Pityphuck and Michfest 2014
 

Twas a wonderful year for Michigan Womyn's Festival here in 2014. Thanks to Happy_Go_Lucky for inviting dear vagina to accompany her to the Festival.

Being a Festie Firstie I was not sure what to expect. I had attended many other festivals in the past, especially attending BurningMan 3 years in a row. However, I would never imagine what it would be like to attend a festival that is all for women by women. All the stages and building is done by women. And only women are invited to attend.

It was beautiful to see so many lesbians, Femme/Butch couples and other women together celebrating sisterhood for 1 week. The festival provided entertainment in the forms of comedy, singing, dancing and poetry. Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner was provided... and there were multiple workshops going on all day.

My impression of the festival is beyond what words could possibly describe. The atmosphere was thick with so much woman centered sexuality, even dear vagina got a pityphuck during the festival. Please welcome our dear sister FemmeSinceThursday.

Sounds like an amazing experience! Thought I'd pass along a great blog post (http://bmgnedra.wordpress.com) I came across articulating the value of this festival for so many women:

I VALUE SEPARATE SPACES…

I value separate spaces of many kinds. I have participated in lesbian only, People of Color only, Women of Color only, black women only, black lesbian only, all women only, Womyn Born Female only. I get something different from each. I don’t particularly value queer space, but I don’t begrudge those who do taking it. For me “queer” tends to mean anyone at least half-way freaky deaky (like kinky straight folks think of themselves as “queer” now). It doesn’t speak to me as a lesbian at all. I think we, meaning lesbians, get lost in the LGBT alphabet soup. But that’s me. I think there is value in coming together occasionally or even regularly if that is what works for you. I just tend to find “inclusive” by way of “queer” doesn’t always mean the concerns of women will be addressed. For me this goes back as far as Queer Nation in NYC in the early 90’s. The issues being addressed were very white gay male focused. It’s part of why some of us women broke off and started Dyke Action Machine.

I value Womyn Born Female space because my life is informed by the fact that I was born female. It’s not just informed by my identity as a woman, but also by my female body. I did not understand that until I was in what was consciously determined Womyn Born Womyn space. (I prefer to use WBF over WBW, because I think it is more accurately spoken that way, as in “Womyn [gender, which is socially constructed] Born Female [sex, physical body]“)

I first learned about Michigan in 1986. And I learned in that first conversation about it that it was “Womyn Born Womyn” space. I had never heard the term before. The specificity struck me and the friend I was with… we both responded like “daaaaaaaaaaayum.” And I can’t say that, at the time, I responded that way because it sounded offensive or transphobic. I’d never even heard the word transphobic before. It was more that whoever put this gathering together consciously narrowed it down like that. Damn.

My first festival was in 1989. And because I understood it to be Womyn Born Female space I was conscious to consider why that might be meaningful to me. But many things struck me that I didn’t have to even think too much about. I was so impressed with everything about the festival. The production quality was amazing. It was as good as or better than any big concerts I had been to in my life. And I was more than impressed. I was SURPRISED. And I remember stopping myself and asking, “Why am I surprised?”

If anyone had asked me if I thought women/girls could do anything men/boys could do, I would have answered without hesitation “YES!” I had been fighting “girls can’t” my whole life. I literally had “girls can’t” said to me everyday of my childhood. Girls can’t play football, basketball, baseball, climb trees, play with trucks, throw a ball, do math, be good at science, take and be good at shop, play guitar… I mean on and on. And I fought it everyday. “But I am PLAYING football, therefore girls CAN play football.” I mean, seriously daily.

So I really thought I BELIEVED that girls could do anything. But what I found out was that some of that stuff had gotten under my skin and into my head and my beliefs about myself and other females. I realized that when I heard recorded music, even if the band was all women, I had some idea that if there was a guitar solo, a guy probably did that. And like I saw the stages and big tents and the sound booth and the lighting at Michigan and I imagined that guys had come and put that together. I had no idea prior to Michigan that I really thought that way. And so Michigan made me really understand that I had so much healing to do around what it means to be female and what I went through growing up, BECAUSE I am female. I realized I had internalized the messages “girls can’t” and the reflections in media and culture that inform our sense of possibilities and limitations and was applying those beliefs in my life totally without being conscious about it.

- – – – -

Sort of as a related aside, one time when I was in my late teens and living with my father, his mother, my grandmother came to visit. Gram was an opininated matriach for sure. And she had a real thing about hair. She was a hairdresser. And, because of racism, she had really internalized the idea that since we had the technology to straighten our hair as black women, we should. Straight hair is beautiful and good. Nappy hair is not. She could deal with natural hair on some level, but it had to be very well kempt and definitely not braids (dreadlocks, totally nothing she could even imagine). I was wearing my hair then similar to the way I wear it now when it’s out and that is kind of wild and curly. So one day while Gram was visiting she sighed and said to me…”I’m going to tell you something…cause I love you.” I knew to brace myself, because surely something weighted was coming. Then she said, “You used to be pretty…” And I was like, “Daaaag Gram. This is about my hair?” And she nodded. So I replied, “A lot of people like my hair.” And it was true that I did get a lot of compliments on it. But she held strong to her opinion. “They are lying to you. I’m telling you the truth, because I love you.” I was able to redirect the conversation, responding with the hook of a Louis Jordan tune we had been listening to by singing, “But I’ll die happy.” We laughed it off and I went and had my day. But later that night I was lying in my bed and I thought to myself clear as if I said it out loud, “Wow. That’s fucked up my friends lie to me.” And I shook and shocked myself thinking that, because it did get to me. IT. GOT. TO. ME! And that is a parallel experience to how all the messages get to us as girls even when we were girls who thought we were actively resisting those messages.

- – – – -

There are so many limitations and expectations forced on us. For some women perhaps all of that works with their natures. But for those of us that it doesn’t, its quite brutal. I am a woman with a low voice. And I grew up being made fun of because of it. And I learned to speak higher to avoid getting shit for my voice. That is something I have been able to heal in part, because of Michigan. Judith Casselberry, Edwina Lee Tyler, Alexis P. Suter, Ubaka Hill, Maxine Feldman and more… I’m not the only one!

At Michigan, I learned that women can be quite hairy. I am not really hairy at all. But it was very meaningful to see women fiercely rocking beards and hairy legs. And I imagined for years that they just let themselves go for fest. I had no idea that they were so daring as to present like that out in the world. Like, what is natural for women, is unacceptable socially. We are so guided and forced into standards of beauty that are impossible for most of us. And at Michigan I saw women defying the status quo of gendered expectations and defining “woman” by finding, healing and being themselves, as opposed to allowing “woman,” as it is socially constructed and understood in mainstream society, to define them.

And we tend to be trained from childhood… from babies really to protect ourselves… our virtues… we begin learning (many, maybe most of us) as babies to “sit like ladies”… with our legs closed. This is not just manners. It’s preparing us to appear less inviting… less available for unwanted sexual advances. We don’t learn to know rapists in such a way that our instincts are honed to detect their identities as rapists. The best we can do is to understand that men and boys (who we understand as anyone male) are all potential violators. We need to be careful… don’t walk down certain streets, don’t stay out late… don’t get too drunk, never go out alone… women guess and try so hard to avoid assault and yet 1 in 5 in the U.S. have been sexually assaulted. And 90 something percent of the time sexual assault of females is at the hand of males. So our instincts are honed to know, as best we can, when we are in the presence of males. I think this is both nature and nurture. It’s quite animal really to know sex this way.

I didn’t know until Michigan how ON I was all the time. Like, I think probably most women who go there for the first time end up a few days in suddenly realizing they are not afraid. Like, there are no males there. That survival instinct that kicks in everywhere else and is conscious of males in our presence doesn’t get triggered… even though there are bearded and sometimes very butch women. THAT thing does not get tripped off in WBF space. And it’s such a relief. And I mean that it is one I would not have expected. Because when I realized I was not afraid is when I realized I am normally afraid all the time. It was the absence of that fear that made me realize I had it in the first place. Its a profound realization. It was for me anyway. It’s like carrying a huge pack of rocks on your back and it being there so long you don’t even realize you are carrying it. And then someone says “hey… you can put that down now.” And you don’t even know what they are talking about. And then when you actually take it off… you can’t believe how big and heavy it was… you can’t believe it was just your normal.

I understand that many people cannot process the idea of me considering myself a trans ally when I also say that I value WBF space. I feel like if I were to deny that I find value in it when I do in order to not hurt feelings or to avoid being framed as transphobic, THAT would actually be transphobic. Not all WBF want or need WBF space. I do. Many others do. It is our healing space. The value we find in it is not about the hatred of anyone not intended to be there. I can be a better ally and show up to support inclusive events when I am more whole and healed myself.

People, anyone really… but especially oppressed classes of people, have a right and responsibility to create healing spaces as they need toward their healing. I believe in the healing powers of separatist spaces. I believe in them because I know they have been a part of my own healing. And I feel so strongly about them that I think the only people who have a right to change the intention of a given space are those intended. And for those I am included in, I would vote to hold as originally intended if only one person in the group said they still needed it as such.

And I think anyone, intended or not intended, within the boundaries of a given healing space trying to force a change in the intention for that space is being abusive. I don’t mean its abusive to just bring up the question like, “This group is intended to be black women’s space, anyone up for changing the intention to be for all WOC?” But I mean actually disregarding an intention and bringing people outside the intended group or any other kind of forced way to change the intention of a healing space…be that a petition that frames the intention as hateful and or intimidation of any kind etc. What is happening with Michigan in terms of actively intimidating artists and attendees (appealing to currently billed artists to cancel their participation, calling other venues they are billed at and having them cancelled there with threats of boycotts to those events as well, demanding apologies for ever having performed in the past, getting fired from jobs, being denied jobs for attending, calling clients of attendees and asking them to no longer work with them etc.) is absolutely abusive and dismissive of the needs of those intended. My other blog “SSCAB/DSCAB: Reconsidering the Conversation” goes more into the background and politics around all of this, you may find it useful.

I don’t know how to do anything to make the abuse stop. But I feel it is important to stand in the truth of my experience and my own needs and values around what is happening in terms of the framing of Michigan as anti-trans. For me, it is important that such an ugly and inaccurate framing not be allowed to stand unchallenged by the voices of those of us who understand and hold dear Michigan as a healing and loving space, specifically determined for WBF. As Audre Lorde said it, “My silences [have] not protected me. Your silence will not protect you.”

So again, I want to make clear that MWMF is really an incredible experience. It’s not just a music festival. It’s not comparable to anything mainstream like Lilith Fair or any other big music festival. Yes there are well produced concerts and so it serves as entertainment. But there are no outside sponsors, no Coca Cola stage or Budweiser stage. Everything is done by the hands and hearts and intentions of WBF for the love of WBF.

But I think for most attendees the real value of Michigan is what it allows us to access within ourselves. It gives us the time and space to recover and reclaim the things that we are told are not valuable, because they do not fit into the prescribed gender roles we are assigned as people who were born female — like my low voice, body and facial hair, we get to see our many different shaped bodies as strong and beautiful on our own terms that don’t necessarily fit the standard of beauty as defined by our ability to please men. We get to own our talents with carpentry, plumbing, playing musical instruments, running sound and lighting, garbage and recycling, tree trimming and land maintenance, as well as handling childcare and tasks that are traditionally assigned to females in ways that honor that work and talent of the women who do it… This is women managing a small town made up solely of females who are finding our truest and highest selves without permission or apology.

We are young and old, of varying physical abilities. We are females of many ethnic, economic, cultural, religious and educational backgrounds sharing our experience, strength and hope and celebrating our living in a world in which we understand “we were never meant to survive” as whole and complete human beings. This, despite the very popular and negative rhetoric, is what Michigan really is about. It’s a loving and celebratory space for WBF to examine how our lives are informed by the fact that we were born and assigned female, in a way that I haven’t found possible anywhere else. If you are a WBF who finds that appealing, I hope you will consider attending or supporting the festival and the artists who perform at fest in whatever way you can.

WOW! I mean, Holy Mother, wow. Nedra Johnson has written something so profound, and so perfect. She articulates my feelings precisely about the value of separate space. Thank you so much for posting this.

I attended MWMF once in the 1980s. Sadly, it was the year that the SEPS, (I can't remember what the acronym stood for, but they identified as lesbian separatists), triend to eject the leather women with the tacit, and sometimes explicit, support of the festival organizers. While attending MWMF awoke some of the feelings Nedra describes in her blog post, those feelings were shortlived once I became aware that there was a sizeable contingent of women in attendance who were very keen to unwelcome me. I've never been back even though I understand that there's now a large and relatively uncontroversial leather women's presence. Nedra's beautiful post makes me wonder if I shouldn't attend again.

As someone who has never felt that I "fit in," Hesse events are very intimidating. Perhaps they are worth another look. Pajama....hold me.

Thanks, Cheryl, for putting Nedra Johnson's full name to her article.

I just finished reading an earlier piece of writing of hers that she references: "SSCAB/DSCAB: Reconsidering the Conversation” which also makes a lot of sense (to me).

It's heartening to see the many thanks that were given of those who align themselves with Ms. Johnson's words.

I have to smile each time I see the word: pityphuck.

I have never seen that before.

Anya, many thanks
 

Yes pityphuck is the milder version of pityfuck. I felt that putting the word fuck in the title of a post might be a little abrasive, so I always tone it down for the planet. Hence we came up with the word phuck.

Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention that I participated in a sweat lodge. It was my first sweat lodge experience and this particular sweat lodge was for survivors of sexual assault. And it was exactly what I had expected. Women healing from being raped, wanting to not divest so much energy into thoughts of how to avoid it.

Thanks Happy_Go_Lucky for not telling anyone of how scared shitless I am of heights and especially rocky skyscrapers. Or about that episode of crawling on all fours on the 103rd floor, shaking and wide-eyed because I had the 'scaweredz' of falling down. I hope nobody finds out that I have fears, lol.


Oh yeah, and we neglected to mention the beautiful lake that mezmerized me every morning as I went out to paddle board and about the mermaids that live in the lake. They are borne of the pond scum and rise like pond lilies to the surface. Luring unsuspecting women into the waters.


Oh and certainly not least, the FLOOD. We forgot to tell the planeteers about being caught in a state of emergency flood in Detroit. The soil of the land was soaked, it was so Dirt-y and Muddy. We barely made it out alive from there. Heaven knows we almost drowned.

:cherry:

I was at the first MWMF in 1976. We were a few hundred women, with the largest group (us) being from Canada ( Ontario and Quebec). I was 30 years old. When they celebrated 20 years, I was there again except this time I was 50. I thought the sky-diver was in my honour.
I remember the moment the shirts/tops first came off, the cries of "Man in the woods", the local men setting up lawn chairs in pick-up trucks to watch us shower. I remember the music but most of all, I remember getting laid a "gazillion" times.

Thanks Collette
 

I am thankful for each and every account of the festival. I know a masseuse named Cairyl who goes each and every year and provides probably the best massage you will ever have. When I visit FR, I get Cairyl to work me over. lol

Perhaps this subject can continue to build interest, as it has to display the positive/energy/love/fest .
perhaps instead of being topless, I would be in one of my boustiers.

Another great goal for having my hip replaced.

I just went back to check how many times Collette said she got laid, and I shall come prepared!!! Oh my!

:eatinghersheybar:

Fest!
 

lol "pityphuck" - I love it! :-p
 

Ahhhh, I've never been but want to go so badly. It'd be a 2,500 km drive (one way!) or a very expensive 7 hour flight to get there from where I am, but dammit, I'm resolved to make it next year even if I have to pimp myself out as a femme-for-butch escort. :bellydancer: :jester:

I read that Nedra Johnson piece on her blog a short while ago and thought it summed up perfectly why spaces like Michfest are so important. I just wish there were more of them!

I'm a bit nervous about the camping thing though... while I can appreciate nature in the abstract, I'm not exactly what you'd call an "outdoorsy girl" and I haven't been camping since I was dragged out unwillingly as a teenager. I don't even own a pair of shorts... Or jeans. Or flip-flops. Or flat sandals. Or a tent. Or, or, or... the list goes on.

Question for the femmes: how did you find the camping aspect? Are you a camper in general or is Michfest your exception? Are there any things you'd wished you'd known ahead of time or adjustments you've made over the years which have saved you time or frustration? Do most Festies tend to go "granola" for the duration of Fest out of convenience? Is there really no cell service at all?

Also, I'm a little confused as to what exactly the Twilight Zone is. Is it strictly for BDSM practitioners? Do you have like some bulldykes casually playing poker and downing a few beers while a few feet over there's someone being whipped and tied to a tree or what? It sounds very odd... and a little intimidating to a somewhat introverted chem-free gal who has little to no experience in BDSM. Is it like a giant kinky play party in the woods? I've read snippets about it elsewhere online and the doms made it sound like Varsity level kink where only Very Serious Players seeking Very Serious Experiences with Very Serious Skills should dare to venture. Lots of gatekeeping. Kinda turned me off. Vagina and Happy Go Lucky, you must have been really appalled considering your extensive in depth investigation. :p How is it different from the rest of the "activities" that tend to go on throughout Fest? What's the crowd makeup like (numbers, ages, types of people, etc.)? Any things you liked or didn't like about it? Inquiring Festie Virgins need to know. :blush:

I have had some amazing times at Michfest but never went back after the summer I witnessed the transwomen who refused to follow "don't ask, don't tell" removed by security in tears. These were lesbians who had gone to much more trouble than I ever had to be women and to be lesbians and they were forced to sleep outside the entrance in a sad community of tents and heartache of being left out. I was in college at that time, and it left a big impression on me seeing these lesbians who had often had to give up their jobs, their families, and their sense of being accepted anywhere describing in tears how this is what their lives had come to. Michfest stands firm in not accepting trans women who will not pretend not to be trans (don't ask/don't tell), and that's why I think of Nazi, Germany when I think of Michfest.

Look at a calendar - it's no longer the 70s
 

I am so amazed that while almost every important organization in the LGBT movement (including the National Center for Lesbian Rights) has publicly declared its opposition to the ridiculous "womyn born womyn" intention of MichFest that people on THIS SITE (which has its own intention of being a safe space for trans women) would defend a blatantly discriminatory practice.

I don't dispute the good things you all say about MichFest, all the healing and celebrating and safety, etc. I just wish all the women in our community (and yes, trans women are women) could feel welcomed there.

I am proud to be an ally for my trans brothers and sisters and I won't sit idly by when trans women are shunted aside and made to feel less than.

The politics of the era in which MichFest was founded have evolved. It's time for the festival to do so as well. If not, then it is going to wither on the vine just like the values of exclusion it espouses.

Intention? Policy? It's a distinction without a difference. Make the festival a safe place for ALL women. And make this site a safe space for both cisgender and trans butches and femmes.

If not, who ya gonna exclude next?????

Experiences
 

I don't see intention in her post, I share her sentiments, I love The Land, I have been there more times than I can count using my fingers and toes combined. I miss the Land, but I too feel a deep sense of unease when women aren't being allowed. I had a friend who was not a WBW who *sneaks* in every year, she went this year, you probably ran into her and she doesn't share that secret. I don't see it as her doing anything wrong, and it makes me mad she has to *sneak* in. She's a wonderful woman, her moral core is feminist, her work is in social justice. If anyone found out, that had the thinking that you seem to be putting off, she'd be asked to leave.


So as much as I love Womyn's Land I have a deep sense of sorrow that some women can't experience what I have many times over. I think ALL women should go to MWF, because there is nothing more beautiful than women, free to be women under the stars, it's truly magical.


The truth is hard to swallow, Michfest was not friendly to the WOC space when we all fought so hard for it, so as magical as it is, it has it dark sides and though it may make you (general) uncomfortable, it's out there and many of us have been through those dark times and I feel it's ok to talk about them.

@BBinNYC and nycfem- As Nedra eloquently explained in her blog post, not every place is appropriate for everybody. Besides her extraordinarily lucid points about our lived experience as girls and women being an important qualifier for WBW space, there's another important physical reason why I have very few issues with MWMF's trans policy. Even though I only attended MWMF once, I can say from what I've recently read that some things haven't changed.

MWMF shares a similarity with women's BDSM play parties in that women feel safe walking around without their clothes. As a matter of fact, that's one of the defining features of both of those events. This is relevant because many trans people don't have surgery, and most trans inclusion policies are no longer based on anatomy. In other words, we no longer rely on whether or not a person can leave their 'dick in the drawer'. It would be foolish not to acknowledge that there are good reasons for that policy change. Some trans people aren't good surgery candidates, or their health insurance policy won't cover the expensive surgeries. It makes sense, BUT it means that if MWMF were to change their policy to include all trans women, a person who has had no surgery and may not have taken any hormones could demand entrance to MWMF, and then would be free to walk around without their clothes. As you might have guessed, I don't feel safe and happy in women's space if I'm seeing bio-dick. Period. In fact, if I have to see dick, it's not women's space anymore.

Make a policy that 'if a person has a bio penis, please keep it covered', you say? I have been vilified internationally as a transphobe and a generally horrible person for proposing just such a thing for our women's BDSM play parties. A trans woman friend who supported this party rule because she never wanted to see another dick as long as she lived was called a transphobe by people who had never been trans. Irony free. You can't make this s**t up.

'A trans woman would never show the most male part of herself!' I used to hear that reassurance, and I actually believed it until I had multiple experiences with people with very male bodies, unmodified by hormones or surgery, who had no problem exposing their penises at women's BDSM play events that welcome trans women who live their lives 24/7 as women. This occurred at events in both California and in NY. One clearly very male person I'll call N demanded and gained admittance to our NYC women's BDSM group. He asserted that he was a woman because he felt like one, and that taking hormones or having surgery would be participating in medical fascism, or something. Physically he was a very large and tall male, and he did absolutely nothing at all to change any single thing about himself. For instance, he wore the same clothes and shoes, and he went to the same barber and got the same traditionally male haircut as he always did. Obviously, gender is not based on clothes and hairstyle, but this guy was treated like a man in every aspect of his life because he gave no cue whatsoever to anyone that he might be anything other than male. Deliberately. And then he demanded and received access to women's space. My trans friends were NOT happy to see him. My close sister-friend, A, was horrified. She took her transition from male to female very seriously. She sacrificed a great deal to become a woman. She tried to speak to N about her concerns, but he was, uuh, intransigent.

A worried that N would reflect so poorly that her own acceptance as a woman in our community could become endangered. I hoped we would be able to reassure her that we had an individual problem with N, as she did, but horizontal hostility reigned and it got very ugly. Other women had a problem with N, but they were afraid of being called transphobes and none of them spoke up the way A and I did. Trans activists, some of whom had never been trans, had no problem calling A, a trans woman who had been so active in the fight for trans rights that she was gifted by the Governor with one of the pens used to sign a bill securing trans rights, a transphobic bigot. I was also called a misogynist because trans women are women, so my obvious hatred of other women made me a misogynist. One woman told me that her girlfriend's penis was a female sex organ because her girlfriend, (a trans woman who hadn't had surgery and didn't take hormones), was a female, so her penis was therefore female. Once again, you can't make this s**t up.

Finally, some of those people who were so active in advocating for a male bodied person to be allowed to attend our women's events with no restrictions on their intact penis, told me straight up that they were dedicated to obliterating women's space. Because it's exclusionary and discriminatory. Against men. No, I'm not making this up.

It's easy to propose policies in the abstract, but the reality on the ground can get messy. I described N to friends who, it turns out, thought I was overreacting. Until they met N in person. Then the reality of a large, male MAN at the women's party stared them in the face, and they didn't like it one bit. One of the sweetest moments came when my closest sister-friend, who considers herself a huge trans supporter, was visiting from Canada with her trans-boi partner. Both of them asked me, "Why did you let that man into the party? Did you have to let him in because he's the owner of the space?"

The answer is that we were forced to let that man into women's space because he claimed to be a woman, and inclusive trans policies leave women's space open to abuse by entitled men.

Thanks so much, HGL, for taking the time out to give such helpful tips to this Festie Virgin. I appreciate it soooo much. You've given me a lot to mull over. I actually had already signed up for the Michfest forum before I wrote that post but the admins were taking their sweet time in activating my account so I wasn't sure how long it would take (maybe they're still a little hungover/recovering from Fest?). I just checked now and yay, we have lift-off! :D

The car wash is an interesting proposition (if you all weren't so far, far away...), though if it's going to be clothing optional like Fest, I'd need to get on that soon as it's already starting to get a bit nippy around here. :blush:

nanners, I may hit you up later to hear about your infamous tips. You sound like a woman whose brain I'd like to pick! :p
...

As far as the intention of the Fest goes... I'm of a similar mind to CherylNYC and the other post by Nedra Johnson which Soon shared where she discusses DSCAB and SSCAB as more descriptive terms than AFAB and AMAB (DSCAB standing in for Dominating Sex Class Assigned at Birth and SSCAB for Subjugated Sex Class Assigned at Birth). I think it's a very delicate matter and not so analogous to, say, race, class, religion, etc (the reasons for which are explained quite beautifully, kindly, and clearly at the above post).

I have to say that the whole "penis is a female sex organ" and "you're a bigot if you don't sleep with a male bodied person, especially if you ID as queer or bisexual" thing is pretty de rigeur in the under 40 social justice activist/queer/LGBT crowd where I live... and it just... makes my eyes cross. :seeingstars:

I emphatically agree that those who have female bodies and were raised as female need separate space to heal and just let down their armour, even if it is for only a week a year in the middle of the woods in one part of the globe. I don't think that denying the differences in our bodies, our upbringings, our socializations, is doing anyone any favours and is, in fact, pretty misogynistic.

That being said, I think that if a serious discussion of the Michfest intention specifically were to develop, I dunno, it may be better suited as a separate Red Zone "hot topic" if someone wants to start one as I know there are a lot of feelings and thoughts and this could get off topic pretty quick...

[/$0.03]

Let's Get Physical
 

People use many biological and other rationales to defend bias and discrimination. Would an intersex person whose genitalia makes their gender unclear be a threat to you at MichFest? When do you stop drawing the line at who is really a woman?

All I can say is that the arc of history is long and it bends toward justice, so this relic of the past that refuses to change will go the way of the whites only drinking fountains and back of the bus seating.

The experience of people assigned female at birth who grow up as female is far from monolithic and cannot be the unifying factor for defending an intention that sees that experience as a "gender identity."

I would not want to be at an event that wouldn't welcome Laverne Cox or Janet Mock or any trans woman because she was not deemed female enough.

I am frankly baffled that self-identified butches whose sense of self is all about transgressing gender lines would feel this way. I feel embarrassed on behalf of all the trans folks who come to this site expecting a safe place.

Why be ugly?
 

Why so hostile? Why do your sisters have to stuff anything in to pipes and smoke it? Why can't there be a discussion about ALL of Michfest?

The good, the bad, the ugly?

Anyone remember the year Susan Powter [sp?] said that all fat lesbians, dykes, and fat positive queers, SHOULD put their ice cream down and exercise?

The last year Bitch & Animal performed together AND Animal was all hot on Susan we weren't happy with her triggery, fat phobic, women hate, book selling bullshit....
I love The Land, but like any other event it has its controversies and problems. I feel it's ok to address these issues without hostility and ugliness.

One of the things I like about Michfest is how diverse it is and how different groups of women are given their space to bond: e.g. the lesbian separatists, the bdsm folks (and, yeah, the twilight zone is amazing), lesbians with disabilities, etc. The thing is that each of these groups even though they may have conflicts (e.g. bdsm and separatists have gotten into it at times), discussions and educating one another is encouraged. And yet... women who were born with genitalia that didn't watch their gender identity are not given a space. Prior to the crackdown trans women did have workshops (I went!) to talk about what it was like to be a trans lesbian for those who were interested and had questions and even concerns. However, after it was made clear (also witnessed by me) that that was no longer allowed and anyone who was out about being a trans lesbian would be physically escorted out by security, usually in tears (which I also witnessed), I felt like an important part of the diversity among lesbians and among women was missing. Michfest has amazing music, discussions, food, the whole vibe, and the experience of being both separate and together. Discriminating against trans lesbians to the point of making them set up tents outside the entrance and not be allowed in to buy crafts and see friends and do all the fun things at Michigan just sickened me. It is also interesting to note that in my experience wbw who were in the process of transitioning to men were MORE welcome than fully transitioned lesbian identified trans women. The policy of Michfest is not unique to Michfest. For instance, Olivia cruises also has a policy that they do not welcome trans lesbians. It must be hard to be a trans lesbian woman who may be extra tall or have a low voice and feel like one has to hide their past in order to be welcomed.

Note that it is not noted that Olivia would protect trans lesbian women from being harassed in the way described below.

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com

Sooooo... I may end up regretting this but... here. Can we have a separate space about, er, separate space?

We can have our cake and critique it, too, yes? :praying:

:byebye:

What I got from the article is that there are two main reasons why the author supports the festival including only "womyn born females" and desires it to remain this way:

1) She feels empowered/enjoys being in a space of people who were treated/socialized as girls growing up because they experienced misogyny, sexism, social conditioning as being "less than", etc,. It is this "shared experience" among the participants that creates this feeling for her.

2) She feels empowered/enjoys being in a space with people who live as adult womyn who currently experience misogyny, sexism, etc. from society. Again, this is a shared experience that she finds empowerment in.

She feels a need for both of these criteria to be met by the participants in order to have that feeling of empowerment, freedom, safety, etc.

This means that:

1) Women who were socialized as males (individuals often identify as trans* women) do not meet criteria #1.

Does she view them as meeting criteria #2? I don't know. The only way I could see them as NOT meeting criteria #2 is if they HAVE NEVER "PASSED" AS WOMEN, which I think is pretty doubtful (they have probably "passed" as least once in their life which lends itself to believe that they have experienced sexism, misogyny, etc.)

2) Men who were socialized as females (these individuals often identify as trans* men) meet criteria #1. I would suggest that some of these men pass some of the time, often, but some do indeed "pass" 100% if they have been on testosterone for a number of years. So, those who identify as men who do not "pass", therefore facing sexism, the author would agree with attending the event.

That's my assessment of the article.

Moving forward....

____

I heard many years ago that male identified female socialized individuals were allowed to attend MichFest, while female identified male socialized people were not. I found that interesting. I never looked into the truth of this back then though, so I actually don't know if this was true.

Reading this article this morning, made me curious to look into this. I couldn't find anything on the MichFest site, but I came across this from www.eminism.org, which I understand to be a respected and trusted website:

"Genderqueer people and others who identify as neither male or female are also excluded under this policy even if they were raised as girls. In 2000, several "trannie boys, boydykes, FTM's, Lesbian Avengers and young gender-variant women" - who were not transsexual women - were evicted from the festival for their refusal to identify as "womyn-born womyn" either because they no longer identify as women, or in solidality with their comrades. "

http://eminism.org/michigan/faq-intro.html

I do not know when the above was written, so I decided to search a bit more. This is what I read on Wikipedia:

"After artists were once again requested to boycott festival in 2014, Vogel issued another statement on the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival's Facebook on May 9 to address what she called the "rampant inaccuracies in social media" regarding the festival. In it, she noted:


We have said that this space, for this week, is intended to be for womyn who were born female, raised as girls and who continue to identify as womyn. This is an intention for the spirit of our gathering, rather than the focus of the festival. It is not a policy, or a ban on anyone. We do not “restrict festival attendance to cisgendered womyn, prohibiting trans women” as was recently claimed in several Advocate articles. We do not and will not question anyone’s gender. Rather, we trust the greater queer community to respect this intention, leaving the onus on each individual to choose whether or how to respect it. Ours is a fundamental and respectful feminist statement about who this gathering is intended for, and if some cannot hear this without translating that into a “policy”, “ban” or a “prohibition”, this speaks to a deep-seated failure to think outside of structures of control that inform and guide the patriarchal world. Trans womyn and transmen have always attended this gathering. Some attend wanting to change the intention, while others feel the intention includes them. Deciding how the festival’s intention applies to each person is not what we’re about. Defining the intention of the gathering for ourselves is vital. Being born female in this culture has meaning, it is an authentic experience, one that has actual lived consequences. These experiences provide important context to the fabric of our lives, context that is chronically missing from the conversation about the very few autonomous spaces created for females. This erasure is particularly mindboggling in a week when 276 girls were kidnapped and sold into sex slavery solely because they were female. This is the world females live in.[29]"


Hmmmm...so Vogel says that "this space, for this week, is intended to be for womyn who were born female, raised as girls and who continue to identify as womyn". Enimism says that those who "identify as neither male nor female...young gender variant women" aren't really welcomed either.


<I just lost the bottom half of this post...killer when this happens...will try again>


So, reading all of this makes me wonder. Do the people here at BFP realize that many of the members of our site would not be encouraged to attend this event? I am wondering how people feel about this. I especially curious wonder about those who subscribe to the author's and support Vogel's "intention" that only cis womyn identified womyn attend this event?


Let's look at who at this site would not be included due to identification and/or socialization:


1) Transsexuals (FTMs, MTFs)


2) Those that identify as transgender or trans*


3)Those who identify as genderqueer, gender fluid, gender neutral, without a gender, neutrois, two spirit, you get the idea....


4) Male identified butches


5) MANY female identified butches.


That last one? Really? Sure. There are a hell of a lot of butches here (maybe even most), who don't identify as women, or who do identify as gender variant in some way. We need not look past the pronoun statuses of many butches here to tell us this. How many say something like, "he or she, doesn't matter to me", " call it as you see it", "indifferent", or even "she or hy". The famous, old time "hy" (which I have used for eons). "Hy" is at minimum a form of gender variance, isn't it?

I wonder how many people know that they themselves, their lovers, or their friends from this site shouldn't attend this event if they want to follow the guidelines as to who this event is for?


If you are still reading, God love ya. I swear this is the longest post I have every written. Well, maybe not.

Anyway, what is my opinion on who should attend this event?

Whoever Vogel says the event is for. Yep. I don't think a damn thing should change. I swear in my heart of hearts I don't.

It's her event. It is not the "community's" event. Or, at least I hope she doesn't say it is the "community's event" Why? Because there is no way every womyn born womyn who attends this event would want to leave that many of their friends, family, and lovers at home.

P.S. If you plan to attend in the future, it is probably best if you leave your "butch cock" at home, if it one of those "realistic" looking ones, anyway.

Colette,

I was there too. Did we see each other? lol. I was hanging out with friends who were selling "Smile" jeans from NY and Indian kurta shirts. What a great experience then. (I was probably topless most of the time, lol)

Dapper, I hear what you are saying. It is very disturbing and I for one, I guess as a woman packing butch wonder if I would have to leave my cock at home to attend. So what does that say about a safe space for me? Is she advocating that safety is only possible in the absence of any kind of cock, butch, femme, whatever? I would suspect that these womyn are being sexual with one another....does that mean sexual behavior is limited to vanilla sex, as I change there are so many questions to think about.

I wasn't questioning the safety for anyone at this event. Please do not read that into my post.

I actually just got back online to see if I could edit out the P.S. It sounded snarky and I did not want to present this way in the post.

All I was trying to get across is that this event is intended for female born women and not people who are variant in their gender/sex. I was trying to say that some of our people here would not fit this guideline and I was wondering what people thought about that. I wonder if they ever thought about it before. I wondered if they want to support such an event and if they want to go if indeed they do not identity with who the event is "intended" for. My understanding is that butch women are very much welcomed as I am sure you witnessed!

That's all I was saying.

I am sure there are hella lotta dongs that are big and realistic!