"The Headpat" - A Femme's Place
 

This discussion didn't really feel at home in very many other threads in the zone so I wanted to start one here.

When I think of "headpatting", I think of how there have been times when it felt as if a Femme was expected to "know her place" in discussions, times when Femmes speaking up about their opinions were met with placating and patronizing.

I am interested in hearing from other Femmes about times they have felt "headpatted" by Butches, Transmen, and other Femmes. How did it manifest? How did it feel? Why do you think it happened?

I have had this discussion with a few of my girlfriends over the years but am interested in an expanded discussion.

Have you felt headpatted as a result of exercising a dominant voice? Do you see this as a symptom of sexism? Do you see this as a tool of silencing?

I'll add more in a bit.

not really understanding the term headpatting however getting the jist of it by means of the explanations set forth.

personally I have dealt with this by means of beig silenced and or patronized. This often times is irritating because I have a voice an opinions when this happens I will usually dismiss myself from a conversation and or excuse myself all together from the room. This has happened not only in my community here however also by bio men as well as my gay brothers.

This has also happened with femme friend here in my community where many times I have been expected to or told to "dumb" down so that I become more likeable, I won't dumb down for anyone I'm not sure if this is even a part of this headpatting thing.

recently I experienced some conversations where I wasn't even heard and spoken to as if I had no brain...I no longer speak to that person.

Thoughts
 

I tend to experience this here (online) and via bio men and on a bad day when she's cycling my mother wants to do it. It's mostly when I have something to say that is either an opinion or a correct observation. It pisses me off and when I tend to call the person out on it, the deflection and bull shit back peddling starts.

I experienced it with Femmes more on a academic level, it's hard to pick out if said person can pretty it up with big words.

Either way that kind of shit makes me want to yank someone's hair out or at least that's the kind of feeling that arises when it happens.


I see folks head pat submissives.bottom identifed butches, men, transguys that too is tied to some serious sexism and other ugly shit or with butch women I see it when they have opposite views on hard conversations. It's pretty icky.

I have to commend several butches and genderqueer folk on this site for supporting my voice here. I am not quiet or demure or whatever gender stereotypes would suggest I ought to be. I really appreciate the thanks and comments I have gotten from them over the years -- even when they have disagreed with me.

Offline, I have to agree with Belle, I don't get a lot of it. Sometimes someone will say something "helpful" that is crossing a boundary, meaning I didn't ask for their advice and they don't know me well enough to just offer it without my asking. A look is usually all it takes.

I didn't reveal my age here for a long time because I knew I'd get headpatted. There there, you're not old enough to have any idea.

I'm 28. I've had personal tragedy. I've suffered from illness. I miscarried the only child I was ever able to conceive some years ago. I grew up with a special needs brother and a drug-addict father, my mother doing the best she could. I've loved very deeply. I've lost very painfully. I've travelled. I've lived alone. I've had an education. I've worked hard and enjoyed it.

I may not know what someone else knows, no matter how old they are, but I have my own experiences. I have not welcomed or courted condescending behaviour from anyone, and those who are politely asked to refrain are courteously despatched if they don't stop. I also refuse to condescend to anyone on the basis of age.

Butches, I'm sorry to say, are the most condescending. Sometimes femmes, but mainly within my own local community this happens (it's a femme-eat-femme world here, I'm afraid.)

Suffice to say that although it's tempting, when someone says to me, "When I was your age, chicken, back in the day..." to respond with "SHADDAP OLDZ LOL", I never would. But sometimes... sometimes... I know who I am and I know better than they do, but it would be so terribly satisfying. Swat the hand that pats me, indeed.

Oddly enough I am rarely, if ever, head-patted in my real life. I get the occasional head pat locally in environments that are related to cars, home improvements, etc. Part of this may be because I'm female....and part may be because I truly don't know what is going on most of the time in these areas and it shows.

Tcountry and I laughed about this when hy came out to fix my roof. We were in Lowe's, in the tool section, and hy was about 6 or 8 feet in front of me. No doubt I had a bewildered look on my face, standing there in my floral dress, when a very nice man came up and offered me his card.....general handyman services.

He did not offer one to T.

Is this condescension? It could be seen that way. I prefer to think of it as good marketing and a good sense of who future customers might be. And, yes, I kept his card.

I have NEVER experienced a head pat in my professional work, even though I work with a lot of bio-males, and many people who technically outrank me in the workplace.

Where I have most often experienced it is in our community....online...and most often by femmes.

I think, in part, it's because they don't actually know me. They may have read my posts for years, but if we've never met then they only THINK they know me. I think the anonymous nature of the internet makes people more willing to be rude, condescending, or just plain nasty.

In person, I doubt the same dynamic would be in play.

Having said that....has it happened often here? No. It's been isolated, and only from a very small handful of people.

I prefer to think of it as their issue, not mine.

In real life I encounter a lot of headpatting from bio-men. Whether there's something about my demeanor or my voice, bio-males have always been condescending toward me. It's the attitude of 'aw look, she has an opinion' and everything I say becomes a joke or cute. Most women don't do this to me as far as I've noticed. With bio-men, first comes the smirk, then the voice softens or raises an octave or two, then he speaks slowly to me as if to a child. I know who I am now, but it is frustrating. It caused me to develop all kinds of defensive measures namely my self-effacing sense of humor. I basically learned to beat them to the punch and now it's hard to turn that off. I can be humble and try to be gracious, but truly I'm not weak just because I don't fight back. I will simply assume someone is an idiot and not worth the effort after a few chances. Butches don't do that to me to the same degree, BUT I have felt that many butches make themselves the focus of every conversation. They interrupt me frequently or position conversations so that their thoughts and opinions are the default and everything I say is gauged against the standards they created.

I don't know if that’s just my experience or if there's something I do that triggers that kind of attitude. I refuse to act like someone I'm not just to get someone to take me seriously. I won''t engage people like that. They get tuned out and I lose interest in the conversation.

Lucky for me I am so clueless half the time I do not register snark or head patting online. The only place I can say I have experienced this is talking about religion and that was butches and femmes who did the head patting because obviously I am intellectually inferior because I believe in G-d.

In real time I deal with head patting from butches and cisgendered men on occasion. It does not bother me but does make me sad sometimes. I feel bad for anyone who can't see me as a human being instead of a collection of stereotyped gendered behaviors.

in r/l, whenever i'm head-patted it's typically because i dont, as a rule, tend to be taken seriously in the first place. this is all a huge change for me. 10 years ago it never would have happened.

in a lot of situations i tend to come across as unsure and awkward, at best, and to be reticent in charged situations. i also dont really take myself seriously anymore. less and less so over the last 5 or 6 years actually. i find it unrealistic to expect that people will treat me respectfully if they see that i lack basic self-esteem or that my self-respect is something that resides on shaky ground.

Yes!
 

Why yes, I just did.... Imagine that...:|

i get head-patted rather frequently in real life, although it's often hard to tell the reason (ageism, ableism, sexism, racism). people frequently treat me as though i'm much younger than i am, and talk down to me. i've experienced some of that here, although i've felt more of it here over my age than because i identify as femme. most of my head-patting comes from older white men (and sometimes women) whom i work with. every now and then it'll be from a woman or man my own age or younger.

This is such a salient point from you and Snowy and really speaks to perceived power. (and I don't mean that disrespectfully).
I'll try to muddle through this as best I can - Like, I think about how some of the head-patting I have been on the receiving end of has been from folks who perceived themselves to be in positions of power over me. Either as a Top, a "Daddy", an older person, a thinner person, a more educated person, etc.

How have you addressed this in your own experiences?

I have usually said something along the lines of "You may be a Daddy but you ain't *my* Daddy" and "That's great that you are older and have more experience but this is what *I* have experienced".

I do try to be mindful of my own head-patting stuff when talking to other folks and keep an open mind so that I can always learn from other folks without my own filter of "already know".

I had to ask someone if this meant literally patting me on my head or was I missing something. I was missing something and the butch did not make me feel badly about having asked.

It has happened to me. It has happened so much I did not realize it most of the time. I thought it was normal. I thought it was just the way butches, some femmes, transmen and some cisgendered men behave. I thought something was wrong with me and I must have said something embarrassing or so totally off base others did not want to hear from me. I was so wrong. I am capable, intelligent, kind and respectful. No one has the inherent right to stop me from speaking, thinking, feeling or going anywhere anytime I please unless it s illegal.

How did it feel? It felt belittling, confusing, condescending, anger inducing, crazy making and it hurt. I would wonder what in the hell is going on? Why am I being shut down? Why can the other person say it but I cannot? Why, when my speaking voice is low and kind, am I being told don't speak to me that way? I discovered this is simply the inner landscape of the person speaking and has absolutely nothing to do with me or what I have/had to say. It had everything to do with the speaker.

Has it happened to me here? If it has happened it didn't register. If it has I also look at it this way, I'd rather be happy than right so knock your socks off. I'll walk away and leave you alone with your head patting once I do realize it.

Universe just handed me an assignment, this thread for reading and speaking. I am recovering from being shut down, shut up and told what I said and did was wrong most every time unless it was supportive of the speaker.

Thank you for posting this.

Head patting experiences...

Not many on line. If I feel like head patting is a persons way of interacting with femmes I tend to not enjoy their company and avoid them. Once I believed someone was "head patting" and I addressed it. Often it doesn't register. And I am learning to distinguish it.

In the B-F or larger queer community...
Sometimes but again I avoid the "head patting" folks. I also have very little experience with community (work and parent that's what I do) so that limits my response pool.

from Cis-men...
I get head patting in relation to cars, the weather, driving, fixing things, etc. I can either raise the point of my actual skill level or acknowledge my skill deficits and welcome the advice with a reminder that it is impossible to tell from my female status what I already know.

From other women...
It drives me absolutely batty and happens frequently. It happened recently at work with a woman supervisor. It was appalling and I still haven't figured out how to address it with the actual person. Some women I talk to about it with get it others just dismiss it. As part of what we are expected to put up with. I am trying to understand my very angry response. I'm not ready to address it calmly yet.

Living in the south and in areas where the great white men think they rule you see a lot of this. I don't get it so much and when I do I call it right away. I did have an occasion when I went to a lawyer over a property issue. He was your typical Virginian southern old school man who made the very bad mistake of being condensing and telling me to act like a lady. I stood up and ripped him a new asshole before storming out. Nothing lady like about that!

Within the BF or queer community it never happens.

I guess I have been lucky since I don't have this happen often in real life or ever online.

And to be truthful, when it happens in real life (and never with butch, femme, trans, queer etc) it happens mostly because I want it too... sometimes it helps me to get things to happen faster, when I play the game.

Thoughts
 

In real time, it's easier to address and snip it right away so it doesn't take root and grow.

Here on forums when I do continue to claim my space things such as this happen:

Deflection

Accusations of being a bully

Accused of being a Silencer

I am now going to put you on ignore

Othered (verbiage as some, those, others)

or my favorite they go after weatherboi

At that point that kind of head patting and irrational sexist imposition becomes comical to me and I just watch and let the perpetrator hang themselves cause they generally do cause they just can't help it. It's nice that here on BFP that Femme's are not expected to sit quietly and let the butch/man/masculine folk run the forums. Our voices are just as important.

These are some very thought-provoking questions, Medusa.
Yes, I've had this happen before. Suprisingly, it's been older heterosexual women, more than any other group.

Which for me, was always a difficult thing because I was brought up to give respect to my elders, and to listen and to learn from their mistakes, as well as their experiences. So, for a long time, I would just listen to them, even if they were "headpatting" me on and off throughout the conversation.

But I did listen...and when you just listen and observe..you can learn at a very rapid pace. And eventually, I was taking that knowledge and expanding upon it. Therefore, "the student was out-learning the teacher", so-to-speak.

And then when that same individual (older than me, or not) would try to dismiss me again, I wouldn't whine about it. I would simply show him/her/hym/ect...what I did learn about the given subject...beyond even their scope..and then it usually doesn't happen again, w/ that person. I find this very effective,no matter who it is. I don't do that in a disrespectful or offensive manner, I just simply allow them to see me.

To me, every person or child has a valid voice and the right to express it without being shut down. As humans we all have a unequivocal *need* to express what we feel. A NEED.And that is expressed uniquely through the individual.

I don't know if it's coming from a sexist or silencing position, because I can't read another's history, experiences, trauma's, upbringing...ect. And I believe how we treat others, or how we move through the world, is a mixture of all of those things that make up that person's behaviors.

It's hard for me to get angry when this happens, because when someone's doing that, it says more about them, than it does about me. And sometimes, to me, it can even feel stragely nurturing...depending on the person and the circumstances, of course.

Do I do it, or have I done it?
Hmmmm....I'm sure that I have. But, I have not heard that specifically from anyone, yet.
If I had, I would hope that they would be straight with me, and just tell me how I really made them feel and why, now or later, at some point. It would be a learning experience for me, and I do welcome that.

There is a saying that I always try to keep somewhere in the forefront of my mind:

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

>Maya Angelou

I had this happen to me on the dash site and I just chose not to allow the person who started the head patting, to know that they got to me. I have more of this happening in real time. I grew up in a family that my dad was the boss and my mother and I had no voice. It has taking me many years to get over this and now, I won't allow anyone to silence me. The other day at work, my boss did this to me since my job at the school is *temporary* and some of the employees treat you as such. I finally went to my manager and said, "You don't pay me enough to put up with attitude and shit from these people". I graduated from this college and never felt like they would treat an alumni like this. I almost told them to shove the job and quit but I chose to talk it out with someone and now I will be officially taking it to Human Resources...

Zimmeh

This may not fit in this thread but i wanted to share, i just LOVE Hillary Clinton.


MODERATOR 1: Okay. Which designers do you prefer?
SECRETARY CLINTON: What designers of clothes?
MODERATOR 1: Yes.
SECRETARY CLINTON: Would you ever ask a man that question? (Laughter.) (Applause.)
MODERATOR 1: Probably not. Probably not. (Applause.)

I have totally experienced this!!!!!

I have gotten the "What you don't understand"
"I'll take care of this" (Basically suggesting it isn't my place"
The attempt of trying to talk over my head as if I am a child
Making financial decisions without my input
ETC....

I initially felt angry, because of the idea that I was not smart enough (because I was a "girl) or simply because that wasn't my role. After the anger subsided, I made myself quite clear. I met the other person at the level they were talking at and let them know I could meet them toe to toe with intellect. I would be involved in financial decisions and just because I "choose" not to do certain things, in no way means I "can't" do them!!!