In Celebration of Butch Femininity
 

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

I guess I personally don't see make up as feminine. I grew up with boys wearing it- goth and punk rock, rock and roll glam... Heavy eyeliner and mascara with peacock hair was dangerous and edgy, not gendered....

I do love that smokey, rock and roll, Marc Bolan T-Rex look of black eyeliner on a butch. The unspoken promise of edgy and taboo sex....

Sigh.

Hmm.

I have what barbers call a box cut and a rattail and I wouldn't wear makeup if you paid me, and my wardrobe is certainly not femme in any way. I buy from the men's section as much as possible and go out of my way to not look what I perceive as 'girly'. But part of the reason I.. struggle is the wrong word, but it's the only one my post-gym brain can come up with. Part of the reason I struggle with whether I'm a butch or soft butch or whatever, not that it's exceptionally important but I'd like to know, is a couple of these almost feminine things.
I have taken up lawn bowls. Not exceptionally butch but it is fun and harder than it looks. I balance it out by doing weight lifting. Also much, much fun and so empowering.
I play classical piano. I have no idea where that sits but it is the one thing I will never, ever quit no matter what.
I'm almost a qualified librarian. Make of that what you will.
My biggest dream in the whole world is to have children. I want to get pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. That desire has been with me for YEARS and it's not going away. Is that un-butch? I feel like it's a female desire, but not necessarily a feminine one. After all, as I like to say, getting my period is my concession to being female. I would actually really appreciate people's views on this.

I think that ultimately, for me anyway, my butchness, however much there is of it, comes down to the way I like to present to the world, the way I like to approach dating, and the contents of my fantasies. The way I fill up my life doesn't really form part of that. My brain is mush right now and I think it's not really a black/white issue. Very interesting one, though, thanks for bringing it up.

All of that made sense in my head. Let me know if any of it needs clarifying and I will do it later when my brain wakes back up. Lol.

/Essay over. :o

Thoughts
 

Visual Ideal of what *Butch* is expected to look like, the two more masculine presenting women would be *acceptable* and goo goo ga ga material.

The two women, one on the far left and the one on the right next to the leathered up Dyke are make up wearing more *androgynous* in their presentation and their style they even wear make up kinda butches.



When we dicusss femininity in butches Nat, I am trying to figure out what exactly that means. Clothes, make up, hair, nails are social markers or cues that may give you (general) a hint that a person is ________. I wonder if that is ingrained ideals of what equates butch or if it is our desire that makes us turn our head or do we look beyond the clothing and outer presentation. I get uncomfortable as a Femme defining what is what for other genders, or gender presentation. I am like live and let live and Butch is just Butch regardless if they like pink, make up, or My Little Pony.

I am with HoneyB, this whole if a Butch happens to own a tube of Mac lipstick doesn't influence how Butch is or it should be, Butch like Femme come in so many different varieties of presentation that I just can't see why or how any type of perceived femininity would deter from that, it's confusing only here online.


I only deal with this kind of off putting thought when online, when I go to the bar or out I don't hear the sharp intake of breath in the form of a gasp because a Butch is not presenting or dressing in a particular manner or fashion, what happens is we look, we appreciate, or we make a move.

Butch
 

I love visual aids, here is a great example of a hot butch woman who is in make up, we do ourselves a disservice by dismissing butches for not dressing in a stereotypical manner. At least I think we do.

I am not sure I would define makeup and wearing women's clothing - Butch Femininity. I believe the feminine energy, as does the masculine energy comes from within and not how we dress ourselves.

It would be the same if I wore boxers and lumberjack shirts? Would this define me? (which btw I do and I have).

Years ago when my children were young, I dated a Lawyer who worked at the UN. This Butch was BUTCH BUTCH BUTCH and her energy incredibly masculine. She wore tailored women's suits and makeup. Beautiful diamond earrings and a pendant that belonged to her Momma. I never slept with her though, so I have no idea what her undergarments were. She was a controlling bitch :|

This thread in some ways reminds me of the one nycFem started "Name a way(s) you break the stereotypes of "Butch" / "Femme" / "FTM" etc"

Great thread Nat.

I think the overall responses in other threads about people trying to figure out what ID they are, surely indicates that there is a pressure to fit into some type of box. New folks that I have encountered here tend to be directed to the forum to learn about the different ID's that are used here on this site. They are given a definition of sorts. Once a definition is given they try to fit themselves into one of those boxes.

The thing I have learned over the years is that having boxes we feel we must fit into causes self doubt, because often time no one really fits into the written definition 100%. So, I think they turn to their community and watch people, talk, and try and sort things out in their mind to determine what box they are closest to and adopt that term.

I remember back in a time when "soft butch,"stone butch," and "butch" where the only terms used. I had never heard of transgendered before, and had no clue that was what I was. I merely, knew I didn't fit into what everyone else was using.

I listened over to others, whether butch or femme, make statements about how butch or not butch a person was. They joke around about "butch cards," it's a joke I know and I have been known to joke as well..but I think about what that may say to a new butch trying to find their way. Although, the "butch card" is a joke and doesn't exist..it in itself indicates that there is an expectation of what it is to be butch and if you do not meet it then your butchness is revoked.

People are forced to dissect themselves and weight what is "femme" and what is "butch" in everything they do. Not quite the way life should be in my eyes. Have I been known to observe a person and in my mind think they are a soft butch (or something) and find myself wrong when they ID as something else. Yes, yes I have. Do I sit and tell them they can't be that because of certain things they do....nope I sure don't. If that is how they ID then so be it..it isn't for me to judge.

It could be that my views on what is masculine is vast because of places I have lived. In New England and down into New York and New Jersey you see a great deal of varied self expressions. When living out there I would head to work and see men wearing pink and lavender shirts and so forth. Living in these places allowed me to see men enjoy art, theater, dance, etc., and none of them were ever questioned about their masculinity. Oh and yeah...I'm one of those guys that have no shame in wearing a pink shirt with or without a tie. What I wear and what I do is that the marker of all that I am...it is my character that truly defines who I am.

In either the Butch world or transgender side of things there is pressure to meet a certain level of masculinity in which they (another person outside of self) have defined and that their definition is the only definition that counts. Unless you work for webster dictionary your definition is a personal opinion and should not be forced to be gospel to another...it is a personal opinion...no more/no less.

The beauty of this world is that we are different...I love the wide verity of butches and femmes...makes life interesting. So, if you want to knit...wear make up...cut wood...arm wrestle...dance...play an instrument. Go for it...because honestly...who's to really say what is a girl thing or a boi thing. Embrace yourself..love yourself...and be happy

I could write more...but I think I have rambled long enough

I feel the same way on line. It never happens in person. I also date people who don't define as butch because they believe it means flannel wearing lumber jack that wipes themselves with steel wool on the loo. They feel quite butch to me in bed and in the way we interact. They feel exactly like a person who IDs as a butch. The only time I see people balking at wearing make up or a pink dress shirt or liking opera or ballet or going to a city park for a pic nic and looking at magazines is on line. Which is why I don't do my butch and femme and genderqueer and trans community on line anymore. I always feel like I'll never get asked out because A) almost everyone is in the states, no matter what group I join B) I don't enjoy being treated like a princess and I don't want to follow certain American dating rituals.
So, no one asks me out = less than.
However in person, I have the "what do you like to do in bed" conversation where I tell them how I relate to someone and I get a big smile and a nod and we never even discuss ID, it becomes irrelevant what my ID is or what theirs is. They are attractive, they relate to me in the way I like someone to, I relate to them sexually in the way they feel instinctual about and we've skipped the whole part where they or I ID.

It does require difficult conversations though and if you can't talk openly about sex, it will probably prove fatal lol

(i know this is way too long, if you're pressed for time or just have better things to do with yours than read my ridiculously long post just jump to the last two paragraphs. I think that is all I really meant to say)

Butch femininity. Interesting term. You don’t hear that much. But to me femininity comes with the territory of woman, a territory where I happily reside. And within the territory of woman resides the identity of butch. So to me femininity and butch seem congruent, although you would be hard pressed to see the two terms used together in a sentence to describe the same person. Mostly we just can’t get enough of that butch masculinity combo. That’s where we usually devote our time and energy.

I have, over the years, spent a lot of time struggling against masculinity, in all its permutations, variations, configurations and presentations. Once upon a time I rejected my own masculinity. I have viewed masculinity as synonymous with misogyny. I believed the term good man was an oxymoron. I had men in my life I loved dearly, I even had a son, but I saw them all as anomalies. They were the few exceptions to the rule that men are patently unpleasant.

In the past to me, generally speaking, men, male, masculine meant nothing good for women, female, feminine, because there was no way to live in this society and not be taught to view male as superior to female. Unless you were raised by wolves or lived from birth under a rock, on some level, consciously or unconsciously, to one degree or another, you would believe male trumped female. And unless you did a whole lot of work on yourself, this notion is stuck in your head. So man, male, masculine will believe he is superior. He is not likely to be evolved. He won’t accept that he has male privilege and that this privilege affects women. He may not be exorcised of his misogyny.

My understanding of the male of the species was that men viewed women as lesser versions of human beings who were, or at least should be, subservient to them. Masculinity has more value, more currency, than femininity to men (and most women as well), and unless men are looking for something to fuck, it is another male whose company they seek. At best they were benevolent oppressors at worst violent and dangerous destroyers. All were dream killers.

No surprise that I found my own masculinity appallingly inconvenient.

I understood these feelings were problematic as well as stereotypical and would mostly alienate me from masculine people (not to mention make them want to punch me in the face). I spent a great deal of time working on this. I try very hard NOT to eliminate 50% of the world’s population from my circle of value based on their sex or gender alone. I am pleased to say that I have been marginally successful to date. Thankfully I no longer believe all men/male/masculine people are the devil (some are his minions though.)

However, easily the most difficult issue for me to deal with was my own masculinity. I went through a variety of head tilting and a plethora of mental gymnastic type strategies to try and be comfortable in my own skin. At one point I decided it was not female masculinity I embodied regardless of what it felt like. I was simply doing woman/female my own way. I decided I would not let the patriarchy define what it means to be a woman for me. I would define woman in my own image. And my definition of myself did not include any masculine identifiers. That worked to a point, but there was always the problem of how I looked. You know the old adage if it looks like a duck? Well, I looked a lot like a duck, still do. Anyway, there were a few other similar issues that arose as well. All of them were of the same general duck theme though.

Not only did I look masculine but I felt masculine in a lot of ways. Not all ways but enough ways so that I could tell the difference when I felt feminine. Which was way less than when I felt masculine. But I always felt female.

Most of the clothes I liked happened to be found exclusively in the men’s department. Not only men’s clothing attracted me though, mostly, but not solely. But regardless of what type of clothes I wore, I did not look like most people’s definition of feminine. Also, lots of the stuff that I enjoy doing is typically considered masculine entertainment, although some things that I enjoy fall squarely on the feminine side of the equation.

I suppose the problem is exemplified by this need to define most things in life using the duality mode of quantification. I think it would be better for everyone all the way around if we could universally as one single minded organism just stop doing that. LIKE RIGHT NOW. But I doubt that will happen. You might be surprised to discover just how ingrained this is in us to do, and in how many different ways we define things using an opposite for clarity and understanding. We understand something to be up because we are clear on what is down. We know how cold it is because we have experienced warmth. In addition to the duality thing, we also use gradation usually in terms of a hierarchy with the most masculine firmly entrenched in the top spot.

There are many people who were born female and are quite comfortable in their own masculinity. I wanted to relate but couldn’t. Regardless of all appearances to the contrary, I was not one of the boys. On the other hand I was quite comfortable in my femininity as long as I was allowed to express myself in my own way. Yet as much as I felt female, I would never be considered one of the girls. And there were always plenty of girls to remind me of how far short I fell. I was envious of other butches who were comfortable being fairly synonymous with man. I was never at ease with leaving woman behind. I always identified with being a woman and with other women. I love women. Looking back though, I have to say that overall they haven’t been that fond of me. Most women saw me as masculine and interpreted that as me trying to emulate a man and they hated it. Fortunately femmes find female masculinity hot. However, regardless of whether I was loved or hated, my masculinity would not be denied. I have a better chance of denying my femininity and I suppose upon occasion I have done just that. Femmes may find female masculinity hot but butch femininity, not so much. Although losing either diminishes me

There is a lot in it for a butch to claim their masculinity. Not only does it feel right, but femmes like masculine identified people. Most femmes are attracted to butches as well as a variety of other masculine identified persons. For a lot of femmes it’s female masculinity that is the attraction, or at least it used to be that way. It is changing to include various types of male energy, but there are still a lot of femmes who are attracted to butch energy. And for a lack of a better way to explain that energy, it is generally thought of as female masculinity.

Besides all the reasons that make it is a lost cause for me to deny my masculinity, it is also clear to me that not claiming masculine energy would not make me any less masculine looking to the untrained eye. I often wonder if it is this masculine look and energy that I have that makes it so jarring for others when I do feminine stuff. I have over the years had to remind people that I am indeed a woman, when they express surprise about my feminine attire or my desire to make jewelry, decorate a cake or organize my closet. Then I have to add that even if I wasn’t a woman I could still bake a cake or wear silk blouses.

Butch femininity is a puzzling terminology for me because butch is always a feminine identifier in my mind. But then I no longer shy away from the term feminine. I fought too hard to own it and define it my way. Not just female, but woman and feminine. It’s all mine. My birthright. My sex is female and because of that I am subject to all that means in our society. I wouldn’t have it any other way. My identifying as female was often looked at as suspect, like I was cheating in some way, like I was purposely refusing to display agreed upon conduct or refusing to look a certain way but stubbornly holding onto female as my gender. Because of that degree of difficulty for me to just be female, the identity of woman was always very close to my heart, something I refused to relinquish. There’s a look I sometimes get from guys when they realize I am a woman. They always looked kind of pissed like I was trying to put one over on them. I know if it was possible to strip woman from someone’s identity there are people who would have happily done that to me (either that or beat the masculinity out of me). I guess it just seems greedy to them to keep both.

The thing is it wasn’t purposeful on my part. I never chose to refuse to look like what society has decided a woman should look like. I never refused to do stuff women enjoy just to be stubborn. I had this silly idea I should just be true to myself and that would be okay. I also believed I was female and there was nothing I had to do to be that. I just was that. So being anything other than female just wasn’t an option for me. I am a woman and happy to be so. Consequently upon occasion I will do feminine things. Hell I know some guys that upon occasion do feminine things. Personally I think the problem arises from gendering inanimate objects, thinking processes and emotional responses.

I imagine that there are some people who exclude or distance themselves from butchness because they feel it doesn’t allow for feminine traits as the OP mentions. I certainly have felt I didn’t fit butch comfortably because of the masculine rigidity. Yet there is this undeniable masculinity thing going on with me and it’s hard to ignore. For me butch is kind of a storage space into which I can stuff all my gender variety. I can try it all on and not have to wear any of it permanently. I hate it when it feels like people are trying to shrink the space by not allowing masculine or feminine in it.

And I agree that there is a degree of shaming that is directed toward butches who identify with and are comfortable in their own femininity. I just don’t think it has that much of an impact because if you are butch and still identify with your femininity you are way past being moved by misogynistic bullshit. By necessity you would have developed a degree of self-assuredness that would render you somewhat bulletproof. Of course if it’s from a partner, a woman you are dating, or someone you are interested in, kevlar is not impenetrable.

In answer to the OP’s question about gender pressure from other butches and masculine people, I personally have experienced more pressure to amp up my masculinity from femme partners. Well, not so much to amp up, but I have experienced a degree of anxiety from some partners when I have dressed in women’s clothes. I am prone to do this upon occasion, either for a job or sometimes just because I feel like it. There has never been a time when female clothing has not been a part of my wardrobe, nor has their been a time when male clothing has not been a part of my wardrobe. When I was younger guys’ jeans fit me best because I am not well endowed in the hip/ass department. Women’s jeans used to look like I was wearing riding breeches. I have spread a bit though so I doubt that would be a problem. But anyway the point is gender bending in any form is anxiety provoking for some people to witness. Even if you are simply bending your gender back around full circle.

Anyway it’s probably obvious by the length of this post that I find the topic intriguing. I find any conversation or topic valuable that celebrates the fact that, for many, butch is not simply a synonym for male. Personally for me it has nothing to do with male at all. Masculinity? Yes, of course, certainly, at least to a degree. But that’s been done to death in my opinion. For me, delving into the identity of butch with the quantifiers of female, woman, feminine and/or femininity is always a treat especially because I don’t think it gets looked at with any depth, especially in regard to femininity. Mostly we just skim the surface of butch femininity (if we go there at all). I love exploring the feminine side of butch.

To me femininity isn’t all about looks, I don’t think it is about wearing make up or how you dress or throw a ball or any shit like that. It is about how you think. It’s about how you relate to the world, to yourself, to others. It’s about how you express yourself. I think it is a mindset and one needs to be able to separate truly feminine from what society teaches us to believe feminine means.

You can be female and own a masculine identity, just like you can be male and own a feminine identity. It’s not easy but it’s doable. There is even support and acceptance available from certain communities. But if you are female and claim a masculine identity and want acceptance and the easy road you need to turn your back on femininity. Gender is closely monitored and because of the shit that we have been fed since birth we unconsciously need ways to find congruency in our choices. Male/masculinity is highly valued and well guarded, the borders diligently patrolled so that if you straddle the edges you need to leave your femininity behind. You can gain access even with a vagina but you must denounce it in some way. At the very least you must denounce femininity. You can keep female. Maybe even woman, but you cannot flaunt femininity in the face of masculinity. I mean of course you can do it, but you will marginalize yourself even more than you already are. And we are pretty far out in those margins already. There is little outward reward for a butch to claim femininity. But for those of us who do claim it the personal rewards are well worth the negative experiences. I don’t know if I am being clear enough but this is so long already I probably should stop here.

very poignant and well said. Thank you

I have thought about this... I honestly don't see myself as very feminine at all. I am not trying to puff out my chest and say I am uber 100% masculine. I just don't see much femininity within myself. Perhaps others do, I don't know. No one has ever mentioned me being feminine or having a feminine side, but perhaps some do see that in me. I am very sensitive. I suppose some might see that as my feminine side. I do not. I am not mechanically inclined at all. A few femmes, including a former femme partner (no one from this site) have ridiculed me for it. If you want me to fix your car or build you a house, you are fresh out of luck. If you want me to prepare and file your taxes or write you a story, that I can do. I do consider myself most definitely female and woman. I am a masculine lesbian/queer female- for me that is what butch is. I definitely embrace my female masculinity and it definitely feels natural (subject of course to all the socialization I have received throughout my entire life). My masculinity is not tied to being male. I don't feel male at all. I am a masculine female.

To me, masculine and feminine are more about energy and mindset (thank you Tick). I don't think masculinity is solely "owned" by men nor femininity "owned" by women. It's hard to talk about because the qualities that I consider masculine are not easy to define, they tend to be fairly amorphous but at the same time unmistakable.

In butch femme communities, it seems there is a tendency to think if an FTM knits, he is an FTM who knits. If a butch woman or female identified butch knits, she must be a soft butch, not as butch as some others. There is nothing wrong if that term resonates with you, but it does seem to me to feel like "butch lite." I just get the sense if you claim female and/or woman there really isn't much room for you to express yourselves in ways that are associated with woman or femininity without getting sent down a few notches on the "butch scale." Of course, not everyone does this, but the butch continuum scale really does seem to be there in the background, and sometimes the foreground, at all times.

Thinking out loud
 

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

Needed to add something
 

P.S. - Regarding the if an FTM knits he's just an FTM that knits, I don't truly believe that to be true, gawd forbid weatherboi show any sign of doing anything perceived as *feminine* let's say like...

slave to a Femme Dom


He's not just a guy who is owned


He's reduced to sub human, dismissed, ignored, called a half of a person, so no sometimes even FTM's.boys.bois get shit for even having an ounce of perceived , assigned or imposed *femininity* It makes me irritable when it's broad stroked so much in these convos, I think we should leave that seperate because it's different kinds of struggles...

boxes
 

When I was venting on the stereotypes thread, it was mostly about the expectations butches have placed on me. Not entirely, but mostly. I think that when butches who date femmes write, it's mostly about femmes.

Gender presentation is something we are desired for. We all want to be desired. And the people we date sometimes would like to make a few changes so we better fit their desires. Never a good thing, but quite common. Those are the times most of us feel gender policing or at least the times when it can wound most deeply.

So, I am going to have more stories about butches, and butches who date femmes are going to have more stories about femmes.

I do have stories about femmes who have policed me too. Again, when I first dated a femme in the r/t San Francisco butch-femme community, it was as if I had poured chum into a shark tank.

One of the things I find interesting about femininity is even if you just look at the straight community, not all women are thrilled to be called feminine. But I can’t say I’ve met a man who had a problem with being called masculine.

And for me it isn’t that only femmes perpetuate the problem, it’s that I only hear them. I don’t care that much what some guy says. When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me. Much more so than something a masculine identified friend would say. I could have phrased that better in my post. I certainly don’t think femmes or women are the problem. I think we are all victims of a patriarchal society. Women are harmed much more by misogyny than are men. It would be cruel and counter productive to lay the blame for misogynistic beliefs at the feet of femmes or women in general for that matter.

Still thinking
 

So is it competition?

Why is it that feminine gets squashed down and not celebrated?

I should of said the online common denominator so far in this thread is Femme's, if we (Femme's) are putting expectations of gender presentation and femininity is being squashed, isn't that a problem we should discuss?

Butches perpetuate it when they adopt very specific *masculine* markers as well. no?

Am I reading wrong? I only have these kinds of confusing conversations online about how butch is or should be, out here in real time butch is, well butch.

Wearing lip gloss doesn't take away from that, here (online) it seems to be different, it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...

"When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me."

Very true...the closer we are to someone the more the words touch us. Their words can build us up or break us down. Reflecting on my past, I indeed have many stories of comments made to me by femme's that hit me harder than things I observed in social settings because the relationship was closer with that person than the others. It is for that reason I would most likely be apt to use one of those stories as an example, because this topic is so personal.

However, I'm not sure that I personally can say that I have more stories of one than the other. I tend to think I personally have witnessed an equal number of masculine and feminine folks making judgmental comments regarding gender expression.

Yeah, HB and Bulldog were talking about how it's only online. I do not -- or did not -- find that. I found some of all this in the r/t community -- though much less.

Example of r/t being better -- I attended a few femme posse meetings in the SF Bay area many years ago, and I know they had politics, but I was pretty unaware. What I did see was a new femme come into the group who had never worn makeup, but wanted to learn how. No judgement, lots of help. Lots of fun. A lot of those women had been andro dykes at one point. Many had not, but their world was full of people of every possible gender -- it's SF -- so there was no judgement.

Example of it being worse -- the incredible -- INCREDIBLE -- amount of "ewwing" and gagging and insulting comments I got when I dated a femme and continued to attend events -- it was mind-blowing. I don't care anymore, so I guess that's forgiveness, but I will never forget. Trashy behavior like I had never seen back home. People calling each other out on public streets. Fights over who talked to whose boyfriends/girlfriends. These folks weren't kids either. I don't know. There is some connection in my mind between extreme performance of gender and this drama-soaked environment. I didn't see it as much in leather or among dykes outside that community. Maybe it was chivalry gone bad.

"Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine
people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to
*qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on
self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself
pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is
natural?"

In repsonse to the original post...

No, I do not feel pressure from butches or femmes to be anything other
than who I am. This could be due to the fact that my personality leaves
no room for criticism from others as to how I "do me". Not to imply that I
am insensitive to the feelings of others, but I am more sensitive to being
true to myself. I wouldn't be open to anyone projecting their ideals of how
I should act or dress onto me.

Come to think of it, I have made judgment of someone's "butchness".
After reflection, it really wasn't about "butchness" at all. But it had more
to do with how they morally or ethically conducted themselves instead of
appearance or mannerisms. Of course, that is a people issue not a
butch/femme one. As someone who relates the OFOS butch school of
thought, I find that label to be more relatable to people closer to my
age (50, very soon). With age and experience I find labels mean less and
less to me. In my interactions with folks, I look for the intent in their hearts.
When I was younger I might look at the outward appearance first....but now
I am more inclined to realize that the exterior has very little to do with whom
I am attracted to or connect with.

Thinking out loud
 

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

That's the thing. I like butches who are women. I like butches who are their own gender. I just can't equate sex (female or male) with gender (man, woman, butch, femme, bear, genderqueer, trans as gender). I personally get that a lot of my exes did not want to embrace the term "masculinity" because they felt it came with too much baggage. They wanted another word that was just for them and their gender. Which I get. I still personally have a residual twitch with the word myself. No, masculinity doesn't belong to men. The swastika actually doesn't belong to the nazis, it's eastern. But no matter how much I know that it means other things, the very first thing I think of when I see it, is hitler.
It's really hard, no, next to impossible, for me to say masculine without the same thing happening to me in my head. Probably why some butches struggle with the concept of being called feminine. They can't imagine femininity as any other thing than _______.

I tend to see most things as Nongendered to be honest. There are some things I cant help seeing as masculine but it's more an interplay between doer and item. than an actual "thing" ... I don't believe in "energy" or anything like that. I think it's a cop out word. What people talk about is movement, interaction. The way the body holds it's self we read as masculine or feminine. Because we were taught that. No other reason.

So my concept of "grace" like say the way Peter o Tool moved, crossed his legs, smoked and laughed, to me is ungendered but to someone else with a different back ground, less understanding of upper class British training of poise perhaps, would call it "faggy" or "effeminate" (feminine). Or tell me he has a "feminine energy about him" (argh... No he doesn't. You are talking about something you see, not an essentialist notion of being because it subjective. And if it's subjective, it CANT be essentialist)

Sorry bulldog I'm leaping off a word you used, not to get up your ass about it, but I see this "energy" word used all the time here used to describe and essentialist ideology about a persons being... And it's just not. It's the way they are viewed and for a reason the view has a bias toward. For example, the kids at school see me as having a "masculine" energy where as my friends see me as having a highly feminine "energy"

The kids at school mean : I'm assertive, I like to piss about with the boys, I like to talk about adventures, I laugh loudly and openly, I swear and am very confident about taking up space.

My friends mean: I dress very feminine, I flirt in a feminine style, I move my body in a feminine way. The kids at school don't see so much of that.

So which is it? Do I carry a masculine energy or a feminine energy? Could it be I don't have either and it's just how people have grown up with concepts and seeing those at the forefront of my behaviour? Probably.

I personally see myself as highly feminine because of certain traits and my love of feminine ritual.

I never put down a partner for doing anything they want that may be considered feminine. Go for it. Embrace it. Make it butch. I've seem butches pull off tiger striped bras and lip gloss. She also wore a disco silver lame soft ball jacket. She had MASSIVE huevos, that one lol... And no one Who knew her was ever in dispute about her being Butch. She has a presence of authority over herself. She dripped sex. Woof.

But yeah I have seen femmes and butches do it. Butches to the femmes and femmes to the butches. Mostly not with intent but sometimes incredibly so.

Mostly I feel pressure to be old school in my dating rituals in order to be desirable. I'm not. So I know my relative dateableness scale number is quite low. If I was more demure, quiet, giggled more, acted embarrassed and wanted someone to kiss me slowly and wrap their big strong arms around me and protect me...

I'm sure it would be easier. Alas. I am brassy, loud, and if anyone tell me what to do when I'm not naked, I get arsey. Plus I don't accept protection and care from people unless they have proved to me we have a caring friendship and hot sex. Oh well. My luck.

But yeah, I do feel a lot of pressure to conform in order to be desirable. So I get it.

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

Clarification
 

I specifically did not quote you so not have this happen, I bounced off your post and I should of clarified (I usually do but I got lazy, that won't happen again)

I'm only trying to make sure that it's clear like you have above how masculinity/femininity are traits behaviours that do not belong to ANY specific gender.

Having one more than the other does not take away from whatever you (general) are.


I wanted to clarify, in case you were confused and thought my post was directed *at you*, it wasn't..

Thanks Snow.

HB, I agree that describing or sensing someone else's "energy" is very subjective. It feels like a woo woo term to me, lol, but it is something I very much feel within myself and in other people's presence. It's like people have this buzz about them when they are in the room. Not very scientific or definite, I know.

Some people enjoy explaining most of their behaviors in terms gender. I remember a post I made about decorating, how I was currently into decorating with some very feminine touches. It had NOTHING to do with my gender. It was not an expression of me as femme. It was that I really liked those colors and those touches right now. Next year, I might be attracted to all steel and wood. (I don't decorate that often.) Anyway, some people see themselves in terms of layers and layers of complex gender expression. I do not see myself that way. If people entered that house and thought, "femme," it was on them. If they entered and thought "gay man," (I had roommates), that was also on them.

The music I like is favored by men, straight men over forty. It says nothing about my gender. It really doesn't. It says something about my geographical roots, my love of good writing, and my social class. But not a damned thing about my gender.

Gender does go deep for me. But it does not BEGIN to explain everything about me. People who explain so much about themselves in terms of the expression of their inner boy or girl -- it feels made up to me. But I don't know. I have no idea what their experience is. I have an acquaintance who is wiccan, and she hears the voices of gods and goddesses within her. Their voices and preferences shape her decisions. I do not doubt her experience, but it is as alien to me as understanding that my purchase of a bedspread is an expression of my gender. It might be for some folks. For me, it is not.

There are things about me that are feminine. I am a lot less feminine than some folks. But I have inclinations and mannerisms that make me clearly more feminine than not. But I sure do not try to understand most of my behavior in terms of gender. It feels false to me. It feels artificial. It feels like a construct placed on me. I do not experience that as liberating at all.

i've had butch friends to joke with me about not being butch. all in fun. nothing that i took serious. no pressure.

i'm butch, but i've always enjoyed my femme energy. in fact, i love it.

in the early stages of accepting that i am a lesbian, i had a problem with embracing being butch. my brain was so programmed to believe being butch was wrong, ... i had to clean out the clutter and let myself love me.

nat, great thread. i've enjoyed reading all the responses.

I don't know. I raised 3 sons and all of my son's had baby dolls and doll houses. They also had trucks. Bennie loved pink and wore it proudly. Jacob took dance lessons and Isa loved dresses. All three of my son's cry. They each show emotion. Two out of three are straight and one is a Marine. And my Marine still cries openly.

And I agree with many... This is an online thing happening. In the real world, does this really exist? I am sure for many - but not in my world. I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic).

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

?
 

I am sorry I have not read all this thread....has anyone spoke of the pressure femmes put on other femmes-and - butches put on other butches : questioning how femme or butch they are...I have seen/experienced this a few times during my lifetime.

...

In this thread its more dedicated to the butch/masculine and the ability to have a feminine side. I know that the femme side has been touched upon in the breaking stereo types thread.

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

"I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic). "

Have lesbians been sent off into the wilderness again ?

I'm lost again.

As it should be Bulldog. The only thread I think butches/trans need to stay out of - are the Femme bonding threads. When they come in and with their sexual innuendo's and the same for butch/trans threads that are about being butch/trans and bonding.

And I am harsh, so of course I sound that way :-)

I'm all in support of you expressing your thoughts and opinions like this, but I have to ask: How do you get away with it? I would be very reluctant to state any strong position myself, expecting immediate backlash and quick mod involvement.

Good for you, Julie. Though I don't agree with your opinions completely, I commend you for putting them out there and sticking to them.

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.