But there is no term called heterosexual bed death. There's no term called gay men bed death.

Women have lower sex drives than men- I think that's a huge myth. Not everyone needs testosterone or a penis to want or enjoy sex.

I think that for queer women our sexuality is a bit more hard-won than for straight women. While, yes, being queer IS something that just happened - knowing it and what it means ISN'T something that just happens. There's work and there's thought there. Because of that I don't think that we buy into a lot of the myths and fake-rules about sex that people who haven't had to really fight/learn MAY often buy into.

Nobody is going to tell me that I have to have sex with my spouse. Nobody is going to tell me that it's my wifely duty to have sex with my spouse when I don't feel like it. Nobody is going to make me feel guilty for not having sex with my spouse when I am mad/hurt/annoyed/have a toothache/tired/whatever. My sexuality just comes with far too much self-awareness for me to fall for any of that bullshit.

So IF and ONLY IF female-female couples are fucking less often 5/10/15 years into the relationship than their male-female couple counterparts (and that's a big if, I don't know that I buy that) - that's the reason. Because we are fortunate enough to know that we are ALLOWED to not fuck.

Some women don't know that they have that choice.

Whose thoughts??

Did this come from The Onion?????

must be satire.......has to be satire.......

Hey Dapper, please cite the source of this. Thanks

I think there are many, many things that can be defined as sex...and I can't imagine a condition that would preclude all of them.

If my partner was unable to participate in a particular kind of sex because of a medical condition or injury...no problem. I have a great imagination. :)

What I would "dump" a partner for is a continual lack of any desire to engage in sex of any kind with me. For me, that's the deal killer. It isn't whether someone can handle any specific act...it's the unwillingness or lack of desire to engage in anything at all.

I gotta be honest, the bed often looks like "death bed" when I'm on my period.

That count!? :)

http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/se...-women-compare

Not tough to find. The first one google came up with.

But, who cares, anyway? Meaning, it isn't a BAD thing if that is the case. It is ok if there truly is some differences between the sexes based on biology. I think that so many of us (me included), spend a lot of time trying to prove their is no differences, as if that is a bad thing.

And getting back to the topic, certainly not all women have a lower sex drive than all men. It is individual. But as a whole, yes... men tend to desire sex more often and have more sex than women do. Is this truly new for people?

Do you think that transmen are lying when they say that their sex drive went up after starting testosterone? Do you think this is just all in their heads or something?

What's not new to me is all the perpetuation of myths about lesbians and women's sexuality.

Red highlighted statement - Did someone say that here? Yes, I agree that this would be a bit ludicrous to think. After all, females do desire sex. Side note, females have testosterone, too, just less of it than males.

Dapper what is your point of coming into this thread? To talk about how men want sex more than women?

No, this was my point:

My personal thoughts:

Lesbian bed death? = problem in relationship. Does it exist? Well, everyone's (all couplings) frequency in sexual relations decreases over time, so if female/female are having less sex to begin with, it makes sense that it could drop to zero, especially if there are problems in the relationship.

My opinion is that bed death could happen in any coupling if there are problems in the relationship.

Of course health impacts all this, as well.


You took it to talking about males. I spoke of males into order to explain how I got to my "lose" theory.

I don't agree with the part in bold. It's a generalization. As you yourself said, there is individual variation.

I get real, real tired of the perpetuation of stereotypes of lesbians and women that I see here almost daily. Real, real tired. Now I am going to go take a few aspirin and go do something else.

Ok. I was actually about to post that I am off to bed. Good night.

When I read this I read it as having emphasis on a couple of words, which altered my interpretation of your statement. It altered it into something that, to me, makes sense.

I have bolded the words that I emphasized for convenience.

If 1 then 2.

Thanks, bete. That is helpful and maybe makes my thinking, and intentions, more clear.

I am awesome that way, even though I don't produce as much testosterone as my father does. :canadian:

Why is there the term "Lesbian Bed Death" to begin with? It's a perpetuation of lesbian stereotypes.

I really don't care if there are biological differences. If males overall do desire to have sex more frequently than females based on biology it wouldn't make them better or less human beings- I get that Suebee. I don't really trust the studies and how they are framed, and my personal experience does not bear it out that males want sex more than females. It doesn't make a difference to me whether it's true or not. If Lesbian A wants to have sex more than Lesbian B it doesn't make Lesbian A a better person or a better lesbian either. If Lesbian A and B are a couple, then it could be a problem.

What makes a difference to me is the perpetuation of stereotypes and always comparing women's sexuality with men's.

This idea if lesbians have less sex to begin with (I don't agree with that) that if they are having problems in their relationship that their sex life is going to go to zero makes no sense to me. Lesbians don't just all of a sudden go sexless if they are having relationship problems. I do agree that any couple- whether they are lesbians or not- if they are having problems in their relationship outside the bedroom that their sex life will probably suffer as well.

Lesbian sex is not dependent on men. Even in the individual circumstances where a lesbian is sleeping with a man, in those cases her sexual agency is still her own. So why are we comparing lesbian sex to how much or less men want to have sex to begin with?

Lesbian sex is not defined by men or male standards.

Women's sexuality is just that- women's sexuality. Again, not dependent on men even for those who are sexuality attracted to men.

And yeah, I'm confused why people who are not lesbians are telling lesbians what their sexuality is like and how we have sex less than men. It doesn't matter either way, our sexuality doesn't need to be discussed in male terms. It's irrelevant.

Perhaps I am too tired... but I see nothing in this article that indicates:

"Most frequent to least frequent sex (many studies show)

1) male/male

2) female/male

3) female/female "

What I do see is that mens libido's are more active than females and females sexuality is more fluid... neither of which indicates gay men have longer lasting sexual relationships (and more frequent) than lesbians.... It just says we express it differently...

What I found on Google... (which is by no means scientific)... is something more along the lines of:

"In biology and psychology, the Coolidge effect is a phenomenon—seen in nearly every mammalian species in which it has been tested—whereby both males and females exhibit continuous high sexual performance given the introduction of new receptive partners" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect

...that, in fact, reduced sexual activity is common with all types of couples.. The one study that I found that talked about Lesbian Bed Death and claimed the above "hierarchy" of sexual activity was highly criticized....

The fact is... no matter what kind of relationship one is in... intimacy is hard to maintain when so much of life such as work, career, school, stress, homeownership, children, family concerns, finances, etc etc etc... comes to the forefront. Any one of us can maintain a high level of sexual stimulation when we are in the initial first stages of knowing someone... Prolonged ongoing intimacy takes commitment... and yes, sometimes work... It means taking the relationship seriously enough to prioritize intimacy ... and discovering ways to express it.

Hollywood sells us a load of goods... "falling in love and living happily ever after.." You know, the story where the young couple is highly energized and magnetized towards each other... and then the movie ends with them walking into bliss... forever after. In fact, it really isn't that way at all... It takes focus, patience, strategy, respect, communication, love, and a mutual awareness that intimacy is important to both of you... and that you are both exactly where you want to be... Almost everyone I know in real time is in a long term relationship... and whether they are straight, gay, lesbian, or otherwise identified, we all talk about this the same way... and yes, we do discuss it with our gay male friends as well...

Yes there is one study about "Lesbian Bed Death" that got a lot of press and it has been heavily criticized for how it was conducted.

I know many gay male couples who are completely monogamous and have been together for many, many years- goes against the stereotype I know.

I apologize if what I posted elicited the thread in getting off track in any way. I'll side step out of the thread, now.


P.S. to CityButch, just to clarify. #2 states gay men have more sex than lesbians. I did not say anything about men having longer lasting sexual relationships, I only spoke to what types of couplings were having the most sex.

P.S. To clarify what others may have thought I said: 1)I said nothing about gay male's relationships regarding monogamy.
2)I do not think that I was "telling lesbians what their sexuality is like". I spoke to frequency of sex in male and female couplings, based on my understanding through the course of study. The purpose was to give background to where my thought came from regarding lesbian bed death (or rather, why their may be less sex in female/female couplings than other couplings per research). It no doubt would have behooved me to seek out more academic studies to present, but honestly, did not want to take the time to do that. I would have skipped saying anything if I thought that was necessary to engage.
3)I also did not say that lesbian's relationships go sexless when they are having problems.

I would like to not return to this thread so that it may return to what Kobi wants it to be. I would like to be done with the topic, but will engage with PMs if someone really feels compelled to further discuss.

Thank you.

Kobi, thanks for restating the intent of your post. Since we are back on track, I want to say that the topic was something that I recall being discussed a lot in the late 70s/early 80s ... "Berkeley dykes" discussion groups.

Anyway, I did not experience this at the time, but individuals and couples who did, also seemed to have encountered a relationship death, too. A distancing, emotionally, between them. This is what I thought and it is only my opinion and observation.

In terms of my own experience, this situation happened once, later, and after the women's support groups, which discussed such topics, began to die down. In my/our case, this lack of sexual interest was not medically related. It was something else, something within our relationship, which became aware to me when the sex died (I was yet again in school at the time ...). Can I get a "duh"?

When I did become aware, I discussed this with my partner, we talked for days, and it did resolve, albeit, it took some time to reestablish trust and intimacy.

I post this in order to contribute a personal, and uncomfortable tidbit and am not comfortable doing so ... sometimes others misread one's posts, even from the personal perspective, so I'd appreciate if the reader understands why I do not go into great detail or find it necessary to either dismiss or criticize. I am simply offering MY experience and observation.

This happened to me in my first lesbian relationship, in the first couple of years after I came out. I lost any interest in sex with her or with anyone. I felt disconnected from my own body, too. I remember bringing it up in therapy, and the therapist gave me all these things to try to re-ignite my physical reactions (involving soap, lotion, and showers...). None of it interested me at all. At the same time, I was going through a very contentious and painful coming out process with my family. So, as I've looked at it over the years, I'd say I was depressed. Depression will do that to a person--squash their sex drive.

I had a similar response when I was married to my (bio-male) husband. I could see then that I was depressed, also. I had a bit more insight and self-awareness, as well as some understanding of his feelings, so we did have sex, but it wasn't out of physical desire on my part.

Now, I view sex as a very important aspect of my relationship. If someone lost interest in me, I would want to try to figure it out and resolve it. But, there are factors such as depression, medication, health, stress...and on and on which can impact desire. I wouldn't leave someone because we weren't having sex, but I'd want to understand what was going on and try to fix it, if possible.

Thank you Lynn...for sharing your experience and also bringing up something for me that's been running through my head since Corkey posted.

I can completely see how depression can squash the sex drive. The twist for me is that the lack of sex can trigger depression, igniting a vicious emotional circle for me.

A bit of overshare here, perhaps, but...as a kid, I grew up with very strong messages that I was not wanted, was an inconvenience and then some, and that I was only as good as what I provided or produced. My mother delighted in telling stories of how she thought I was retarded (which can happen when you never speak to your very shy but bright child), and how she had contemplated killing us (my sister and I) and then herself on several occasions....except that she didn't really want to kill herself and didn't want to go to prison.

Fast forward through many destructive relationships with narcissists, a total hitting bottom episode in my life, and years of counseling, journaling, crying and processing...and I'm much better. I know my worth. Life is good.

Except...if I love someone, and they close down on me sexually, the spark is gone when they look at me....then I have to struggle mightily not to flip hard into those old feelings.

I totally get what you and Corkey are saying...and what citybutch said about life's pressures intervening...but for me I need to feel valued, desired and treasured for who I am...not for what I do or provide. You can tell me that I'm a wonderful mother, a good cook, a hard worker, etc. and I will thank you. I appreciate that. But I know those things about myself too. What I need from my partner is that glint in their eye that says they want me....just me...and that they want to connect in that special and intense way that sexuality provides.

If the person I love is struggling with depression or medical issues or whatever that drains their desire, then I will hang in and work with them as long as I am able, and as long as they are trying. But, again just for me, to hang in for years with someone who does not desire me and who isn't trying to fix it (speaking only from my own experience now), then I know that's an incredibly destructive emotional place for me to be and....because I now care about myself too...I need to leave.

And my point DapperButch is that it just isn't true that gay men in long term relationships (which is presumably where Bed Death occurs.. long term relationships) have sex more frequently than lesbians... The studies show that as does my personal experience... In fact, we have friends that are gay and male and they don't have sex at all after many years together (they are the only ones we have actually HAD this discussion with but I suspect it to be true for our other long term relationship friends (and by long term I don't mean 3 years)... My wife and I do have sex in our 12th year of our life together... My point IS... that a withdrawal from sexual activity is universal.. unless there is a concentration on keeping intimacy alive. SO... if we are to have a conversation about Bed Death.. let's discuss it not in terms of a hierarchy of WHO has sex more... and quoting a study that has been debunked. Let's talk about it as the OP intended... What is it and why does it happen?...

<deleted post so as not to derail>

I will PM my response to citybutch

I completely understand what you're saying, and I would tend to agree. After all, depression affects more than just sex drive. One could tend to give up on everything and become very intoverted. This isn't a great place from which to express intimacy and affection, even if there isn't sex. A relationship implies the involvement of more than one person. There has to be a point when one decides they did what they could and it just isn't getting better. I believe everyone has the right to decide when enough is enough.

I agree with you Corkey. It's a human condition that can happen to any couple. That's why I said earlier why is there no term for heterosexual bed death or gay men bed death. The whole term and that study that was widely publicized are just perpetuating myths about lesbians plain and simple.

You definitely bring up good points about things that should be discussed before seriously committing to a relationship.

I think also sometimes there are sexual incompatibilities that can become more of an issue as time goes on. Obviously the best thing to do is try and work them out, but sometimes it really isn't possible and you don't realize how much of an issue it is until some time has passed. At least this is something I have experienced.