When a Femme meets a Butch... dating advice!
 

OK, I realized today the implications of having done only the "online dating" thing for the past 15-20 years: I haven't dated someone that I met first in person since... 1993?!? No, actually 1998 (very briefly) but still, WAY too long (and I was much younger - obviously). When you meet via an online dating site or forum such as this one, you at least know before contacting each other that you're both single and potentially interested in meeting folks to date. When you meet in person, there are just so many more unknowns!

So today I met a butch (or at least I presume a butch identity, though I have been wrong in the past... so how do I even know that?) who is close to my age, interesting, attractive, responsible, smart, funny.... and it made me realize that I have not the slightest clue as to how to indicate a possible interest or even find out if she's single. We met to discuss my possibly volunteering in the community to help with something she runs, and we met at my job with her coming in uniform from her job, so it wasn't a social call at all.

I'm not even certain that I'd be interested in possibly connecting with her socially, but I still want to figure out more about how to do this - in this day and age, how do you handle it when you meet someone where there might be a connection and yet you don't even know if they're single? If you find out that s/he is single, how do you proceed from there - especially as a femme, and especially as a femme who can be quite bold when her confidence is up but can be super-shy if I'm not sure how my interest might be received/perceived.

We discussed briefly some things that we've seen posted on facebook, including some organizations that we both follow through facebook, and from that I found her on facebook - would it be completely inappropriate to send a friend request? Or is that something that I should leave until I've meet her several more times (which won't be happening any time soon...).

(Good grief, I'm 53 years old and feel like I'm dating for the first time again... UGH!! Clicking Submit before I chicken on on even asking about this!!)

Thanks for posting your question. I feel ya, girl!

I think the biggest best advice I would give right up front is to step back away from thinking about "a connection" and just think about a friendship first. The best ones to end up hooking up with in a "connection" are friends, people who we share common interests with, etc. By thinking entirely of the possible friendship first, it takes a lot of the pressure off (am I saying this right, am I dressing the right way, will she like me, will we end up moving to Hawaii and live happily ever after...oh, scratch that last part, that was just me! LOL)

Of my last several partners, I met two online, one a blind date sort of thing, and one meeting her in person in a group I was involved with. With the one I met in person, we all kinda hung out together, and she and I slowly got to know each other, and it went from there. With my current (and last!) gf, I met her on a singles website, and both of us were really only looking for friendship, like someone to go to a movie with occasionally, or out to dinner. It just blossomed wonderfully on its own, and now we are engaged. Yeaaah!

And don't let your age hold you back, either. There are lots of wonderful women out there. My partner found me, and I am pretty damned special! :hangloose: (she is too!) I am 60, and she is 48.

Good luck!

(and oh yeah, a butch woman in a uniform... gets me every time!)

APG

it cant hurt to ask can it? at least then you will know....even a friendship request on fb, i have met some great people through fb, people i look forward to meeting in real life someday.

so again it cant hurt right?

what do you have to lose? at the very least you might gain a good friend out of this.

Love Dating Marriage
 

Exactly what you said, thank you, thank you, thank you! - and if I have to make the first move to be kissed (old school) it isn't ever going to happen.

Thoughts
 

I suggest if you see one another again to just let it flow, get to know her, about her and find out the things you are curious about, even if it's not a romance it's nice to have a local queer scene to hang with.

Snow said it perfectly, Dance. So did the others.



Great Advice,
Brute.

But here's the problem: How do I get from "I'm a volunteer for the program you run, with very little in-person contact and no reason to assume we'll be social" to a chance to see one another again in a context where I can just let it flow, get to know her, etc.? THAT's what the real issue is here - I have no clue as to how to move it from professional to social, especially if we don't have very much reason to be face-to-face.

First, Mazel Tov for being physically present with someone and contemplating a date. It is worth a LOT these days. You've already done a huge first step. F*ck Facebook.

Second, you wrote that the person is about your age, so they are also used to that awkward time between meeting and finding out if you are available to date. Personally, i find it a loss that "online dating" has made it so people only fiirt with people whom 'the database' has determined to be "single". What a shame, as if people "in relationship" dont need to feel sexy to a stranger once in a while!
I flirt on the subway, at the library, on the street, etc. What else would I be doing? Worrying about work? ummm, no.

And regarding Femme or Butch to make the first move-- this is the 21st century, and boldness is no longer assigned a gender! That's great news! I am a butch who usually makes the first move, and how I long to interact with Femmes who are confident enough to approach me.

So all this say: You go, girl! Decide what you want, and tell that person. You can't lose.
Plus it is HOT.

LOL well, I agree but the problem I face is that right now we only have a professional relationship - it would be very different (in terms of my comfort level flirting) if we had met in a purely social context.

Oh, trust me, if we had a social interaction, and especially if I knew for sure that she was butch, I'd have no problem making the first move. But my concern wasn't about if I should make the first move as a femme," it was that I don't even know if she ID's as butch. I know that I would ultimately find this out once we spent time (once I figured out how to make it possible to spend some time, which is really the biggest issue), and that we might have the potential to be friends if she's not, but I guess once again it requires context - there's a lot of butch-phobic feelings in this community, and how I'd approach a butch would be different than how I'd approach someone who only looked butch but didn't identify as one at all. Or maybe I'm just over-thinking and over-complicating it, because I don't know how to function face-to-face instead of from behind a keyboard!

Something in me says that I just need to start soliciting some donations, go collect those donations, then go to drop them off when I know for sure that she will be there, wearing some femme finery featuring some serious cleavage. If she stammers and smiles, I have my answer to whether she's butch and a reason to suggest dinner. ;)

Ask her out. You already have something in common (the charity group, yes?)
You have her contact info. Trust me, your lips will not fall off your face if you open you mouth and say, "Hey, I really enjoyed chatting with you the other day. It seems we have a few things in common and I would like to get to know you better. Would you like to go out *on a date* next...(blah, blah...fill in the blank as to where/when)".

Also, please use the word "date." I have 3 charities I am involved with plus some serious hobbies. If someone asks me to "get together" at an event involving one of those things I assume it is because they are interested in the charity/hobby as well, not because they are angling for a date.

As to the whole B-F who should ask whom....if you are confident and comfortable initiating the date and the Butch in question finds that a turn-off...well, they weren't the one for you and best find out now.

Good luck...and remember, sometimes the biggest risk of all is not taking one.


Katniss~~

Coffee...
 

Non-threatening.....ask her if you can meet & maybe discuss in more depth the group she has......ask her to tell you more about it.....if the group interests you & she runs it then....perhps a good friendship can begin....moving from friendship to a "possible" dating scenaroi often takes care of itself.....

There is nothing "forward" about a coffee date.....who knows what questions & answers will come up over that cappuccino?....lol....you may find out you really would prefer a frienship & then again...<slow grin>....

Allow the powers that be to flow though you, & enjoy the journey....& the coffee...LOL

Jonathan

Also,
 

I believe that people are brought into your life in various ways & ALL are good. I met my wonderful ex-wife on the old aol B/F chat room....never knew that a few years later we would meet again on line & then meet in person. 10 really good years.....i have also met people on blind dates in my past & currently I am meeting folks in r/t & geting to know some on line...so....explore...it's all good !!!

You can never have too many friends !

Yea, verily I say again: FLIRT FLIRT FLIRT.
Don't let anything slow your game. Do you want to go on a date with her? Make it happen. I don't get the impression that there is some unequal power dynamic, and she isn't your boss or employee, so make your move! She is completely empowered to thrill you or shoot you down.
I dare you.

And on a secondary note: do I need to come down to Delaware and address these "butch-phobic" knuckleheads? Their loss, anyway.

COFFEE !!!!
 

Definitely works to know if someone is interested or you are interested in persuing something more than a friendship. This is how my girl and I started our dates and our friendship, now we are friends and more. :)

Whatever happened to asking around? You must know someone who knows her, or a friend would know someone who knows someone. That's how we've always done it. You can and should ask your contact if she's single before you ask for a date.

I'm not so sure that asking if she considers herself butch would be productive if you live in a place where most people just don't understand what that means, but you can gauge that based on who you're asking. Good luck.

Dear DWM.
You are volunteering with her, not working for her, so it's totally cool.
It's awesome because it gives you more time to talk and get to know each other and send mutual sparks.
Your energy is radiant and you know how to flirt. If you get to chatting more now that the coals are heating up and you want more, I say you make sure you let yourself be known. One of you will make the first move. Unless she's otherwise occupied, and in that case it's sad. But not the only one out there for you by a long shot.
It's exciting, it's new, it's got potential. Make it happen giddy lady!

Squee!
(And I like, never, squee)

Alas, I tried to figure out anyone we might have in common and can't come up with anyone who knows her.

Yeah, this I basically figured after writing about it for a bit. But again, this is what I figure a skirt and cleavage will tell me. ;)


Again, big issue is how do I find a way to make more time? Because right now there's no easy way to create more in-person contact - it would have to be contrived, or I'd have to suck it up and just ask her to have lunch or meet or talk or whatever. (ack!)


You lie. I have evidence of you squeeing. ;)

If I had the time back I spent listening to these angsty convos, . . . . well, I'd have a lot more time. If you do ask her out, use the word "date."

I've always been a big advocate and embracer of the direct approach. I couldn't quite suss out when next you will see this woman. I think you said you are considering or actually planning on doing some volunteer work for an group in which she's quite active, yes? What about simply going up to her as things are winding down and tell her that you'd like to continue discussing what you learned, observed, experienced with "Perhaps we can do that over coffee now if you have the time" approach. That way you at least have an initial platform. You could always slip in the ol' "Unless your girlfriend would mind, of course." tidbit. Yeah, it's a bit cheesy, but it might answer that particular question for you. I know, I know, it's a total throwback way of doing it. I'm just tossing out ideas.

Regarding whether she IDs as butch, how vital is that to you? You like her, are attracted to her, is it of utmost importance because that dynamic, or the lack of it, is not a negotiable for you?

I have been known to approach someone and say, "I find you attractive. If you'd care to know more about that, please give me a call." hand them my card, and leave. I know it's a bit brazen for some, but because it tends to catch people a little off guard it intrigues and it works. As many others have said, I think the technique is much less important than the gesture. A simple, "I would like to get to know you." can do wonders. Really, who doesn't want to be known?

Good luck. Yay, romance.

You said she was on Facebook. What does her relationship status say (or whatever it is called on there)?

LOL yes, my very best friend and I started with me asking her on a date that she didn't know was a date, and then freaked out when she realized that I considered it a date. We still laugh about it almost 20 years later - and I learned that lesson well.


Unfortunately not quite that - she runs the program that I am volunteering to help, but most of what I'll do will not bring me into face-to-face contact with her.

When I first re-entered the dating scene a few months ago I thought I would be ok with someone who was not butch, but I realize that I need that dynamic. I'm not a lipstick lesbian, I'm a femme who needs that butch/femme dance.


She has it locked down private, no information visible.

Shut up you do not.

Go for it!!!!!

Squeeee!!

I think when someone discloses that they're on FB, they're demonstrating that they trust you with that knowledge and understand that it gives you the option of friending them.

I think it would be completely appropriate to send her a friend request.

My only hesitation would be, why is she dropping hints and not being more forthright? Maybe she's just a little shy, no harm in that. Or maybe she's kind of passive, which would not be so fun for you, I'm guessing.

Or maybe we're overthinking the whole thing. Friend her! I friend people I barely know, because we're in the same community or have some other thing in common. It's not such a big deal, to many.

First, i feel like an intruder in this femme/butch space...so, apologies for any offence.
I should be asleep. I almost got sucked into your post once and then i finally did peek in...I think i like your name...dance with me....anyhow.

I thought of a few points that stick out, in my mind and my experience, in regards to your post.

One...you should not have to femme it up or doll up for someone that is naturally attracted to you...in order to get their attention. If that person likes
you they will like you no matter what attire or garb you have on or what you
regularly look like. With this...you will be a natural and you will attract what is best for you and for them.

Two... after a break up of an 11 year relationship... It took me awhile to be involved with someone else or to be forward because i had not dated for what seemed like forever. So, who knows her/hys situation. I did ask a femme for her phone number. However, i took it really slow cause i had not dated for quite sometime. And if she had not asked me in for TEA...i never would have pushed for more unless given that opportunity. And even with that...i was slow to bite. This has to do with being old school and gentlemanly i guess. Also, because of my past long term relationship.
So, i guess, it is kind of odd for a dude sometimes. It is kind of like a respect thing. Hard to explain. Sometimes we wait for various reasons. Sometimes there has to be this "green light" thing from a woman.

Damn i am writing too much. I think the facebook friend deal is a good place to start. Play it by ear too. You may have to be the one to let her/hym know that you are interested and available. However, if she/hy is interested...they will ask...good luck

hand her a card with your phone number on it and a question on the back. How bout a coffee date? and then just walk away. I bet she calls for no other reason than to see what you meant

Coming back to this to say: Because I know you and I know you over-think (And I say that with big love!):rrose:
Just let it happen.
Don't over flirt, over do, over worry, over mastermind the situation.
Just get to know her/hym.
There's already a process in place for you two to see each other on a regular basis. Start there.
Breath, enjoy, take your time.

Dear Miss Dance-with-me,

Hi there! My name is Bleu. We've never spoken but I have just a couple thoughts regarding your predicament.

The first part of your very own signature tag states: "Live as if you were to die tomorrow."

Well this sentiment is exactly how I make decisions in my life. Were I on my death bed and I look back on my life, will I regret _______________.

Will you have any regrets if you don't buck up and find a way to speak to this person in a social capacity? If so, I say...carpe diem. You will have nothing but regret if you don't.

Now as far as the mechanics of actually asking ... well firstly grant yourself the space in front of her (figure it out, this is part of the fun of it) then just let yourself do what we as humans are naturally built to do-- socialize.

Trust yourself. You've still got what it takes to go get what you want and what you deserve. Live by no ones rules but those of your own personal code.

>>>insert :cheerleader:squeeee:cheerleader: here<<<

All the best,
~Bleu

Here's how this conversation should go and QUICK, life is too short:

"I find you attractive and would like to get to know you. Would you like to meet for drinks or coffee sometime?"

Rope--

Urp!! Where's the "smilie" for eyes bulging out then rolling back into my head as I let out a totally freaked-out screech and dive under the covers and pull the blankets over my head over the very thought of being this direct? ;)

FTY, my main hesitation for not friending her on facebook is that her facebook page took some digging to find and figure out was her, and I'm concerned that at this point that might look a little stalkerish. We're exchanging some emails - mostly related to the volunteer work, but with some tiny tidbits of personal stuff tossed in - so I'm going to just let it go there for now.

The storm will give me a few other reasons for asking some slightly more personal question, as I know she lives further inland than I do.

And next week I'll be picking up some donations, and while I won't be able to drop them off until the next week since I'll be out of town, I'm going to try and ensure that she's going to be there when I drop them off, and try to make it at the end of the work day and on a day that I don't have anything else going on, just in case I get brave and ask her to dinner (very, VERY slight chance of my being that brave but might as well set the stage for it).

Perfect. Go for it!

Oh, and I don't do the Facebook thing, but from what I gather if you had to seek her out, it might be kind of creepy to her (friend request).

DER! She lives further towards the BEACH than I do. I live further INLAND than she does.

I agree with the above minus I find you attractive unless hmmm.. I guess for me I just don't jump out that fast. I guess if you want to add that, add it.

"Would you like to meet for drinks, coffee, lunch sometime?"

Like I said a few coffee dates did it for me and my girl then it was lunch and then dinner was it! lol

I also recall an ex of mine taking initiative and asking me to drinks. Nothing wrong and it's darn sexy when a femme leads. :)

Or you could just post about your angst and hear 50 peoples take on said attraction. However you want to word it, if you don't get this person alone for drinks, lunch, coffee, a walk down the street--you're not going to find out if they're single, interesting, crazy, date worthy, whatever.

So hiding under the covers,,,,have at it. Maybe a butch will fall through the ceiling of your bedroom but I'm guessing not.

Rope--

Perfectly said!

Yes, exactly this...especially if you're not sure if she's even a potential dating partner.

Here's the deal...even if she's absolutely straight, I've never heard of anyone objecting to "I've really enjoyed talking to you....would you like to go grab a coffee sometime?"

Once you're having that coffee you can have more conversation, and see if she's even dating potential for you, as well as a little more about her. If not, you may have set the stage for a friendship instead....and that's always a good thing too.