Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It
 

The media puts so much pressure on women to look a certain way: to be rail thin, but not with a flat chest; to always be perfectly put together; to have completely symmetrical facial features; to conform to society's idea of femininity; and the list continues.

I have been with plenty of femmes who struggled with body image issues...

But what about the butches?

I decided to start this thread because I've observed body image issues are a largely taboo subject among the butches I've known. So many people associate self consciousness and eating disordered behavior with those who are much more feminine.

I starved myself in middle school when I noticed I was growing breasts. I wanted to be less of a girl and consequently more of a guy. I binge ate in high school and experimented with steroids so I would gain weight and, again, appear to be more of a guy. I tried to alter my body composition to an unhealthy state.

Apart from wanting to appear more male in general (I am genderqueer/transgendered/largely male ID'd), I've felt pressure to be "man enough"/"butch enough" for any femme I liked. I like to be physically strong for myself, but I also want to make sure I am strong enough to impress the femmes.

I want to look good. I want to be appealing. My fear of shallow women has definitely driven me to work a little harder, too.

It's not the toughest, most butch-like act to admit to this sort of thing, but I know I am not the only one of our kind to have gone through this struggle.

What pressure or expectations have you felt from society or yourself with regards to your body, being a butch?

Do these expectations still plague you? How do you handle them?

Let's share our stories.

remember this: Every single thing you do/act/look is butch, no matter what it is. That is true because you are butch and if you are doing it....then it's a butch thing.

In my experience what femmes want from us is that we be real....to be who we are without shame or guilt. Muscle strength is way down on the list. Having a generous heart and acting from that heart are way up on the list.

Good topic and one that I really want to respond to but need to be a bit more together in thought than I am at this moment.

Be back later :)

I agree 100% with Toughy.

For me, butch is who I am at the core of my being. I am not trying to fulfill stereotypes or impress anyone with that identity. The women I have encountered were seeking a butch who knew how to treat women right and were not looking at superficial aspects (mannerisms or physique).

I live by the adage I am who I am. Of course each day I strive to be the best that I can be, but the basis is still the same. Take me as I am or not. Others opinions of me do not alter who I am. I do not need validation for that role.

That is just my view on this topic.

Well, I agree...

However, I have personally encountered some rather superficial femmes who had quite a list of demands they wanted a butch to meet, ie the attitude of: "I'm hot shit and you better be hot shit, too! You have to be everything I want or I can go find someone who is -- because, once again, I'm hot shit!" I do realize people evolve with time and that the superficial ones I came across when I was, say, 20, have probably grown up quite a bit.

I know I project a tough guy sort of image without necessarily intending to do it. I do occasionally fear disappointing people when they find out I'm not completely the tough guy they thought I was, though I acknowledge that is an assumption they chose to have. Humans are not one dimensional.

Hey good thread. I hope to post when I have more time. I look forward to reading the post.

my thoughts
 

If a femme came to me and voiced that she is all that and a bag of chips and pepsi is what the hell you talking about, fuck off.

Once I settled down, my thoughts are this, you can never be good enough, you can never please someone like that. You're going to spend all your time trying to be what she wants you to be.In the end when you fail to meet her standards she is going to walk away and try and find someone that can.

It's my experience when a potential partner (either Butch or femme) yes there are butches out there that think they are all that and more as well. Think they can find anyone at a drop of a hat isn't going to take the time to work out issues in a relationship. I think we all know that it takes some work to keep a relationship going. There has to be some give and take, some understanding that we are not perfect and a work in progress.

There is nothing wrong with having self confidence in who or what you are. You just need to know we all are a work in progress.

In my opinion, when someone thinks they are hot shit,think they have lines of people lined up to bed them wake up one morning, looks in the mirror and realizes their still single.

There was a time when I was concerned with how my "butchness" was perceived by others (albeit that time was over twenty years ago) I've learned a lot since then.

When one decides that they will no longer conform to the societal expectations of how they are to act, dress, perform, eat, sleep, or fuck–then one becomes who they truly are.

So, I say to you, Alex; live up to your own expectations. Strive to meet your own standards and once you have, set the bar higher.

LOL... My instant reaction to the idea of a femme saying such to me ... was "Yes, baby what can I do for you?" --I can play that game--

but seriously, I understand what you meant musicman.

I face the stereotype of 'what is Butch' almost every day.
I don't...(I hit an emotionalblock on this train of thought) so I'll rephrase it...
if I see a reflection of myself looking male... as I percive myself... it almost instantly triggers a reaction of "you don't measure up" ... I feel some shame that I don't have the upper body strength.. That I think I should have...

looking butch enought for a woman, is a particular issue I get passed, because I date/play with women who like a female presentation. so I am in drag anyway.

I get quite a bit of headshaking from other Butches. but so far the ones who have talked with me understand where I am coming from. but, I think it stills makes them uncomfortable. (that I am in drag)

came back to add: so far most of the responces have been, along the lines of "just accept who you are, and how you are and get on with it" ... I was thinking that the discussion was intended to be more on HOW to get over it. (with some details) and what does it feel like "in the process" ... very valid points for discussion.

First I would say love yourself, take pride in being who you are and stay away from shallow women. If a women is after you only because you look the way she wants you to look she is not ready for the many paths and forks your life will take along the way.

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

YES !!! IT DOES!!!!

(to me anyway)


--Laughing-- the red lipcolor on a Butch, really bothers a lot of people

this femme's $.02, if I may
 

When I first met my partner, she kept repeating "but I am NOT a butch!" Yeah right. I could FEEL the butch, male energy rolling off of her. 'Bout knocked me over! It was how she walked (she had the swagger going on), how she talked, how she sat, how she dressed... yes it was all of that, but damnit it was WAAY more than that! It came from within her. It was a palpable aura and energy that was just HER. And the femme in ME, the woman in me who has loved on and lusted over butch women for most of my life, woke up, became ALIVE again. Skin-pricklies going on. Breath-catching going on. That inner recognition in ME, recognizing and connecting with the butch energy in HER, THAT is what caught me. Would I have had the same reaction if she had red fingernails or was wearing a dress? If her butch energy was strong enough, it might have triggered something in me. Don't know. I do know that for me, the outer package is just part of it. I need and desire and connect with and give myself to that butch energy. My femme wants to dance the dance with that butch energy.

I was so NOT trying to presume to label her as a butch that first night, and in talks we've had later. I cannot or will not label anyone, that is for them to do. She has told me though, that I am the first person that has truly SEEN *her*, and accepted *her* as she is. She IS a butch, but she is a *woman* too. HELL YEAH! (I told her that for ME, she is exactly what I was looking for... she has the butch side and the female side as well. I get to play with both! Woo-hoo!)

and I am being serious..........yes all of those things are butch when a butch wears/does them. There are plenty of butches who wear skirts and make-up to work every day. It's drag and we all wear drag of some kind or another every day.

-------------------

I cannot tell a butch (or anyone for that matter) what their process looks like when it comes to acceptance of the body we are born into.

I have always identified as a girl/woman and have never doubted that at all. The butch came later when I was in college. I knew I was a different kind of woman than what the TV/magazines/etc said I should be. It was the old bulldyke at the first dive gay bar I went to, who told me I was butch.

I was raised by women of pioneer stock. One of my grandmothers told stories about coming to NM in a covered wagon. All my women elders could do anything men could do and more. They all wore pants as well as dresses. I did not get that indoctrination of my greatest achievement would be in being a wife and a mother. I was lucky.....really lucky and I am always grateful to those women who provided examples of strong women whose worth was not defined by their husband and children.

Of course I was unsure about sex and my body.....everyone is. I was fortunate in finding femmes who helped me along with that....oh yes indeed they helped.....<grin>

I am never impressed with superficiality. never. ever. I understand there are femmes (and butches) who are superficial and I have a high radar for it. And I don't play in their playground. I don't want to be around anyone who is superficial.....there are plenty of other folks in this world.

I think I am rambling so I will stop.......

edited to add..........oh yeah......my only body image was I wanted to be 6 ft tall ...............5'8" is too short and I was a bit insecure about not being feminine enough but I outgrew that.

I'm obviously far from butch but wading in because this thread moved me. I have to agree that it's like some inner space that speaks outwardly to me no matter how a person presents (throw on a dress and I'll still see you but maybe not quite as easily). As a femme, butchness calls to an inner space in me. But just like all femmes are not the same, neither are all butches (thank gawd!).

In a society that constantly evaluates people, especially female genders, on a set of standards and expectations of beauty and attractiveness I don't think you can grow up and dodge that bullet. Being butch may even be more complicated because there are two standards to push against instead of one. There is a silent butch standard even in the queer community.

But no matter what standards might exist in life trying to meet them pulls us farther from our true selves and anyone that might fall for that version of us is falling in love with an idea not a person. So I have to agree with the other posters. Work on being the healthiest happiest YOU you can be and it will be attractive to the right person. Who you are shines from the inside and that is what is attractive.

Well said....

Apologies for participating in the derail, but I do want to comment on this. I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity. That said, I don't think examining the ways in which butches may or may not choose to rock feminine drag is the purpose of the OP.

I'm really interested in how butches choose role models, especially while growing up. It must be extraordinarily complex. We're all bombarded with impossible ideals for feminine beauty, but for better or worse, there are virtually no media representations of butchness. How can/do butches, especially butches who grow up in relative isolation, make choices about how to present themselves? If that happens in isolation, it would seem like a minor miracle if eating disorders were not widespread amongst younger butches.

My own personal opinion...and mine alone
 

I am butch, I am female, I am a woman. I have never compared myself to males or used that as any sort of measuring stick for what butch is for me. Therefore I never come up short.

I do embrace masculinity- female masculinity. It is expressed through my energy, my appearance, my attitude and sense of self. It is a large part of being butch and who I am.

As to my body I would prefer not to have breasts, but I can live with it and do. Other than that I am quite fine with my female body.

First let me say. I speak ONLY for me and anything put down in this post refers ONLY to how I feel. I am not making blanket statements in anything I write here but only trying to lay out the experiences I have had.

I identify as butch/queer. I only identify because it helps OTHERS understand who I am. If I had a choice, I would like to identify as Chris but that's a whole different topic.

To me, the media is just downright evil when it comes to defining the human form whether masculine, feminine or other. How would it be if we all just lived in the dark? I wouldn't question my body or appearances because, well, what would I be comparing it to? I fully admit that commercialized beauty gets into my fragile little psyche and does a number on it. Do I want to look like an Adonis? Hell yes. Do I? Hell no. Do I care? Hell yes. Do I want to care? Absolutely not. It is a struggle. It is a daily struggle. It makes me feel superficial and shallow and I hate that.

There are days when I wake up and look in the mirror and think "there is NO way in HELL I'd show this body to anyone". Since I am not considering transitioning, I need to come to a happy compromise when it comes to what I "see" and what is real. For me, this is simply eating well, working out and keeping my body fit. Notice, I didn't say lean. I said fit. However, commercialized beauty will either send me under the blanket on the couch (there's now way I can measure up to society's expectations) or it motivates me back to the gym. This is a crap shoot on any given day and I tend to react both ways.

It's no wonder folks have eating disorders. I know for me, I choose my clothing wisely. I am actually quite anal about this. I buy only men's clothing and make sure that it makes my physique look masculine. Shopping for me is a chore and not a fun one. It takes a lot of trying on of clothes to make me happy. It can be depressing and makes me go to that "under the blanket place" pretty quickly. Especially when you finally find that brand that fits and they change it or discontinue it.

As far as what femmes expect? I can't answer that. But I do catch myself posturing and puffing out the chest sometimes. Does this help my cause? I have no idea. I'm sure I get more snickers than anything. The bottom line in my world is: everyone is different and well, not everyone is for everyone.

I am at a place in my life now where my body image is all about me. I need to be happy with how I look. Really, that's all that matters. I don't always get to that place but that's okay. I do believe that when I feel like I look like a million bucks (even if I just stepped off of a dirt pile) then others see that in me as well. Confidence does amazing things...just saying. :)

The overall sentiment that it's how we feel inside that defines us is the absolute truth. There is indeed someone for everyone.

Cheers,

Scoobs

Actually, you spoke quite well for me too. Thank you.

:balloon:

I read "The Well of Loneliness" in my early 20s and it changed my world. It was my first exposure to female masculinity and my first exposure to the butch/femme dynamic. Later on in life, maybe late 30s, I happened to cross paths with a very butch woman who ended up bring vast amounts of wisdom and insight to my life under the rock :)

52 years worth of process...so far...
 

ScubaDyke - I identify strongly with everything you said. You summed up my sentiments perfectly.

I've had pressure from a Femme because I wasn't big enough. I'm sorry but I'm not going to gain weight to make you feel more secure. I'm a small butch who can kick ass if I need too. ;)

it goes both ways at times
 

I had more to say, but no time to sit down and write it until now. :)

With regards to role models, I was a very boyish kid. When people asked me who I wanted to be when I grew up, my reply was always, "I want to be a man!" This scared some adults. :) I thought I wanted to transition, so I looked up to the men who I found honorable. I definitely viewed my dad in high regard and wanted to be just like him. He treated my mom well and instilled in me the ideals of being a gentleman. I also looked up to the leading men in old movies because they were well-dressed, polite, and surrounded by ladies.

When I was 20 years old, I read "Stone Butch Blues" and felt I had many similarities with the narrator, Jess. She was an inspiration; even though she was a character in a book, she made me feel like someone "got it." I felt very third-gendered; not quite a man and not quite a woman - Jess called herself a "he she" and I called myself a "dude chick."

Like the young Jess, I, too, had a couple older butches take me under their wing when I first moved to DC and immersed myself in the gay scene. They both saw bits and pieces of themselves in me and were happy to talk to someone young, green, and sincere. I did not see them as role models per se, but I deeply respected them and enjoyed swapping stories.

I also see Ivan E Coyote as an inspiration.

I dated and pursued a few girls when I was a teenager. Most of them were "straight," so I felt definite pressure to one-up bio men. I thought I could treat a girl better than most of the guys (both in and out of the bedroom), though I was deeply saddened that I couldn't grow a dick and do what guys could. Once I bought my first strap on at 18, that insecurity went away. ;) *Smirk*

I was sheltered from queer culture as a teen, so I found myself constantly asking, "Who would want someone like me?" and even crying about it. I was so excited when I discovered femmes. :D Having grown up around guys (weight lifting team in high school, was friends with all the jocks), I gained some of that typical guy mentality and wanted the hottest girl possible on my arm. In order to get the hottest girl possible, I put a lot of pressure on myself to look very good, too.

I have since realized the grave importance of intellectualism (sure, beauty and brains are both important, but an intelligent mind is what will keep me around). That is simply part of growing up. I have also gotten my fair share of compliments on the way I look, which made me feel compelled to keep things nice. The compliments have been a huge turnaround from what I was used to while growing up. I was pushed down the stairs in middle school for being an "ugly boy" and ridiculed throughout my youth for being different. The insults to my physical appearance as a kid scarred me. Frankly, I was not ugly. No. I was just different.

People fear what they do not understand.

Amen to both statements!!

Fucking, AMEN!!!! I love this post!

Acceptance
 

first, let me say how much i have enjoyed these posts. a lot of common ground regarding our paths that have led to self-acceptance.

i too wanted to be a boy. from my earliest memories i was begging my parents for more masculine clothes, boy toys, to cut my hair shorter. i even wore my brother's suit for picture day in second grade. i was very fortunate to have parents that indulged my interests and was given a carpentry set and all sorts of tools, fishing / hunting equipment, bicycles, motorcycles, b-ball, etc from the age of 5. my dad would tell me if i could kiss my elbow i would turn into a boy. i struggled with that contortion.

when it comes to butch energy i believe that is spot on...alive and well. i'm androgyneous. and physically have been able to live as a butch and a femme. now note and i will say again that's physically as a femme. and i did so in my late 20s into my mid-30s because i believed it would help me assimilate more in the corporate world. i grew my hair out, i wore skirts, make-up, earrings. i attracted a lot of butches, i had men try to carry my luggage for me at the airport, etc. but i still had the swagger / mannerisms that conflicted with what people saw and what they sensed about me. if i approached a ticket agent and she had her head down to the computer, she would always say, "how my i help you, sir?" then look up and gulp. i didn't look like a man in drag. i was a beautiful woman. the butch energy just exudes from me.

1997 rolled around. i found myself living in LA with a partner that loved my dichotomy but struggled with her own sexuality and outness. i said fuck all this, shaved my head clean and headed out on my bicycle for a 6-week sabbatical. after 3 weeks i was itching to get back to work...and my head itched under my bandana because my hair was growing out. i haven't ever looked back. i keep my hair short and dress as myself in a butch corporate kind of way. no longer do i focus on being so much a success there as i concentrate on being the best me i can be. don't get me wrong, i still strive to do a great job at work. i don't identify "success" with my job as the target i'm trying to hit any longer. i want my personal happiness and acceptance to be that.

Can I Help You, Sir?
 

"Can I help you, sir?" For so many years this question tumbled from the mouths of those who did not know me. I thought this question came only because they were looking at my height, and the substance of me, and not the whole of me. Surely it could not be that they truly thought I was a man. Yes, I was 6’ tall and lean with shoulders wider than hip. Yes, I had short hair. Yes, I wore men’s clothing and shoes. Was this all it took to be thought a male?

Quickly hunching over in effort to pull my breasts into me, dropping my voice down as many octaves as possible, I attempted to become the man my addresser thought me to be. Without making eye contact, I would hurry to the sanctity of the exit, as I muttered, “just looking". More often than not, they stood staring at me, confused, before apologizing and falling all over themselves to correct their mistake. This only made it worse. I hated myself, as well as the angst and confusion being me, seemingly caused others.

I knew were I to open my mouth to speak, were I to look them squarely in the eye, they would see the error of their way. I knew it would be uncomfortable for them. Why did I care if this person, whom I did not know, was made to feel uncomfortable? It was not my issue after all. It would fall on their shoulders right? They were the ones that did not “see” me. Did not take the time to “see” the woman that stood before them. So many years I blamed others. It took me so very long to understand that they DID “see” me. It was I who did not “see” myself. It was I that was uncomfortable. It saddens me to admit, I performed this on the spot transformation, because I was ashamed and embarrassed. I did this because I did not know then, that is was not only alright to be me, but that being me was something special, and rare.

I can not blame my struggle with my “butchitude” (as I would come to call it) on not knowing any other like me. I can not blame it on the ignorance of others. The struggle was mine. I did not trust that being who and what I was, was alright. It was not until I met, what I was to learn was a “femme”, that I came to know the dynamic I needed in order to realize complete love and acceptance. It was enlightening and life-altering. My person, and my ability to express it, became part of me, and I reveled in it. I felt the personal freedom to no longer hide the masculine essence that was so much a part of me. I embraced it, and it changed my world.

She was the one that helped me understand that not only was I worthy of being loved just as I am, but because of it. And to think, I almost walked away from her because I felt being with me might cause her public embarrassment. My struggle might have lingered, had this beautiful woman not seen me, had not said to me “Listen, you idiot, get over yourself and do it right now! I knew when I got with you people would know I was queer, and for the first time in my life, I don’t care and you shouldn‘t either”.

That statement alone, allowed me to accept who and what I was. It afforded me the ability and the understanding to just be. It gifted me with the confidence to revel in my masculine energy. It gave me happiness and self-acceptance.

Gone are the days of sucking in my chest, of speaking in some distorted voice in effort to appease the comfort levels of others. Butch did not mean I had to be, or was, a man, It did not mean I was not meant to be in my body. I am a butch woman and masculine energy pours forth from within me. It is palpable, and truthfully, it kinda makes me feel desirable. It seems so easy now, being butch. I spent a lot of years struggling internally, but here I sit today, proudly proclaiming, I am butch…I am me.