Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet
 

I don't use the term 'lipstick lesbian' myself, but I thought her point was valid.

i really like this article. thank you for sharing it.

i especially like that she points out the distrust of what we say about ourselves (even after we come out), and the fact that we're held accountable for other people's misconceptions.

"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females. It is a radical and subversive act to continually go through the ritual of beauty in spite of alienation from one group and unwanted attention from another. Being femme will stop being radical once it is seen as valid as being butch is."

I could print this on a t-shirt and wear it every day.

I guess you could say I am a 'Femme' but I don't really feel it. I hide well in the hetro world because of my look, but in turn it can be a struggle in the community. I don't look 'gay', whatever that means. Getting a woman to take me seriously when I ask them out has been an issue because they look at me and assume we don't play for the same team.

My favorite part of this article.


"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females."

I have thought about this topic many times, and would like to share my thoughts. I have talked with many of my friends who unfortunately for reasons unknown to me, have stated that they would not date women who are femme. I do not understand this, but have told them to not judge the women I think are beautiful and who I find very attractive. A femme to me is a powerful woman, she has grace, beauty, class, style, a way of carrying herself which embodies all of the feminine traits. She is something really special, and I admire her for not bending or conforming to society's myth or the gay society's myth of what a lesbian should look like or act like.
I find femme women to be very special and I admire them very much....

We are are superheroes.... Crushing stereotypes left and right, causing straighties to take a second glance and scratch their heads when we casually grab our Butches hands while walking in public. We cause them to question themselves and think about their own misconceptions about the Gay community. We fiercely defend our Butches and our community. We educate and answer ridculious questions. We open people's minds. We are amazing. We are powerful Femme sistas, we are strong, and we don't let anyone forget that! Femme Pride!!! :-D

Thanks for sharing. People do think I'm straight. I like to dance and often attract the attention of men only. There are no gay clubs in Eugene anymore so the lgbt community clubs at queer-friendly establishments. Men are stunned when I don't give out my number because I'm lesbian. Almost all do not know what being femme means. Maybe we can get a femme-visibility movement going?

Thanks for sharing the article Quintease and for all the great responses in this thread. It really bugs me when people talk about how butches/FTMS/trans guys have it so much harder or that femmes have it easy. Femmes have their own issues to face and some that I never encounter.

It is sad but true that even among lesbians that are not butch or femme that masculine seems to be valued over feminine. Femmes are just as lesbian/queer/gay as any androgynous or masculine-looking female. Yes Starry, I agree, you are Superheroes. (f)

I haven't had to "come out" in a awhile

recently we hired a new person and on her second day she and i had a conversation went like this

Her: Are you married?
Me : No its not allowed
Her: puzzled expression on her face..
Me: trying not to laugh, "I dont date men"
Her: backing out of the office quickly

me, im still trying not to laugh about this...

one of my coworkers is gay and he is obvious where as i guess im not...the constant "are you married" question is a big ole pain in the ass...

perhaps when it is allowed...perhaps someday i will be able to say "yes" not only to marriage however to the are you married question.

I like the femme that i am :)

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here :lips:
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

Boy can I ever relate to your words, Lipsticklola! I am in an area that is gay-friendly for the most part, but I still appear to be straight in most situations because I read femme as an older woman. When I'm at gay events, most of the time I feel like an outsider as if I don't quite belong. It isn't that the lesbians (or the gay men for that matter) that I know value masculinity so much as they value androgyny, looking like everyone else, being like everyone else. Many women in this community read butchish but don't quite have the male energy. And others may sort of look femme but they aren't either.

Recently I was told by a butch-type lesbian to stop using labels for identity and to broaden who I wanted to be with. Well, honey, I'm a stone femme. I don't want to be anything else and I only want to be with someone who gets who I am. My preference is for my stone complement. I may be a very, very late bloomer but I'd rather be alone than settle for someone who would try to make me into something I'm not.

Lipsticklola, we femmes have to stick together.

Femme meets Ando ::: I don't eat my oatmeal like that.
 

Again, thank you Quintease for posting this article and starting this conversation. I love her attitude, the exuberance of youth and exploration, makes me giggle, Not the subject matter, but her way of dealing.

I have led a pretty sheltered gay life, as in I have mostly been in the Butch Femme community. Recently I have been branching out and going to different events just to explore out of my comfort zone. I am finding that I am more accepted by my straight community of friends as a high femme lesbian than the andro-lesbian world. I have men friends who I know are interested in me, they have said so. I tell them about my (at the time girlfriend) and they are sad but rise to the occasion with respect and care. Same with my straight women friends (well they don't hit on me). I am out at work, and totally accepted. Now this is Austin.

This has not been true in my ventures into the androgynous lesbian world. One evening I went to a lesbian "book club" where a member was doing a reading from a new book she had written and published. I could not believe the reaction I got. I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I'm like OK (don't hate me) I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. No sumptuousness, no creamy rich butter, no honey dripping over cinnamon, just plain oatmeal. I can accept that they like plain oatmeal, but I find it boring. So we have differences, that's cool. I figure I'll just ask intelligent questions and meet them on an intellectual level. Well I made the speaker so nervous she had to be rude to me to feel in control. Her partner had to say in front of everyone, be nice she may want to buy your book. REALLY?

From this and other experiences I am starting believe that what they are yelling in their conformity is I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a Lesbian. And there appears to be a strict and yes narrow adherence to a set of standards that must be followed to be accepted in this community. Running to much male energy or too much female energy means your not one of the pack. Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme. Now I'm going somewhere with this so don't judge me. I could tell that I turned this author on, because she was all twitchy, she had a hard on and I was making her have to deal with her nasty masculinity in front of people who would judge her for it, and her partner who looked just like her, while she was trying to sell us on her book. So she was rude to me to deny the whole situation.

Case in point 2:
I was dating a lesbian boi who likes feminine women. But all the women she had dated were "lesbians" not high femmes. As a femme I am not going to pretend I don't like that nasty man thing your strapping on. I'm going to "put it down", cause I like that kind of sex. She felt her male energy full on for the first time in her life. She was talking about getting a sex change. And the things she was feeling scared her. She was online with a bunch of andro-lesbians and put herself out there like the freaky boi she is, and talking about likening to blindfold people and tie them up, and let me tell you, that went over like a ton of bricks. Next thing I know she's denying any love of her male energy, saying passionate wild sex is cold, and eating plain oatmeal with the rest of her friends, and saying Amen. But she fits in perfectly now. WOW, that's some social pressure!????

From these and a few other experiences the only thing that I can figure out as to why Femmes are treated the way we are in the andro community is this: Feminine energy is a powerful thing, especially when expressed with out inhibition. It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men. And the all out feminine energy represents a sell out to men, or a lushness that arouses the male energy. All of which appears to be taboo. Have I lost my mind, or does any of this make sense?? I'm really trying to understand my experiences.....

Pashi (the Drag Queen Parrot)

Passionaria, you're bringing the Word. This is exactly what I've experienced here. I long for my own kind, to be validated by them.

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.

My Xg/f had never been with a femme lesbian before, all of her previous relationships had been with very androgynous (in appearence outwardly) lesbians. There was a period of time that I felt she was quite uncomfortable with me, then there were times I felt like she reveled in it, I let her be her strong beautiful self, but then when I wanted to, I was just as strong and anything but the femme I appeared to be on the outside, such as changing the oil in my truck, I used to sneak and do it, LOL
All in all, I believe this was a core issue in the demise of the relationship.:seeingstars:

Sometimes I still just want to scream, why, why, why???? can't we all be happy? :hangloose:

good article, thanks.

Yes, a lot.

I kinda had that, but in reverse. I felt very strongly about my femme ID once. It was my ID and had nothing to do with anyone I dated, Femme was who I was. Only then I dated a woman who made me feel like being femme was a cage. There was something about her that made my femininity ugly and dirty and an obligation. It was only after our relationship ended that I realised her ex before me had the same experience and also rejected the femme ID while with her.
It was probably a good thing as then I met my husband and a femme identity would have been obsolete anyhow.

Perhaps if it can be activated it can also be deactivated.

I don't doubt that at all, but it wasn't cool to be kinky in this bunch. The need for conformity shouted that, to me anyway.

<3 Pashi

I enjoyed the article and agree that as a femme lesbian I do need to continually "come out" unless I am with my crew-cut butch and then it is pretty clear what I am.

During my last hospitalization as she would walk the halls with me trailing my IV pole and holding her arm, I saw recognition wash over the face of everyone passed or if they came into my room and saw her- they knew right away I was a lesbian. I liked it because I did not need to say a word and I was instantly out.

I personally would rather keep this thread on the original focus and point of the article, than turn it into one on some androgynous lesbians being intolerant of the butch-femme dynamic.

It always makes me very uncomcomfortable when I see that happening. Butch-femme is a small minority within a small minority and generalizations always bother me. I am not discounting anyone's own personal experiences.

I personally would rather hear about how each of us continually need to come out as invisible femmes, than becoming negative about other lesbians not into our dynamic.

I have been out for some 34 years. I have had relationships with a femme, butches and androgynous lesbians. It is the fault of no one that what rings my own chimes are butches in general and at this point in my life, my love, my butch; in particular.

Why anyone of us are turned on by the butch-femme dynamic can't be explained, it just is.

My lesbian androgynous sisters not into our shared b-f dynamic still deal with the same issues that we do as lesbians in general and for that reason alone, I personally do not feel comfortable focusing on how they may or may not feel comfortable with strap-on sex. For me, that would be another thread entirely.

I actually 'came out' again this past weekend to someone I'd known all my life, the look on their face was pure confusion.
Sigh......:vigil:.....Just keep on shining in my own way I guess!

From the butch perspective this provided me with an interesting learning experience as well.

Given my appearance I am pretty much never mistaken as straight. I am accustomed to being instantly categorized whether for good or for bad. When we would walk the hospital together it was just those same old looks as far as I was concerned.

I first started to realize what she was going though when I would return to her room and someone else was already there. Sometimes if I would step out to check on something, or get a meal I would come back and there would be somebody new talking to her. Whether a nurse or doctor or someone else, there would be this big double take when I would walk into the room.

They would be looking at her and talking with her and glance over to see me. At that point you could practically see the gears start turning in their heads. They would look back at her and give her that second evaluation look. Then the lightbulb would go on.

They were extremely good about treating us as a respected couple. But it gave me a chance to see that she does in fact operate under a cloud of assumption that others place upon her. I don't know what went on in these people's minds as they reassessed her. But it was clear to me that that was what was going on.

It was good for me to see this. I guess I just always thought that it would be easier to select who did and did not know, and have the option of passing.

I think about it a little differently now. I can see where having everyone assume that you are something you are not and having to constantly correct them if you want them to get it right would be cumbersome at best.

No answers here, just an observation.

I continue to be impressed with all of the femmes out there, but this one in particular.

:balloon:

I crave being out and proud...yet unless partnered, I am invisible. I am automatically considered straight and I assure you I am not. In fact, often I have to assure potential partners and wayward males that I am not.

There was a time that I changed my look to fit in, to be able to be a LESBIAN...but I did not fit in. Turns out you can change your clothes but it doesn't change you. I looked ridiculous and more importantly, felt like I was in logger drag. I wanted to just be who I was but thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I was a faker, maybe I was confused. I was constantly asked by my friends (who didn't understand it any more than I did), "If you like girls that look like guys why don't you just date guys???" I had no idea but that thought wasn't appealing at all.

My life changed when I found a community of Butch/Femmes. Forever the loves of my life. I was like a kid at christmas...and probably acted like one too...lol. I put back on MY clothes and my lipstick, and my confidence...I still have no answers as to why but I now know exactly who I am. I may not always be "out" but I am always proud.

And I am grateful for you all...

I understand where you are coming from...I am not ashamed to admit it took many years for me to come out as a butch. The women I dated and the women who were my friends were adrogynous, I had no clue about femme women. Oh how ignorant I was to the Butch/Femme community...I finally met a femme woman who brought me out and showed me another facet of my true identity. When I finally stepped out I realized how much I was missing, how comfortable I felt in the B/F lifestyle, I prepared myself for what I knew would be the backlash of identifying as a proud butch.
I am honored to wear the Butch badge, just as I hope my Femme sisters are proud to wear their badge. I feel that the lesbian community needs to be educated, I am willing to step forward and do my part. I believe we teach others how to treat us, yes there are going to be some who no matter what will not appreciate or like us, but if I can teach just a few, maybe they will be able to educate others.
I am only one, speaking about my own feelings, I would never claim to speak for anyone else.....

Absolutely! We femmes ARE usually invisible when unpartnered, which is so frustrating. Several femmes together can look like a group of straight women. Going to a "lesbian" event as a solo femme....eek! I stick out like a sore thumb. The looks I get feel like "What's with the skirt?"

This is not new. When I first came out of the closet 25 years ago, I tried to fit into some type of lesbian classification. Back then it was sporty dyke, hikin' dyke, granola dyke, baby dyke, etc. (Pardon the use of "dyke" if that offends you--that's what we said in my part of the world back then.) It always felt weird and unnatural. I still never purchased Birkenstocks, but I did get some Tevas. LOL Then later when I discovered the butch/femme world of the early 90's...woo hoo! It was like coming home. There were so few of us, but I didn't care. I'd found my femme identity. It has gotten a little bit easier in "Mainstream Lesbiana" in the last 20 years, I have to say. But that's due, in part, to societal improvements, as well as the growth of the LGBT community. Hooray for all of it!

And now I just hope for and push for a better recognition of femmes who are unpartnered, like myself. Short of a giant forehead tattoo.....I like the suggestions on the Femme Flagging thread. :)

Since I was personally addressed because of my post, I shall respond in kind. I generally prefer to do it in a pm but again, since the post was addressed to me specifically, I will post my response here.

Pashi, I was not uncomfortable hearing of your own personal experiences.

What I did state, without calling you out personally in my post, was that generalizations made me uncomfortable!

Besides generalizations about androgynous lesbians, there felt to me, a judgmental tone to your post that yes, did make me uncomfortable and I quote:

"I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. "

You, yourself, acknowledged that you were generalizing:

"Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme."

One of the insults some straight men (not all) have always liked to throw at lesbians is that we hate or dislike men as the reason we are lesbians.

I expect it when I hear it from them but did not expect to see you use that same old tired myth that lesbians dislike men and that is why we are lesbians. Your post also included this:

"It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men".

We have no idea what their issues with butch identity are but to say that many of them dislike men? That is part of that old myth about lesbians.

The intent of the article was about the need for femme lesbians to keep on coming out due to our invisibility.

That is one issue that all of us as femmes/ femme lesbians can relate to.

I just do not relate to the need to put down, be critical or hostile towards lesbians or dykes that are not into the butch-femme dynamic or who chose to live their life in a more androgynous manner than I do.

Some may have been rude to femmes from a lack of understanding. It has happened to me. I just accepted that we had differences and found my place in our community.

I still think it is a large enough community to have some sensitivity and understanding of those issues that we have in common with all dykes and lesbians: a lack of tolerance and acceptance by the society at large.

I can love the butch-femme dynamic without needing to be intolerant of those not into it for whatever their reasons may be.

That is how I see it.

I love the word dyke. I consider myself to be a femme dyke. That word encapsulates so many meanings, but when I say I'm interested in butch dykes, people seem to understand what I mean.

"I could literally fingerbang a girl in the street but because I’d do it with glitter nail polish and bracelets clanging, I won’t be viewed as truly, purely gay."

This is so true to me.

My boss recently confided to me that because her boss had hired a close friend (her boss is a lesbian) the whole company would be nothing but lesbians. "You know how they are, if you have one they bring all their friends."

I looked at her and asked, "Really? You're saying this to me?"

Her response, "Oh, I forget."

Well that's just poor manners on your boss's part. Did she say "Pardon me?" I need to learn from others mistakes but this one is kind of yucky. May I never be as yucky and insensitive as Grenade's boss. I wish you :rrose: :rrose: :rrose: :) and peace.

It is a radical and subversive act to continually go through the ritual of beauty in spite of alienation from one group and unwanted attention from another. Being femme will stop being radical once it is seen as valid as being butch is. But for now, I choose to celebrate my girlyness and my gayness. I choose to say that getting gussied up is as essential and important to me as my queerness is, and that I wouldn’t give up either to become culturally comprehensible or belong to some imagined club. That would be the real tragedy.

I came out again almost two years ago. No on believes I'm not bisexual, even my kids. Straight men like me a lot but I'm not interested in dating men ever again. I was with men by choice, for children and the sight of a butch woman broke me of my habit. I was considering being poly with a couple, saw her and suddenly never wanted to have sex with a man ever again. Men could give me babies but truthfully were a substitute for butch women. As I'm learning now, a Daddy.
What's a femmilicious babe to do? There is this weird stigma against femmes by some women (lesbian and straight) because we have curves and proudly display our finesse in life while dancing in 4" heels. And I don't do make up except perfume and lip balm. I love being a vibrant radiant beauty (even though I'm missing teeth). I have lived this way since 14 and will hot tub with, pick flowers with, dance in bra only by the light of the moon with, giggle with, swim in open waters with, cry with depth and love with euphoria all women until the day I die. That's just how this babe rolls. And obviously my sister from another mister, the author of this article.
I initially read a few paragraphs and for some reason didn't like it. I'm so glad I gave the piece another peek.
Anyways, I have writing to do...

Still trying to figure things out.
 

Hello! This article really spoke to me, on many levels. It made me take a deep breath, sit back and examine my own feelings of invisibility and inability to somehow find a "niche" where I fit in.

I was raised Mennonite, and always "knew" women's role in life and in the family. What I didn't realize, until later on in life, was that trying to live that role, would be not only extremely difficult for me, but damned near impossible.

My parents were strict and we girls wore dresses. The only time pants were permitted, was when it was cold out, we were going to be out in that cold, and even then, we were only permitted to wear them under a skirt or dress. Things changed in my teen years, but I've always felt most comfortable in a dress.

When I realized I was gay at age 30 (took me a long time to figure out why I just didn't seem to like men..lol) I not only knew why the knight in shining armor of my girlhood dreams, was always a girl, I also realized why nothing ever seemed to click for me. It seemed like I was always one second behind, one moment behind and I was missing out on so much.

I was excited and terrified and horrified, all at the same time. I was gay. For some, realizing that is a relief. For me it was like a "light bulb" moment, and then I was devastated. You can't go 30 years through of life, being taught that homosexuality is a sin, then realizing that you are gay, without paralyzing and crippling fear grabbing hold of your throat and ravaging your soul. But eventually, I was able to grasp the reality and over time, learned that I am perfect, just like any other creature in God's creation.

So, it was with great excitement, that I stepped "out" not only to my family, friends and church (I got kicked out..lol) but I was stepping into my "niche" the place I had been longing for, for my entire life.

What I got, instead, was a slap in the face. No one believed I was gay. For a long time, not even my family would believe it. When people saw me, they saw ME... the mennonite.. the sunday school teacher... the worship leader... the "shore" girl... and in the gay community, I was straight. I wanted so badly and so desperately to fit in, that I stopped wearing dresses, stopped being "girly" emotionally, (stopped claiming to be a christian.. another topic)stopped doing what came naturally to me and started "acting" gay. I was welcomed then, with open arms.

But, once again I felt like I was one second too slow, one moment behind and I began to rebel against all of it. I started doing all the things I used to do, and when I did, I was accused of "going straight." So, once again, I allowed myself to be drawn back in to that world, to that society. I eventually met and became involved with a woman in a relationship that lasted over 5 years. Every time I would move back to anything that even closely related to who I was before, I would get an instant reaction from my girlfriend, which always started and ended with the question, "are you going back to men?"

There were other issues within our relationship (her belief that monogamy is for straight people... again another topic) but this one always seemed to be the "hot spot" that would result in fights, arguments and me always backing down and conforming. I found out that iking butch women, meant that I really wanted to be with a man, acting too femme meant I wasn't really gay and finally, one day, my mind just screamed and my strength finally woke up and said "hello!"

I became determined to be who I felt I was, to live how my heart told me to live. Yay! End of story, right? Afraid not.

When I stopped allowing myself to be influenced by the "non B&F" lesbians, I started doing what I had and wanted to do. When someone found out that I built a deck in my ex's back yard, I was butch. When someone found out I had designed and sewn my god daughters christening gown, I was femme. The roles of butch and femme, seemed to me, almost as rigid as the "non B&F" lesbian roles. So, I started to identify as androgynous, simply to stop the whole "argument" of butch or femme. Once again, I felt out of place.

Finally, one night, while laying in a hospital bed, I just had myself a talk with God, Jesus, and myself. We all agreed that I was exactly who God had created me to be and no matter what others thought about me, I was a woman. Period. I was a woman who was a nurturer, a woman who could build a deck, a woman who could fix things, cook things, grow things and a woman who was femme. A femme who is drawn to butch women. A woman, who could still be a christian, a wife (and a "husband" when needed) and even a mother (not yet..lol). I was someone unique, and while I may never fit into someone elses "niche" I could and have, created my own.

Now, I have found my "niche". I have found the place I truly fit into and it's one I treasure and one that has an open door with a welcome mat. While I will always proudly identify as a lesbian, I also proudly identify as a non-comformist.