Public Displays of Affection (PDA)
 

I have a question...

Let me start with some background.
I am a very affectionate person, I like to touch, hold hands, caress, kiss and I never think about where I am or who might be around. My girlfriend is like that at home but not in public. She is getting used to holding my hand, maybe a quick kiss if she thinks no one is around.

Last night we were at a street festival with another couple and we walked up holding hands and the first comment out of the butches mouth was "whoa no PDA". So, me being me I had to crawl all over my girlfriend and kiss her everywhere. The butch got mad and walked away, my girlfriend just laughed and asked why I have to piss everyone off.

Through out the evening my girlfriend and I held hands off and on but the other couple never did, never touched, you would never even know they were a couple. They had their son with them, and they both were very affectionate to him, but not each other.

Later I asked my girlfriend about it, and we had discussed it before. She says as butches they are the ones that will get beaten up, they are the ones that get the attitude. She doesn't like to make people feel uncomfortable so she doesn't like to be in their face with it. I said that if more lesbian/gay couples showed PDA that it would become more acceptable, not such a shock to the poor little hetro's lives.

So... my question(s) is, do butches think this is true, is it more dangerous for you to show PDA? and is it more common for femmes to want to be publicly affectionate?

How do you identify and what are your thoughts on PDA?

I never really think about it because I am an affectionate person. I am not sure if that has to do with how I identify or not, but because I have not ever personally had an issue, I haven't had to worry about it.

Thoughts...

Hmmm
 

I think it's an individual choice, not a gender or gender presentation choice. Do you live in an area where being gay is a big deal?

I think it's a personal preference based on past experience and comfort level. I identify as butch and I have no issues at all showing PDA's. Luckily I've never experienced any negativity or backlash because of it. I don't do it to piss people off, prove a point, or to make some kind of political statement. I do it because I'm just a very loving and affectionate person. I want the woman I'm with to feel adored and to know that I'm proud to be by her side!

Although, I don't think its a gender thing, I do think its a past experience thing for most folks. Therefore, it may appear that more of butch/TG/FTM avoiding PDA.

From my own experience I have witnessed and lived through more issues being who I am and how I express myself than the femmes I have known in my life time. Like some others, I too was raised in a time of beatings.. name calling...and death threats for anyone who was remotely perceived as gay (whether true or not mind you).

So, I tend to be more conservative with my PDA. However, I am not against it and I don't push my partner away when she wants to show PDA...nor do I get mad at folks that show it around me.

I'm not butch so I can only answer from my own perspective as a tough, combative femme. Many years ago, long before I knew myself better, I presented more androgynously and had a few femme-ish girlfriends. Once I was busy kissing one of those long-ago, somewhat femme-er than me girlfriends goodbye at the subway when a nasty dude yelled something very threatening at us. I promptly gave him the finger with a hand just freed from embracing the gf. I did NOT stop kissing her. A few busy NYers rushing for the subway snickered. At the stupid, nasty dude. I was fully prepared for the physical altercation that never happened.

There's no way to know exactly why I got away with that one. It could have just been that we're New Yorkers and it was rush hour, but I thought then, and am more sure now, that if I had looked more traditionally butch I would have faced a far more hostile audience. We were young, white, long haired girls, so we had tremendous privilege. Using my acknowledged privilege to challenge bigots made me feel really powerful. Yes, I just wanted to kiss my gf goodbye at the subway like anyone else, but it added frisson to do it AND say F-YOU to a bigot.

I understand that it's very different outside of bigger cities, and particularly outside of THIS big city, but even in more remote areas PDA is a lot less shocking for many these days because of TV. When the above incident happened the number of same-sex PDA events that had been portrayed on TV were so small that we all knew them and could discuss them in one short, critical conversation.

It's likely that many of us are still behaving in ways that haven't changed with our changing environments. If we were beaten up for PDA in our youth, or taught that a beating was likely, that would have had a lasting influence.

Do I think that butches have had to deal with the actual beatings in a way that I haven't? HELL yeah. And I honour them for it.

I am much more likely to initiate a PDA, just because like others here I have never been beaten or harassed for just being me. My wife is getting more comfortable with it all the time, and I think that's because it's with me.

There are few people who would say anything to me or to us once they get a look at my expression...even when not angry, I have a go to Hell/ don't fuck with me look about me which most people would never test.

LOL smart folks

I live in Canada in a big City, it has never been an issue for me, nor do I think it should be.

I agree, that it is a past experience thing, so does that mean that more butches are harassed more then the femmes? I know I have never been.

I agree, no one needs that.


I think it is sad how much our society has moved away from touch in all regards. Any pda, teacher/student, step parent/step child, father/son, homeless/anyone and so much more. We attach such a sexual connotation to touch and touch is so important for our emotional/spiritual/physical health.

We are so immune to violence that we don't flinch at that but a gay couple holding hands will send some over the edge. What is wrong with this picture? Everything.

Thoughts
 

I think it's cultural as well, Latinos are a touchy bunch, my mother never was but other members of my family are, there is hugging, kissing and always a hand or a touch somewhere. I am like that with most of my chosen family and they back, all my chosen family have some sort of need for *touch* it's always been part of my life. Some American people are on the more reserved side, I say American because I've been around other cultures that are just as touchy as we are (Latinos). I dunno, I do know that as a queer I watch more who I touch and how outside of the circles I mentioned above. Once some folks (not all) catch on that you aren't hetero like them, then either they get weird, the vibe gets weird, or they flat out think a touch means you are interested or that you are being oogie gay... I dunno that's a thought.

Hmmm
 

I was more refering to how hetero folk act when they peg you as queer/gay/different/etc/etc, with touch from us. I was also more just talking about laruss' bringing up that we as a whole (society) are not tactile due to people more into violence.

I am aware of my surroundings more here in the South than I am say in Portland. I find either way that if someone is *bothered* or what I like to call homophobic it isn't going to matter where one lives, bigotry taints all our communities.

Let me preface this by saying, PDA is a good thing as with most things in moderation. I like others am not a fan of anyone trying to give someone a tonsillectomy in public no matter who you are.

As a butch, I'm not afraid to show affection to my partner, I'm blessed that I live in a tolerant society but we do have some who still think they have the right to dictate my actions. My experience has been that the more masculine you look seems to predicate the unsolicited abuse you may receive. I am for all intense purposes a soft butch, not particularly masculine looking, so although I may receive looks my stature and the look I give them will make them think twice about approaching me.

It's often been said that "femmes" who are straight looking get away with more and I believe that, this may be because it feeds into the fantasy that some have. Butches have a tendency to get attention no matter what, it's how we respond to the attention which may alter encounters for the next person.

I am Old School, so walk on the outside to protect my girl, I will hold her hand, we will walk arm in arm and I will show affection with no regard unless it is unsafe to do so. Only through our actions can we help others understand that affection and love between anyone is not only okay but should be the norm.

Hugs to everyone~

Hmm slippery slop isn't it. Let me respond like this...that I think its different. Femme's deal with their own type of harassment. I can not speak for others...merely from my own experiences and from what I have seen, was told, and/or witnessed.

Since, I have not lived a femme life...I can not say that femme's are less likely to be harassed. I just think its different. Femme's that I have known in the past have commented about being able to "hide" when they needed to..so they could remain "safe." Where as for those who where butch/TG/ FTM safety was a major issue because they (me included) could not hide...the way we dressed..walked..talked...acted drew the attention of those one would not wish to draw attention from.

Back in my day beatings happened often outside of clubs...walking down the streets, outside of homes, lost jobs for many...comments thrown no matter the place..etc.

Even though times have changed these things haven't gone away..culture is a huge part of it. Depending on where you live...the religions that surround you...the age groups...the mentality of the people you deal with daily will all effect how one response in the future (no matter what it is).

Our past will either make us shy away...or give us the F*** you mentality...or for some (like me) it depends on my mood and my surroundings as to how I respond in general.

I have dealt with watching friends get hurt and killed...I have myself been attacked physically and verbally for who I am. So, now I look around..see what I am dealing with...assess the safety and think about those I am with, then deal with it in the best interest of my family.

If my partner is with me and/or the kids..then their safety comes first and for most. So, my pride and F*** you attitude needs to be placed aside.

i too am aware of my surroundings. It is so true bigotry haunts all of us who are not cut from the same mold as the heterosexual crowd.

I am very affectionate by nature. I love holding hands, having My arms around her, or My hand on the small of her back. I will also kiss/hug in public in a tasteful way. I do feel comfortable doing so but I still get worried at times depending on the crowd and where I am geographically.

When I lived in MN, I never thought twice about it. I can't remember ever getting a negative comment from anyone. When I lived in OK over 10 years ago, it was something I would not do for fear of My safety, whether actual or believed. It was something to think about.

Now that I'm back here in OK, I have been more openly affectionate but I do keep an eye on My surroundings no matter where I am. I was recently visiting My gf in Pittsburgh and we were walking along the river hand in hand. It was a very busy place and I felt comfortable until we were coming up on a boat full of about six guys who you could tell were drinking. I asked her if she thought it was safe for us to continue holding hands and she said yes. So we did and thankfully nothing happened.

Sometimes I think I worry too much but I try not to let it stop Me when I want to be affectionate. I'm just a little more cautious depending on which part of the country I am in.

Oh... I typically check with the other person to make sure they are okay with PDA before I go smacking My lips on them or holding their hand.

Here in Malaysia, my ex was very loath to hold hands (never any cheek kissing), sometimes using the hot weather (sweaty hands) as an explanation or just that we're in a homophobic society. But I see young butch femme couples walking around holding hands all the time. Or, walking very close together. (Or having sex in the toilets, but that's another story).

I don't know if it would be different - better or worse - if I were with a white partner or not. Certainly years ago in NZ I had yelling from passing cars, stones thrown, and other fun stuff while with a girlfriend and holding hands.

It was funny being in Korea. I could walk around holding any woman's hand and no one would blink an eyelid because it's culturally acceptable. I would often hold hands or walk arm in arm with my straight mate. But walk around NZ, hand in hand with one of my sisters. :| For them it's all about "someone might think we're gay."

Like lots of other people, I'm very affectionate. I'm not fond of tonsil hockey though. :|

I've had yelling from cars for homophobia, sexism, size (when I was fat), and highschool idiots just being random assholes for no reason at all. It's not stopped me from holding someone's hand.
I've lived in a quite a few cities in a few different countries and traveled quite a bit I have only been very mindful about it in Indonesia, Malaysia, Panama and small towns in the states.
I am absolutely fine with arm in arm, hand holding, a nice kiss.
I do hug and cuddle if we are standing watching fire works or something but I don't have my legs over hers and strumming anyones hair if I'm on the tube or something. hand holding is something I love to do.

In london, as we approached a group of 7 boys who were drinking I went to let go of my partner's (at the time) hand. She said
"No. don't let go. they see you let go and they will know we're afraid and that's much worse. it's like dogs. keep your calm and don't be nervous."

we walked through their pack and one of them kicked me and the red mist decended and I spun around and kicked back. they laughed at the kid I hit and they said some silly shit and kept walking.

I've been attacked quite a few times for just being female. I'm really not afraid to punch people anymore. but I have never lived in a country with hand guns either.

But no. the harassment and attacks I've had have not discouraged me from holding hands in public.

one ex of mind would not hold hands. she said she thought is was childish. I told her I thought that was BS. she was scared. I pointed to tons of adults "are they childish? are they? do they look childish? how bout them? I think you are scared of being spotted for a homo. cause, like, you are so stealth about it by the way you look, right? no one knows you are a homo! better not hold hands and out yourself!" I was laughing and taking the piss.

she told me to shut it, but I was a bit relentless about it. she always got very PDA after a couple of drinks so I'm pretty damn sure it was fear of something. It was oxford. it's not like anything would have happened save a very unlikely shit comment. big whoop someone voices disapproval. jesus. never had that before. not sure how I'd manage to cope with the opinions of someone I don't know or care about...

My exwife wouldn't do it. she was scared. though I'm not sure why, having come from an extremely progressive country. Then after we were married she realised she had every fucking right to hold my hand, I was her goddamn wife. So she finally started holding my hand. It used to really hurt my feelings, though I tried not to feel hurt, it really did - that she would allow disapproving looks be more important than holding my hand. So finally I felt she had overcome her lack of "right" to hold my hand in public. Did we get snotty looks? sometimes. One wine and cheese canal cruise a table full of Italians were being extremely rude and glaring at me. She actually spoke up and told them that gay marriage was legal in holland and to suck it up or leave.

:) that was very appreciated. and the rest of the people on the cruise glared at the group who were being homophobic.

Things have changed for me, over the years, in my personal experience.

When I was a young lesbian and holding hands with my femme girlfriend, there would always be looks and comments. Sometimes scary ones.

With my long-term ex butch, if I held her hand or her arm; it was much worse. She always was called sir at first, until they saw her bosoms-then, you could almost see the rage cross their faces, as they came to the realization that she was female.

Honestly, I always felt that because I was young and attractive, it particularly pissed off hostile men and teen boys: "what are you doing with her baby, I got something here for you"; as they grabbed their dicks.

What I have really come to grasp, in a very real and concrete way, is that as I age, I do become more invisible to straight (potentially hostile) bio men and that PDA between two older women only rates a passing glance.

My GF has very short salt and pepper hair. More salt than pepper. I clearly no longer look 25 (or 35 or 45 or 55....).

Now, we hold hands frequently (which scared the heck out of me when I was young) and wherever we are, an occasional raised eyebrow is all we get.

When I was younger, I remember reading about how one becomes more invisible to others as aging progresses. I now get to experience that phenomenon, in real life.

All of us have seen older women (and very much older women) holding the arm of another woman and unless one is really butch, we don't think twice about it, do we?

My perspective on the issue.

Oh, I do hate overt PDA's regardless of gender or sexual identities. My first thought is: "Get a room already"!

I'm not into pda. I'm fine holding hands in public, an arm around me, a quick kiss hello/good-bye but that's enough.

It's interesting to me how it's shifted after only being with women for my life, and now being with a man (trans, but for all public knowledge, he's just a guy). When I was with women I would have the guard up when hand holding, etc, in public. Especially at something like a family event, or around my daughters friends. My ex and I often had absolutely no physical contact in those situations. Now, with homophobia not being an issue, I'm still not into pda because in my opinion and comfort zone for how I present myself, it's just not cool. But I also have some... I don't know- straight guilt/privilege awareness that he and I are pretty darn safe to hold hands, snuggle, etc in public. We laugh about it, about how "normal" we appear, especially when we're walking around with our kids and their friends. But it's still weird to be on the other side.

Now that, I can get behind. We do a lot of that. Especially when in public with the kids. Because they are teenagers and very fun to embarrass.

I live in the north west corner of Louisiana,It is still heavly counted as the bible belt.Now in this year of 2013 it is a bit less likely to get you in trouble for PDA's if you are glbt but not by much.We have three gay bars hear where anything go's,but in public full on spit swaping will get you some big frowns and most probly a word or two from someone that also includes the stright folks around hear.Recently I was in a store where a young stright couple were in the check out line makeing out big time leaveing nothing to the immaganation,they got called down by the manager who saw them as wellas several of the customers in line.Personaly I have no trouble with PDA's as in hand holding,keeping my hand in the small of her back or even sneaking a kiss or two.I am an affectoniate person to a falt I just beleave in treating her like a lady at all times.I also can be a rascally old devile when the time is right...once I was discusing this subject with a group at a pflag meting about how people really form judgements about gay people.I told them being yourself is fantastik,pda's and behavior in public is ok at the right time but there is no substitute for class with good behavior no matter who you are.

This! Exactly Anya. In the case of my ex-butch (nearly 20 years ago now), she had very small breasts and never bothered with any kind of bra. She was a bus driver and the number of people who initially thought she was a man then realised she wasn't and were enraged - the ugly looks on their faces! I don't miss that (only because I've been single for quite some time).

I haven't had to deal with this much, yet, as I haven't had a lot of romantic experience since I started transitioning. However, I really don't care too much if people disapprove, if the right person is kissing me. As far as I am concerned, if they start complaining, I'll baptize them at the nearest source of water.

I LOVE touching people. Luckily, I am from a place where it is very acceptable to touch people (people kiss friends and colleagues on the cheek to greet and regularly hug people hello and goodbye) Actually, NOT touching people is considered sort of rude around here.

HOWEVER, there still can be the clenchy reaction to an obvious couple smooching hello or walking down the street hand in hand. I have only ever had ONE very rude experience with an Ex in Texas when we got spit on and followed by a guy who really needed a better thesaurus, but in general I have to say I have been lucky to battle nothing more than the occasional dirty look when I hold hands or snuggle up in a movie theater.

My wife is not very touchy feelie in public partially because she is a very private person, but also because she has had the crap kicked out of her and her car keyed in the past for being Butch.

We have been together for going on 9 years and it has been difficult for me at times, as I am very affectionate and love for others to know she is my Butch. She is hesitant to show much affection in public still, but she has gotten much better. She will now hold my hand and touch me more in public, if she feels she is in a safe space. She shows her care for me in other ways, hand at my back, carrying packages, opening doors for me, etc. She is getting more comfortable also. I think it has helped that our city is now so large, with many college campuses, and younger Urbanites, who are fine with LGBT people, so they don't bat an eyelash when they see two men or women holding hands. We see it around town more and more everyday.

Great topic and like the comments. For the most part, as an FTM, society perceives me as a biomale. However, one can never be too careful. So, I still think of this. But as a butch I lived it. Just a few points to add.
The one fact that I always come back to (remimd myself of )when it comes to PDA's... one, that i will not always be with her. in addition, any crazy, insecure or jealous person or persons could be watching US. That is what gets to me.
So, i would refrain in certain sitiuations from showing public affection. People would see US together and remember her and I was not always with her.
And really, a fight wouldnt bother me. I know cause i rather enjoy punching people like that.
The part that would freak me out was and is this...I would tell myself...they want to fight you..but, what would they do to her if they got her alone? Not pretty. Fights are nothing compaired to what they would want to do to her.

good point...but it brings to mind other things that I have listened to from others I know. Those things you worried about happening to her...would be the sort of people that would do the same thing to a butch/tg/ftm (that has not completed surgery).

Just want to put that out there.. just because a person is masculine by nature does not protect them from that sort of vile attack.

the movie...Boys Don't Cry...is a prime example

There have been some great comments on this thread.

I'm pretty affectionate, maybe it's the Latino thing. And I'm lucky enough to live in a fairly open urban area, although I've had some not-so-great experiences with people yelling (and the occasional thing thrown from a car).

I don't think my affection stems from gender presentation as much as it's what I grew up with. I do think my surroundings at times, but more often than not am comfortable holding hands, putting my arm around her and depending on the environment kissing her.

There was one time when my spouse and I were walking in downtown Palo Alto (during the Prop 8 debacle). There was a street preacher bashing gay marriage, well, bashing gay anything. So my spouse and started making out right behind him, to much applause and cheers.

Very true. Lower surgery or not. Gay or straight. Rape happens to masculine
people and biomales too. I guess just to try and prove some sick point. Or maybe a biomale who likes males but won't admit it.

Sorry if I derailed the thread. But, my point is, there are nasty people out there and they don't wear a sign on their foreheads that let's me know who they are.
Too bad those nasty people don't get a manditory tattoo on their foreheads while incarcerated. If, in fact, they do get caught.

On a lighter note,
One time, I was walkin hand and hand with my very feminine ex. She lived in a well known lesbian neighborhood. Some dudes driving by real slow yelled out, "dyke" and maybe something else. Well, we turned around, holding hands and she immediatedly yelled," suck my dick ***hole". It was awesome.

I really like and agree with what you shared. That is why I shared. Instinctually, I think it is harder to turn the other cheek and walk on. But, when I look at the big picture, tomorrow is more important. That's a win.

My partner of 16 years had an advantage, he walked with a cane most of the time, or held my arm to avoid falling. We did not do any PDA past that point.

Another person I was paired with for a short time, I could not keep my hands off. However, it was confined to hanging on her, holding her arm at grocery stores or kissing her shoulder. I'm short, can't reach her lips. Unless on tiptoe. Sometimes we got looks, but since she is taller, stronger, tougher than most Bio males it's usually smiles.

But not around family, especially Grandmother.

The staff at our favorite places to eat thought we were cute together.
But that said we live in a tourist area, and she is good at spotting bad situations at a distance. Regardless of who you are, it is prudent to be aware of your surroundings.

I don't define holding hands or giving a quick kiss PDA. PDA to me is making out or something that a teenager might do.

It is not unusual for me to hold my partner's hand when I am walking through a parking lot, walking down main street looking at shops, etc. I give her a quick kiss hello when I am meeting her somewhere (restaurant, body shop, anywhere public you may need to meet your partner).

I don't even notice if it makes people uncomfortable. I don't look. I don't care. 20 years ago when I was going to get my ass kicked for walking down the street holding my girlfriend's hand I didn't do it. Now? Unless I am in a place where I need to be concerned, I don't really give a shit.

I think that after years of being a queer you can quickly size up a situation to know if holding hands/quick kiss is safe. I don't think I even think about it anymore, just shift to not touching if needed. But, that is very rare nowadays. Unless I have to worry about our safety, OR I think that holding hands will create an extended uncomfortable social situation for me or TF, I don't give a shit.

I would suggest that for people who are weird about touching in safe areas, that they are struggling with some internalized homophobia, or are emotionally carrying with them some past trauma (being hurt) that they can't shake. No judgement on that, just a thought.

Side note: For reference, I would guestimate that 75%-85% of the people in our area feel some discomfort when they see us holding hands (unless I am passing). It is very unusual to see a gay couple holding hands in our area (I don't think I have ever seen it except for on the local college campus).

Gemme, you misunderstood.

To clarify: I was saying that a possible reason that a person who is typically affectionate in ALL OTHER environments but in SAFE Non-Gay places do NOT touch their partner, perhpas one or two things are going on:
1) They have been gay bashed -verbally or other (this is what i meant by trauma), s0 they area bit gun shy.
2) They are ashamed and/or embarrassed by their sexually (this is whar i meant by internalized homophobia)

I read the coversation to be about people being different in their displays of affection when they are in situations where they could be judged for their sexuality.

Does this make more sense?