A straight girl enters the queer world...
 

I have a dear friend of mine who has recently entered into a relationship with a trans-man. She's never had any sort of alternate relationship with anything other than bio-men, and is struggling, though she won't openly admit it.

I myself was straight when I met my trans-man, but I was raised by lesbians therefor always had a base understanding of the lifestyle, though by all means did this make me an expert or even experienced, but I'm finding giving her advice difficult, truly.

She seems to lack so much of the basic knowledge, yet feels her 'love' for him, is enough. When I first met my Daddy, I was a sponge for information. For those few who remember me from the other B-F forums with him, I was constantly posting, asking questions, getting involved in discussions, and I learned so much, and it helped me to truly learn about him, his doubts, his worries, his concerns, and all of those things he faces every day, that I would have been oblivious to. And my ability to educate myself, created a portal into him, more thoroughly.

I find she is caught up more in her 'love' for what he offers her, especially since as Daddy puts it, trans-men and butches have a way into a woman that a bio-male could never even begin to attempt. And I'm at a loss for advice to give her. So I have a few questions.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be. So we have a straight girl clueless of the trans mentality, with a trans-man who has a very hard time accepting that she doesn't know everything, that in fact, she is quite ignorant of it all. Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times.

Sadly, we are dealing with two people who lack a lot of self worth and self-esteem. But, I do believe there is a sense of real love between them, though Daddy seems to disagree, he knows the female party better than I do. But I want to be a good friend for her, and help her. I'm just finding myself at a loss.

I have tried the tough love, get it through your damn head, approach. And I have tried the kind loving approach, neither of which seem to make her see the big picture.

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Thanks BF!

IMO
 

I really like all of what Princess Belle wrote. Wise woman, she is...

I am a gay female involved with a straight bio man who is genderbending towards femaleness. I am still gay. Who I am with has nothing to do with my orientation.In decades past, (and even in today's time!) some gay women and men involved themselves only with opposite sexes, in order to never feel the social stigma of being gay. If they never slept with same sex, and even married opposite sex, that did not change them from being gay.

First, I have also dated several transmen and can tell you that they are just like any other human being. Some are very nice human beings. And yes, some are asses. If he was an ass before his transition most likely and will be one after.

Second, this is THEIR relationship. He makes that decision to be so. She makes that decision to contend with it. You make that decision to try to fix both of them. Since you cant change either one of them, lets look at what and who you can change....you.

Third, YOU. Your friend isnt saying she is struggling, you are. Your friend hasnt asked for advice but you are giving it. She flips back and forth with pronouns, but hun, so did you...

"Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times."

why you doing this? Why are you trying to "knock" knowledge into your friend when they are pacing themselves to who they are, where they are, with each other and themselves?

let go of trying to control them. Love your Daddy. And be at peace...

Why are you the person responsible for their relationship?

No, actually she is coming to me ALL the time with help in this relationship. This has nothing at all to do with control, it has to do with me reaching out for more information to be able to better help them in their relationship.

I would never ever complain about such a thing, and I will completely support her. But I am finding it a challenge, and as a good friend, who is trying to give her all she needs to help her with her questions, and her situations, that is why the post is here.

As a friend, you give advice, you lend your shoulder, and share your own ideals, and situations with them in order to help them when times are hard. This has little at all to do with control. Telling her my thoughts, and ideas, about what she comes to me with is not controlling, it's being honest and open and not sugarcoating everything, because in the end that would only be detrimental.

My kitten, it is nice to see that you chose to post the thread after all.

Princessbelle, thank you for your input. It is very well said and yes, my kitten and I have invited my dear friend to the Planet. Hopefully she will go on to create an account and immerse herself in the numerous informative threads available.

Miss_Tia, thank you for taking the time to read the thread and also post your thoughts on it. However, there is some misunderstanding. I would like to clarify that. Both kitten and I care deeply for this friend of mine. And we happily support her and help guide her.

And though my friend is not stating she is struggling, it is not indicative of her not needing help. If someone is having a difficult time in something and I know them well enough to recognize this, what kind of friend would I be to sit back and do nothing simply because they have not reached out? Do not get me wrong, we are not forcing ourselves upon her. But when my kitten is up at all hours of the night listening to my friend sob in her ear, then yes, we will take that as a clear indication of needing help.

As for the partner's identity, I must admit that it confuses us at times. Said person appears to be confused in a way. Plenty of back and forth and to be honest I feel he still has more growing to do. One moment he is soft butch, then he is male, yet my friend says she. Kitten and I are only now getting to know him. The other night I asked him how he wants to be referred as and he said he. So we are respecting that but I can see how kitten got confused once more. In the years I have had kitten in nuuuuu life, not once has she ever referred to me as "she", largely due to my own security in my identity. Therefore I assure you, she meant no disrespect.


This isn't about trying to control them at all. It is about watching a loved one in a situation where the maximization can be solved.

Thank you, Daddy. Perhaps I'll just tell you what I want to say, and let you post it, your ability with words is superior to my own, of late for some reason. lol. Love you.

welcome to the planet!

for me, as a partner of a transman, i have a hard time understanding the pronoun issue. my partner said he preferred masculine pronouns. end of story. i slipped up a few times on accident when we first started dating but...part of being committed to someone is making a concerted effort to use their pronouns. if it were me i would feel really disrespected and unsafe, so i try not to make my partner feel that way.

i've found it super helpful to reach out to my trans* & genderqueer friends, read books, read blogs and zines, etc.

i think if this person's partner is confused about their identity that is probably not helping and might exacerbate the situation, but still - listening and talking honestly, listening to what the person wants and doesn't want (i.e. in terms of touch, pronouns, etc.) and respecting that is hugely important. everyone doesn't have to have their id figured out to be able to communicate and respect those wishes and boundaries.

i love what princess belle says about how a partner's id is a separate issue and it doesn't change (or have to change) how we id.

Ok, there are a few things here that concern me so I am going to address them one at a time.
I am in purple as usual...

:sparklyheart:

i love what laney said.

i wanted to echo that response to the "love" issue - to me, love, at least in a relationship, requires some sort of commitment. it's not enough to get caught up in the honeymoon feelings. if you are in a relationship with someone loving them means being committed at least to being empathetic and compassionate towards them, and to not making them feel disrespected and unsafe (or at least putting in the effort). so - being caught up in the warm fuzzy feelings is awesome, but it seems like there's not a lot of feeling of responsibility to the partner here...and that i find kind of disconcerting.

I agree! And it seems to be coming from BOTH sides. But I do not think it is based in a mean way, I think it is because he does not yet know himself and she does not know how to make his journey easier because of this.

:sparklyheart:

Just some questions (they don't require an answer) and thoughts that came to mind......

Why are you giving her advice? I rarely ever give anyone advice. I can tell them what I feel or think or question about a situation, how I would act in that situation, but that is the extent of it. I rarely ever say 'I think you should ______' (I am probably nitpicking the meaning of advice)

You seem to be putting more effort in her relationship than she is. I'm thinking it should be the other way around as others have said. To me, it speaks volumes about her real interest in her partner/boyfriend. A pro-active role in understanding the many facets of a person is required.

I also think that at times folks have a tendency to pigeon-hole someone. He is much more than a transman. For a relationship to work folks need to focus on the individual rather than the label/id. Seeking general information about trans folks is also a good thing.

edited to add cuz I forgot it:
I"m wondering why he is in a relationship. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do himself....it is hard to do that in a new relationship

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

If I had someone who was calling me and crying to me hours at night, I would wonder why they are needing me so much and if I am the one to answer their needs at all. And I would then examine why I am buying into this neediness. What purpose is it serving me??

Frankly, by the way its being described, I think its all overboard, both in the primary relationship, and in the way its being handled outside of the relationship

I have friends...with whom I have deeply rich, long term, even profound friendships. When my friends go thru bad times, I am there for them but not when I shouldnt be. Sometimes being a sounding board or a shoulder to cry on is actually detrimental. To both the crier and to the "shoulder". Sometimes what they need isnt me...

to personalize it....If my sub had so much of a problem with me and was sobbing about how bad the relationship is over and over again, to someone else, 1) I would want to know why he was still in a relationship with me, since no one makes you a victim unless you put yourself in those positions (I am not talking about abuse here. Abuse is a different matter and thats all about hostage taking)

2) If my sub had no clue about our relationship dynamics and my "label" as a Being, why isnt he investigating, researching, getting involved, etc. so that he can know what loving and respecting me entails..not to mention doing so for himself!

3) If he "loves" me but doesnt know me, then I am gonna really suspect that there isnt love there but neediness. This is a pet peeve of mine..people who proclaim love LONG before it is a true factor. When people do this, it means there is a hole inside them that they want someone else to fill. This, is the ugly D word. Dependency. If I let our relationship continue when there isnt real love established, its not just his fault, its mine too, and so then its on both of our parts and thats called CO-dependency.

one more thing

Imma gonna end by saying this: those who try to fix other people's relationships, don't. In fact, often they either make it last longer than it should, or sometimes they make it break up sooner than it should, if at all! I am not suggesting we shouldnt be there for friends who need us...but needing us as friends and being needy as a friend, are two separate things...one is about love, the other about dependency.

When it comes down to it, the TWO of them will have to figure it out. There is no book, friend, forum, etc that can do that for either of them.

Perhaps the journey will be a great growing experience for each!

Well-wishes!

i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.

Hi Toughy,
When we speak to her in regards to the matters she brings us, it is rarely ever in a manner of... 'I think you should do this' and so forth. The only exception to that has been our suggestion to join discussion boards (such as this one) and read up on a lot of the information that is available to the public. And as far as the person she is seeing, I have considered the very same thing. In speaking to him there are plenty of red flags that I have picked up on but am not getting in the middle of. Everything we speak of we simply answer questions she directly asks us and other times we're just there to listen.

I am certain that the very reason she turns to us is given the slight similarities in our circumstances. My kitten was very much a heterosexual woman who only dated cis-gender males until she met me. So she feel s as though we would be the best people to turn to in regards to her questions and such.

The first time I dated someone trans, I had a real problem acknowledging 'she' was a 'he'. I was a lesbian goddamnit! And lesbians didn't date men.
But I couldn't help myself, he was so amazing that I couldn't stay away.
It didn't help that at the time he was going through a period of discovery himself, so didn't have the confidence to fully come out.

I barely knew anything about trans, so it was invaluable to me that he took the time to talk everything through with me, to answer all of my questions, lend me books and even show me a video. It was an eye-opener which would never have happened had he been the sort to take my ignorance personally.

The second time I dated someone trans I thought I was down with the kids, I thought I knew. Of course I realised how ridiculous that was about a week later, particularly when I remembered that I was a lesbian.
Luckily my husband was happy to talk to me about anything and everything and even argue with me on occasion when our cultures clashed.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

It's not important. What's important is she care about her partner and try to meet his needs and he do the same. In time she'll either learn on the job or he will terminate the relationship.

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She's probably trying to square up the two realities. If she's had a straight life up till now, none of this will fit the world she's been living in for most of her life. In time everything will start to make sense or else he'll get fed up with her and leave.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The two of you have different partners, different relationships. Understanding your relationship isn't necessarily going to help her with her own.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

If he is not able to be a patience and tolerant educator, than she is not going to learn. Simples. He either needs to grow up or give up. Her 'manipulation' is probably the only way she knows how to defuse the situation. He feels bad, she gets a break.

Well said, Quin.

Thank you everyone for your comments and input. In a brief discussion forum such as this, many details are being left out. She leans on me, perhaps too much, as it has been stated, because she finds me someone who can relate to the questions she has.

I don't feel you need to become an 'expert' on something like this, to be with someone. But when it is a completely new experience, I believe anyone who was not born with the inclinations, finding themselves in 'new' territory, researching, to understand is very very important. I know, that partly it was my need to understand the obstacles, my partner faced on a daily, basis, that he couldn't just come out and explain perfectly, brought us closer, it solidified out understanding of each other.

Most are right, the ID of someone, should not be so focused on in a relationship. But you have to remember that we are discussing someone who has entered completely new territory. And having been the straight girl, who fell madly in love with a trans-man, without it having been something I was born with the inclination to, to more fully understand it naturally, I found my own self identification important.

We aren't talking about just a label, or the [B]definition[B] of what someone is. We're discussing daily trials and tribulations, they go through. Such as, with Daddy, he has the looks to contend with. Not something he would have really just brought to me, but it was something that educating myself, I was able to understand, to better support him during these struggles. Intimately, it allowed me to be curious, and ask him detailed questions about what he was comfortable with, and what he wasn't comfortable with.

All in all, it became something that led him to really trust me, lose the fear of 'what if the straight girl doesn't want me' and replaced it with awe and appreciation because it showed him how important even the little details of his life, were to me.

There is never a cut and dry answer or reply to anything, in a relationship. Be it straight vanilla or kinky trans/bi/gay. But when so many transmen and transwomen deal with so much, that isn't easy to just make common conversation of it, this can be integral in much of the understanding we need to have to be complete partners.

As for helping, hindering, or postponing the inevitable in their relationship, I just want to say that my reasons for even beginning this thread, was to find people who may have experienced something, that I intended on bringing her to this thread to read, and learn from herself. Just as we all learn things from such writings, or even ramblings. I don't have the advice, or the help I wish I could offer her. That is why I am here. Though she is reaching out, and I remember reaching out as well. So to anyone who may agree or disagree, that is all this is about. Understanding, or hearing of anothers' experiences, is not advising someone on how to run their relationship, it is expressing an understanding, and hope that they will find something positive, to take out of it, that will help them.

Once again, thank you everyone for the replies.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=976

Here is the link to the SOFFA thread I was talking about, she may find some help with her issues around what she is feeling there.

Agreed.

I read/research because I will *never* understand what it is like to be butch, stone butch, trans etc. I am a femme who looks like a straight, vanilla world soccer mom. As such, reading about another's life, journey etc allows me to step into their world-over and over for as many times and worlds as I can find. I love to get into someone's mind and find out how they think. For a variety of reasons, you cannot always ask as many questions as I have.

If reading/research is how someone learns, then that may be exactly what they need to do.

Additionally, reading allows you to reflect and absorb at your own pace, it gives you new questions to learn answers to and you do not have to concern yourself with how a book is going to react to your desire to learn more.



:sparklyheart:

I think that it is actually highly beneficial to "research" things about your partner and aspects that are critical in their lives. I know some people have mentioned that it isn't important to research their partner and such but I respectfully disagree with that notion. Specially when it comes to entering unknown terrain... smiles.

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

I understand what you mean, in truth when I met kitten I was a bit lost on the subject and unable to find discussions on it. I actually had very long discussions with her when we first met. A learning experience for us both which was quite wonderful.

Corkey, see Deviant Daddy's post above. The amount of conversation that I have seen at online BF sites about femmes putting effort into understanding transmen has been much greater than the other way around. To me it seems quite lopsided. What partners discuss in private I would not be privy to.

Corkey I am lost at this point as to what you are saying. I think we should leave it at our perceptions are very different.

Corkey, I have clearly differentiated private conversations between two individuals and discussions I have observed online. I agree with you that anyone wanting to get to know someone should do so with respect irregardless of how someone ids.

I do think websites such as this do offer a lot of information for all of us, including people new to our community and someone wanting to learn about trans, butch and femme issues could find a lot of great information and people here, so it's a great resource to point people to.

My only motivation was I don't think femmes should have to do a majority of the research and accommodating, whether their partners be trans, butch or anything else. There seems to be a big discrepancy that I have observed over a long time being on these sites. This is my perception. I am not challenging your perception.

I guess I'm not clear on what it is about entering into this relationship that automatically "queers" your straight friend? Maybe the relationship "straights" her new boyfriend.

Afterall, gender and sexuality are not the same thing. An FTM may be queer, but he is not queer necessarily.

Thinkin'
 

kitten,

I hope that you are kind and patient with your straight friend who just found herself on a roller coaster ride of the gender spectrum/queer/non binary/who am I now path...

She's a woman who before probably had no clue what *trans* was, queer, transitioning, and all the other things that one stumbles onto when they begin to date someone outside of the heteronormative..

Some good reading material:

Gender Outlaw : Kate Bornstein

Transgender Emergence : Arlene Istar

Transgender Warriors: Leslie Feinberg

I also hope that during this difficult time the gentleman who is dating your friend does some self reflection and realizes that it's not just about him him and only him.

It's now them...

He too should be patient and be able to communicate what is going on, what to expect, what changes will happen etc etc.

If he's not ready to do so, perhaps they should not be in a relationship till they both figure out who they are and who they aren't..

I would give her the names of the dash site, and now this site so that she can read and soak up all those gender conversations that have been had and continue to happen to this day.

She may not fully understand the mentality of a transgender mind, that is something we may never be privy to, but we can be patient and understanding as long as the same is being returned.

It reads selfish on his part that he expect her to do all her homework on him, his gender confusion, his journey. Relationships are a two way highway and he has to be just as invested into her new journey into something she has probably no clue about... It was also disturbing to read that manipulation was going on.

I wish them both luck, perhaps they can go and get some therapy with a gender therapist who could be the mediator for questions she has and her asking them without her boyfriend getting all offensive.

She can't learn about him and what he's going through if he's going to deflect all the issues within him onto her because of her curiousity..

I wish both of them luck and you too sounds like you are trying to be a good friend to her..