Negotiating Silence
 

I think this is a great discussion to have. I guess for me being "silenced" isn't the word that resonates with me. For me, it is "invisible." I feel invisible a lot. I feel invisible when people assume that because I ID as male, that I take up too much space and alienate female ID'd people. I read posts where masculine /transmasculine people are lumped together and talked about, and blanket statements are made about them. Then I hear people saying, this is our discussion, and although we talk about you, you don't have a right to be a part of this discussion. Ouch.

What I want people to know about me is: I am a sweet guy who respects everyone's right to proclaim who they are and speak their truth. I believe that everyone deserves to be respected and listened to and taken seriously. I believe that I do my very best every day to be respectful and kind and a good listener, and to give everyone the space and voice that they feel they need and deserve. I am not someone who ignores someone else's point of view and assumes that I know it all and have nothing to learn. I am very aware that there is a lot that I need to learn, and I try very hard to listen to people and understand where they are coming from.

When someone doesn't see this about me, when someone assumes I won't understand, when someone lumps me in with other people who are disrespectful just because my gender identity might be similar, I feel invisible. I feel just as invisible as when someone calls me "ma'am" or "miss." It feels just as icky, and maybe more since it comes from within the community I love and feel at home in.

What makes YOU (the collective you) feel invisible? I want to know what everyone else feels, and what they would like people like me to know about them.

Thanks for starting this thread Superfemme. :)

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;18538]"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel this (above) goes along with the idea that no one can make you feel bad unless you let them. So logic would deem that no one can make me feel good unless I let them. Why is it when people do things that make us feel good, it is ok to feel good? But not when people are mean to us?


I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

Perhaps so many are silenced so often and in so many ways. Anything that comes close to past experience, hits to close to home

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

This is wonderful. It would be, I would think, easier to post from the privacy of ones own home, rather than a face to face discussion. I have to say, that about 98% of the time, when I read that a post is being reported, or if someone is being called out by others, I have to reread. I don't tend to paint others with a negative brush. I tend to function from the premise that others are also engaging in a positive way and not trying to be mean. But then I do not see what goes on off the treads in pm etc. I have to wonder how much "silencing" is going on behind the scenes?


What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

I don't feel silenced on line. I often choose to not engage due to the negativity. When people start pulling things apart, turning it into nitpicking, thinking their point is right rather than their point.
There has been debate other places about saying : I don;t see color" I completely understood the logic. But I was floored, struck dumb actually, on Sat when my new African Amercian co worker stated: I do not see color.
I was SHOCKED. We had a good discussion. The point here is, when we speak, we may speak for our selves, even most of a group. But we are not speaking for everyone. I think when you insist you are right, that can be silencing to others.

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?


You asked LOL
1) understand that not everyone has the same ability to put their thoughts into words. (and this has 0 to do with intelligence) So be gentle and understanding. Ask questions.

2) realize that others have different views and that not everyone will agree with you.

3) Understand that each human has hundreds and hundreds of character traits. It is not possible to find someone who will agree with you on everything.

4) the more we divide ourselves, the more we hurt each other.

5) spend more time focused on what we have in common rather than what makes us different.

6) start realizing most people are good decent folks doing the best they can in life.

7) realize some folks need a cause, a battle, a challenge, a debate

8) make an effort to take people seriously, believe people when they say they are not trying to be negative
(cause ya know, no matter what the words say, when we read we add the tone, snark etc.)

9) when folks say: I am not trying to be "whatever" and people come back and say yes you are, it can really be fustrating, which can lead to people snapping.






I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

funny I wish more people would be silent, but they rarely tell me to be silent.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

Ok but this kind of example is an orange, not an apple. I am talking about when people who are not transguys or male ID'd talk about male ID'd people and lump them into one group and say that they dominate the space, etc. I read that and think to myself, gee, that may be true of some guys, but I know that isn't me. So that's not fair. I have seen this in more than one thread on this site, and I have seen other things like it said too. I understand that some guys are stupid and don't see other people and consider them. I understand that some guys are misogynist pigs. I see that behavior and cringe. I try to call it out when I do see it. Please, don't lump me in with those guys. It's fine to say that 'some men do such and such, and I have this experience with some men', but don't say men do this and men do that... I feel invisible when people do that. And then to say, this is a women-only discussion and your coming in here and getting defensive is just an example of you silencing us and dominating our space, etc., well that is silencing too.

I totally get that women, butch or femme, deserve to have their own space to discuss their common experiences and ideas. I respect that and I read those threads as a means of educating myself so that I can be more sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. I generally don't post there, cause that's not my place. The only thing that upsets me is when I read things people say about us transguys. Again, some transguys may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

For me, and me alone, I feel like this...my words may not come out right or I use the wrong word to express what it is I want too. I am not one that is good with oral expression-communication. Just how it is. Instead of me constantly asking others to restate it another way, I just leave. My words or phrases or sentences are taken out of context or the words I use are misconstrued to mean one thing, when in reality they were meant to mean something totally different. For me it is like this :deadhorse: or this :danglecarrot:. Life for me is like :titantic:. I really thought online would be different in a community like this. I am silenced, day in and day out. It is very frustrating. I wish just an ounce of what is inside of me would come to light. Just once. But I know it won't ever happen. That is my reality. I will never have a high corporate job, or be a corporate hot shot. I am not ever going to have that ability. I have to learn to live with what I have been given.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Andrew

gratuitous smiles so this will post. :penguin:

Very interesting thread. There is a lot I want to add but trying to organize it into the best words possible is a challenge right now.



I think the thing that silences me is when I've been told that I'm unwelcomed (not because of a safe space but because I'm a trans guy, a Canadian, a <insert characteristic here>). The most silencing statement was one that said that because I was verbose and took a lot to state something, that a person wouldn't respond because I couldn't keep things more concise and into a sentence or two. I've also been "silenced" because of how I write. It's been suggested that I "talk down" to others. I try to avoid doing this or coming off like this but this silences me to change my language from what I'm used to talking like (I write much like I talk).

Now, does that mean I'm not willing to take constructive criticism and that if I've stated something incorrectly or offensively, I wouldn't apologize or try to learn a new behaviour (vis-a-vis writing style)? No. I'm always willing to learn and do believe that we never stop learning. I do not believe that my opinion is above others; neither do I believe it doesn't have value.

Quote:

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

This is a challenge as we are asking for behaviours to be adjusted and minds to open (we all have prejudices, privileges, lack of privilege, etc.). I believe that it is an individual desire to adjust and see where we may be hindering or how we can help avoid silencing or silencing behaviour. Humans, IMO (In My Opinion), are rather stubborn about learning new behaviour, especially stuff related to cooperation. We have been ingrained with competition for so long that it is part of our language and how we talk.

Can we relearn things we did in Kindergarten and how to share better between each other as adults?




**note: I will not be held responsible for typos and such. Caffeine wasn't fully available at time of writing. Any misunderstandings, misquotes, confusion or similar experiences are due entirely to a slow coffee pot. :cheesy: **

A lot of good stuff has been said already.

What silences me is sarcasm and joking in the middle of a real discussion, where people are sharing honestly, the best they can. Also, self-rightgeous indignation, where, based on one comment, or even a nuance, someone feels they can just jump all over another poster for being WRONG. I would not be inclined to get into the middle of a thread with either of those conditions.

On line is a weird thing to me. I can't see your face, but if I think you're laughing at me or not taking me seriously, then I don't want to play. If you are going to jump on me and judge me before really hearing what I have to say, then I'll tend to shut up. That's my issue, but I'm not apt to persist in those cases. I like to think about things, and be heard when I think something is important, but not enough to step into a river of crocodiles.

On line communities have different characteristics, I think. But, they're all made up of people. I think it's unrealistic to think that any group is going to develop flawlessly, without work and commitment.

For me, it is not silencing to ask that the tone of a thread be respected so that the individuals to whom the thread pertains can interact. I read and hold opinions about lots of topics, but you will see me participating with great caution in a thread that does not have to do with me, personally. I find that to be respectful, and asking the same of others in the threads about me does not seem silencing. It's respecting the diversity of the community.

Great subject SuperFemme! :)

I see many times when because of cultural, geographic or differences in communication styles and plain old reading comprehension people get in a frenzy and report posts that were not meant to be offensive, and in fact, if read in the right tone were not offensive at all. Not so much on this website, but I have seen it a couple of times here.

I think it is important that rather than assuming the worst, we try and look at the whys and the what really was said.

Of course, at the point we are misunderstood, we can choose to feel silenced, or we can explain and apologize. For me, navigating these threads does involve a good bit of apologizing and trying to see things from different standpoints.

Atomic, I completely get and hear what you are saying. There is so much pain and anger around how Butches identify and where the Trans community fits in. My belief is that individual people who have or have had very small views of the world say hurtful things and it gets blown up to affect the entire community at large. I admit I am guilty of wanting there to be a place for woman identified Butches, because when my G/F joined B-F and met people in person she was told she was not allowed to be called she and that her name would have to be changed to Sydney or Chris. She chose to remove herself from the issue and stay off the threads which makes me pretty sad. For me, I do think there need to be places where different groups can discuss their own issues...I am particularly enjoying the Femme threads for example.

On the other hand,
When we are together, who cares about ID's unless we are trying to date. :) I wish we could get to that point on line.

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

I suppose negotiations could start by not stating that something is WRONG. No one wants to hear that just as much as the person who is trying to convince that their way is the right way. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to other people's feelings - opinions however - are loaded guns.

The key to tolerance and understanding is remembering that if it doesn't suit you - leave it alone. The beauty of a community is knowing that there are others out there who feel and think the way you do (to some degree). It isn't necessary to recruit others to YOUR (the collective) way of thinking.

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me :cheesy: **

Linus,

I can only focus on 1 thing at a time. I can't focus or multi-task on 10 different things. It may seem to others like I may be ignoring them, but I'm not. I just am not able to do it the way others are. That is why I rely on other folks like yourself and Jack to help me to understand.

Andrew

Yes yes, or if we agree with a post, but do not comment on each an every word of everypost, or respond fast enough...are we in fact ignoring the post and silencing the poster?

I don't think it's silencing to only respond to one point. That may be the point that speaks to the individual responding. It could happen that way in a real time discussion, too. Are you saying that it may feel invalidating to the original poster, that they don't feel completely "heard"?

I have seen people post comments and when no one responds, they come back on with a pouty kind of tone, "No body likes me, why is everyone ignoring me? I'm not a cool kid" thing. I see it on another site a lot (not a b-f type site). I feel sad when that happens, but I don't think it's silencing to not respond to someone. No one should be obligated to communicate when they have nothing to say.

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.

I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion :watereyes: ). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

Yes, the "thanks" button is great in many regards! :)

The only thing that always, or nearly always, silences me - because I'm simply unable to understand - is language that for me, is too 'academic'. Why does it silence me? Because I'm afraid of looking stupid by asking, ''What, exactly, do you mean?'' There, I owned it.

I do believe that in some cases - note, I said some - some folks will use their superior language skills/intelligence/education/whatever as a way of silencing others. I have seen it happen - not here, but on other sites, one in particular - and it disgusts me because it implies, to me, a total lack of respect for others and their abilities, or lack thereof. And please don't tell me I'm imagining this, because I'm not. It happens, it's disgusting, and to me, it's no different to laughing behind the back of someone with a physical or mental disability.

I also believe, however, that some folks simply do not realize that the average person on the street is not capable of understanding the type of language they use. So although what they write might be silencing, they are not, in my opinion, and in contrast to those mentioned in the paragraph above - guilty of deliberately silencing others.

Apart from that? There's not much that will silence me or cause me to be silent. As many, I'm sure, will confirm;)

Words

Agreed!
I have found that people are people. Dumb and stupid to not belong to any one group. Character traits exist across all groups. I have found on threads that are "only _______" space others enter at will. MY all time fav was a newly created butch space that some femmes tried to paint pink.

Quote: Again, some transguys(lesbians, butches, femmes, women, men, children, grownups, governments, straights, poor people, rich people, right wing people, left wing people) may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

Life is just so much easier when you base your opinions about someone on the content of their character rather than how they id, their race, religion etc. Of course this requires more work.

Heh.. no. It's because I didn't respond to all your points in the OP and also didn't address others completely either. Hence, the irony. I think, however, you've done a great job at trying to answer and address points as they come into play. Which, IMO, everyone feel like they have a part in this, are valued for their opinion and are not silenced.

Quote:

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Totally understand and completely get. This is much like me not understanding what it's like to live with being differently abled and others not being aware of the challenges that are added on with that, especially one that doesn't necessarily appear obvious.

Please be assured it wasn't directed at you but rather something that I remember from a previous discussion on a similar topic on an online game (since the premise of the game involved online discussion and politics, silencing was a common activity although it wasn't called silencing) and I've seen elsewhere online. One of the things I've noticed is that when this is done, sometimes two people -- both who have the same view but present it differently -- ended up arguing against each other over the smallest point (e.g., honor vs honour).

Quote:

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

Always a good thing.

My name is adele and I am so NOT here to recruit you! (sorry, couldn't resist)

This is a great post! I wonder if people equate everyone not agreeing with them to not being heard? Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket. The thing is, on the other side of the coin that is not being heard is not listening. Listening means extracting ones POV and being open IMO.